Ilovecoffee

Void, I think we've made our position very clear. Lot's of people want to claim we are "western" MoPai followers as if what Jim and Kosta brought home is different than what the Indonesian students were taught. Jim actually made it further than most of the Indonesian students and was tested each level by John himself and John verified Jim passed the test to progress. The only difference between the Indonesian school and us is they if they are lucky would be able to progress to level 4 and be allowed to copy the MoPai manual written in ancient Chinese, and we don't have that option. The teachings we do have though are the same as what they have. We don't comment on what was taught because we can't here in this environment. As to Gary Clyman, I don't think anyone of our group that I am aware of is interested in him.

Earl, There just isn't any way to sugar coat our position without outright lying about it. If there is no objective evidence with scientists and medical doctors present to rule out fraud, we aren't interested in it. That at its core offends people here and there is nothing at all we can do about it, other than lie about our position.

Unfortunately, Zenmode life isn't fair. No amount of begging is going to change anything. We have a whole group of people here on this forum, too afraid to mention they practice MoPai or are members of our group because they don't want to be discriminated against or banned. This is our cross to bear. You will have to learn to let them spit in your face, and say "thank you, sir, may I have another" until they get bored and leave you alone. What you have to understand is this is their forum, for whatever strange reason Sean thinks these people need to run this forum, and or are doing a good job at running it. He somehow is blind to what we have to put up with, or just doesn't care. Ultimately we don't own this forum, and we are not in charge of it, so we have no choice. Freedom of speech does not apply to privately owned forums.

Unfortunately we can't talk about our experiences here, not because we don't want to but because we can't. All we can do is present the evidence we do have, and tell people to come see for themselves.

We do actually have rich, engaging discussions in an environment that allows for it, here that just isn't possible.

We want objective evidence, with scientists present to rule out fraud before we invest in a practice. If you don't feel that is necessary, then I guess you feel differently than we do.

If that is how you see it, so be it. I would rather have just the first few levels of something we have objective evidence for, than a complete system we cannot verify.

No. Just because millions of people believe something is true, doesn't make it so. We do our best to firmly ground our beliefs in the best objective evidence we have, and in our own direct observation.

Mudfoot, no if anything we will die out, we work hard to weed out newagers.

Brian, Our mindset is that personal testimony is unreliable. Even if millions of people believe something, that doesn't mean it is true. Objective evidence, with scientists and medical doctors present to rule out fraud, is something that is necessary at least for us before we will consider investing our lives into a practice. We do not want anyone accepting anything on faith, or on someone else's personal testimony. For some reason, this way of viewing things here invokes so much anger and so much hatred, and really it shouldn't. There is no reason being reasonable, rational and down to earth should cause you people to act like this.

Brian, Literally there is nothing we can do to convince you, so we aren't going to try. The best I can do is wish you the best on your journey.

Ahh, well I hope you have fun with that indeed. Best wishes.

If you don't accept it, you don't accept it. If you find just believing stuff because people say so a better option, then that is what you should do. Best wishes on your practice.

Ruling out fraud is an increasingly difficult thing to do. There are people you could fly up to the upper atmosphere, and would believe what they were seeing was a hoax created with LCD panels outside the windows, and that the earth really is flat. This doesn't rule out fraud, but even if John had been taken to a university and x-rayed, for many people they would still argue fraud. This is the best we can do, if you don't accept it, you don't accept it. Best wishes.

Jonesboy, Unfortunately that is not an option. We present the best objective evidence we have, with a team of scientists and medical doctors present to rule out fraud. We invite others who accept this evidence to come see for themselves. That's the best we can do. If you are convinced it's a hoax, don't pursue it.

Yes, if you choose to believe a device was missed in their search that is what you choose to believe.

If what you see with your own eyes isn't good enough, it isn't good enough. That's all you are going to get.

The video is less than 2 minutes. I get the feeling you are refusing to watch it because your mind is already made up.

Jonesboy, John was stripped to a shirt and underwear, by a team of scientists and medical doctors, and then checked for metal with a metal detector before his demo. They went even further to take him to a random location they chose to rule out any external devices on the property. If you wish to believe they missed some device, perhaps inside a body cavity, or some other trickery that is certainly fine.

If you choose to believe that's what this is, then don't pursue MoPai. Best wishes.

qofq, Like I said if you are not interested in objective evidence with scientists and medical doctors present to rule out fraud, then you shouldn't pursue MoPai. We do know that John lit the LED, that he was stripped to his shirt and underwear, checked for metal, gave a demo, and then was taken to a random location the team of scientists and medical doctors chose for another demo. We don't know if the team missed some device, or if there was some other trickery at play. I feel it is reasonable to conclude the team did the best they could to rule out such fraud if you disagree that is fine. If this isn't enough for you, don't pursue MoPai.

If having objective evidence with scientists and medical doctors present to rule out fraud is not important to you, don't pursue MoPai. The only reason to pursue MoPai is that you require that level of objective evidence before you will pursue a system.