Wilhelm

Well trolled, Mr. Scholar. 2 minutes a day towards total domination of your foes. This is the way.

Edit: Apologies - you gave a real concern and I was making jokes. I know what it's like living with the 'worrying about money's cloud hanging over you. No fun! It looks like the best advice I know has already been said in this thread...

I almost bought one of those from a Voodoo practitioner one time. Looking back on it (who he is, what he's working with), I'm really glad I didn't!

I'm just coming out of the lifetime money problem thing. I'm afraid I don't have any metaphysical insights, though I spent a heck of a lot of time looking for them (ending up with a lot of new age silliness). I spent a lot of time on this and am happy to give practical advice here or by PM, but I'm afraid it's just gonna be the stuff you'd expect from someone who went to business school...

You know - it was part of the 'lore' when I was studying Yoga, but I never stopped to think of it in empirical terms, I just thought "Ok, this is the lore." And kept going. I'm not sure I ever believed it or disbelieved it. It was almost like studying Middle-Earth! Edit: Oops! It looks like we're getting off this topic. I agree with the other folks here - unless there's a practical purpose to the information it makes for a rather silly debate

There was a LOT of good information mixed in with the craziness yesterday, and I hope to get to all of it. First though I'm going in chronological order so I wanted to respond to dwai That's very interesting. I was studying in the school of one of those 'rockstars' you mentioned, and left for that very reason! (Inability to get close, and access to great teachings elsewhere) Reading these over - I imagine they are relative, eh? It seems having a high degree of these qualities would almost be a gauge of an individual's attainment, no? Similar to the seven factors of awakening? I appreciate this - there are some hard to miss gauges of progress here That's very interesting, thank you! I'm hesitant to draw more parallels to other theories, but I had no idea Vedanta also described 'stages' to awakening (while also holding the view that Self-Realization is imminent and self-evident, and pardon me if that paraphrasing was incorrect) And this preparatory work includes the qualities in your linked Sadhana Chatushtaya article? Self-Realization being another word for brahmajnana/tattvajnana, or as a word for jivanamukti?

OP was targeting delusion using an example of a claim to enlightenment, and the conversation evolved into a discussion of the nuances of the stages of enlightenment and disagreements between traditions. Then something else happened which I can't explain, Edit: though whatever it was, there seemed to be a LOT of it around the world yesterday

You've seen this thread already, eh?

Now THATS a quality thread derailment

I can see why that would be a hot topic of debate. Its all philosophy for me at this point, one way or the other. I just do the practice, and try to adopt the mindset of the people who originated it.

Cool and unexpected discussion! Apologies for un-derailing (re-railing?), I'm just going to respond to a few people again. The post got a bit long so I'm @ ing folks, hope you all don't mind! @dwai, thank you. I'm going to be looking into this today and will update the post with a proper response. Thanks for the tips! @freeform Thank you very much! This is also how I have been told progression is measured in what I am studying. In your examples, discernment is almost taken out of the equation and left up to the seniors who understand the signs of progress - but what about discernment as it relates to self-inquiry? Although maybe not central to such a 'tangible' path, it would seem to me that building a quality of sorting 'useful' from 'not-useful' would certainly make the practice of meditation more efficient (especially when the mentally oriented practices might not as many tangible signs of progress, at least initially)! Thanks for the information freeform, and the video dmattwads! If anyone is interested, Damo Mitchell just posted a talk discussion the implications of several levels of enlightenment from his own experience. The whole talk is great but skip to 47 minutes for that topic. @NungaliWoah! I've never heard of anything that well organized from a Western system! (though my experience there is super limited) That's all really interesting. Is there a public resource I could learn more about it? Thanks for sharing your practical experience!

This was my understanding as well. The law is 'cause and effect', and if the chain of events is complicated enough that we can't identify the causes, we call the event 'luck'.

This one for me! Hmmm... Could it be better said that clinging is the cause of suffering?

Thank you all for your help! I'm going to now poke and prod a few of you for more information. Sorry for the trouble! This seems reasonable to me. Was it your experience that these gut feelings always came through clearly? If so, then I think you had a 'clearer' gut than me! Many times I thought I was going with my 'gut', but it was just my brain tricking me into believing it again! After lots of work, I might be able to partially rely on this method Strongly agree! Still getting used to the quote system - quoted this out of order. Thank you very much! That seems a very well thought out method to stop people from wasting a lifetime! Love both of these examples. Very cool. I'm aware of physical examinations in my tradition (as in your body reflecting quite clearly what you've accomplished), but I'd never heard of intellectual and philosophical tests (other then Koans, I suppose - and all I know about those is that they're called Koans) Really? Is that by design - so no one will attach false meanings to the attainment (such as calling it an attainment)? This is what the fellows whose material I'm studying do as well. Thank you! That sounds quite similar to the definition from Swami Sarvapriyananda's video here (which, incidentally, I may have watched based on a reccomendation you gave in another thread). My question is - how do you differentiate between spiritual attainment and mundane charisma? I am definitely not at the same place you are in terms of spiritual progression, but I could say I've felt uplifted and 'taken in' by people with a range of motives (even one insurance salesman!), and probably some less-than-savoury cults of personality are able to draw well-meaning people in this way. Does this method have prerequisites? Could you be more specific? Urban Dictionary's takes on this word were very funny but possibly not what you were getting at! That's very fortunate that you were able to live close enough to your teachers to observe such things! (Or maybe it came with their teachings - the fellows whose material I study gave me this information as well) I see what you're saying. Popularity of priestly/monastic skills (i.e. prayers) definitely point to something, but as you're saying not necessarily the 'big thing'. Me too! To a certain point, and then it gets in my way Thank you very much! That was really fun to read. The first time I asked a question to one of the individuals whose material I'm studying I felt something very similar - as if he'd discerned all my worst qualities from the one single (seemingly innocent) question, and that if I didn't move that very second something horrible was going to happen. So... I got up and moved aaaargh. Next time I'll keep my ass planted, just in case. It looks like you've got more coming, so I won't add anything else I think I see what you're getting at though I imagine you're paraphrasing because what makes sense to a fool (for example, me) might not get them anywhere. One theme I saw in a few of the answers seemed to point towards discernment. In your responses - could you mention whether this is an inherent skill, and if not, how it can be cultivated? Thank you all again!

Courage in the sense of the young naive anime protagonist - not knowing or not caring enough to be afraid, but becoming admired because it always works out well in the end for cartoon characters Someone said that the difference between brave and stupid is the brave person's plan worked on some level (obviously not universally applicable, just adding to the point).

I ask you sir Even if you amass a mountain of gold, can you buy off impermenance? Seeking no way to leave the path of delusion. Talented and virtuous enough to have no match in the world, Even so, you are by no means a true man. a hundred years is like a spark made by colliding stones, A lifetime's undertaking like a wandering bubble, Craving nothing but material gain and prominence, Yet having no concern for the ever creeping decrepitude of your body and countenance, I ask you, sir, Even if you amass a mountain of gold, can you buy off impermenance? Though human life has a limit of a hundred years, The length of life, whether it be difficult or smooth, cannot be known Yesterday, riding a horse through the town, Today a sleeping corpse in a coffin; Family and wealth cast off, They are not your possessions, With evil deeds still lingering, You cannot fool yourself. Making no effort to search for it, How could you possibly come upon the way of great enlightenment? Having come on it, and yet making no effort in practice, In a word, you are a fool! -Chang Po-tuan

Cool stuff! Do you have a standing practice as well, where you can develop enough Song to eventually control the 'spontaneous eruptions'?

Oh, ok - I see what you're saying from the picture. Your body wants to spin around while you're sitting, without you directing the process? Sound like Zi Fa Gong to me. Can't say it's not something else, but I had the same reaction when I was at the peak of that process.

Yup! I'm with you so far Hm! Tension created by closing of the joints, as in during moving practices? You might be deeper into this than me, friend, which would limit my ability to answer this. I experience contraction one of two ways depending which mechanic I'm using: A. Muscles contract in chains which close the joints as a consequence and transfer force as far as the contraction is maintained B. Tension is stored in the fascial structure through proper alignments, and transferred through the mechanism of releasing a contact point (with the ground or the opponent) which stretches the tissues and further opens the joints through whichever line is being stressed If it's true that this all originates in the joints, and then travels 'outwards' to the muscles and fascia, then I'm certainly unaware of it. Yup! On the same page here. Cool experience with the venous system - I'm not sure how it directly ties into the conductivity but it might. Yeah, getting out of the way as in not applying any strong mental directions to the practice, which would interfere with the natural conductivity. Makes sense to me. Great! My experience as well. Hm! I'm not quite sure what you mean here. I think I know what you're getting at, but it sounds like you're talking about being a shapeshifter lol. Also great! Who's doing the co-ordinating? You, or your body? Again - really cool stuff!

Hmmm... Yes. I know what some of these words mean. (Gonna look at it properly now, gimme a minute)

That's a weird one to wrap your head around, isn't it? Could it be said that fear is a de-evolution of wisdom, then? Like when we lose wisdom we experience fear (and same for courage -> grief)? Since you're talking 5 element theory, I imagine it's not ideal to isolate one or two aspect like that.

Nice take! I love that picture, as well (is that Samurai Jack?). One of my favorite things is someone who's (for the right reasons): A. Out of their depth B. Smart enough to know it C. Not going to stop despite A & B

Thanks! His book - Ladder of Divine Ascent looks right on target! Best wishes with your spiritual development.

Sorry for the bump. I came across a couple of cool accounts of what may or may not be a lofty spiritual attainment manifesting in Christian Saints, and wasn't sure where to post it (similar to how when Moses came down from the mountain, he was said to be too luminous to look at directly). According to what I've learned about the Eastern Orthodox Church, this was the minimum qualification for salvation (meaning over the past two-thousand years, only a handful of their flock have gone to heaven! It's a wonder they retain any membership when it's barely an afternoon at the river for the same deal with some other denominations) St. Basil St. Seraphim of Serov Joseph of Panelphysis None of them seemed to dissolve st the time of their death, so I'm not sure if these accounts (assuming they're valid) equate to the eastern 'light-body' attainment. Anecdotally I've heard that the old testament can be read in the same vein as a Daoist alchemical text - I'd be very interested to know if anyone has detailed information about spiritual development from any such Christian traditions (Eastern Orthodoxy, top Catholic orders, Coptics maybe? etc.).

Hey there! My friend teaches Nei Gong out of Montreal. She studied under Damo Mitchell, and is a skilled practitioner as well as acupuncturist. I will pm you her info.