Desmonddf

I do believe you'll find plenty of practices which deal with the joints. Lian Gong, for instance, seems to be very good for the upper joints. However, I'm not sure about QiGong practices.

The Mind doesn't manifest until WAY after the manifestation of the Yin and Yang. Remember the Taiji? Limitless, Limited, Four Phenomena, Trigrams ? Unless mind can exist without "existence", as this is one of the trigrams, then it is the product of something, not the origin of all. Professor Ian Stevenson has a very interesting approach to this. Reincarnation tales are way more common than most people believe - they are just shuned asside as children being overly-imaginative. However, do remind that Mind isn't the same as Brain. This is basic psychology. The Mind remembers all, but the Brain is formed during life. Our past experiences and lives are stored in the Mind. If you want to remember then, then you have to access your mind. Then the info can be "dumped" on your brain. That, or you just get an error on the process of reincarnation and ends up, indeed, with fragments of your past brain being imprinted on the present one.

The Mind doesn't manifest until WAY after the manifestation of the Yin and Yang. Remember the Taiji? Limitless, Limited, Four Phenomena, Trigrams ? Unless mind can exist without "existence", as this is one of the trigrams, then it is the product of something, not the origin of all. Professor Ian Stevenson has a very interesting approach to this. Reincarnation tales are way more common than most people believe - they are just shuned asside as children being overly-imaginative. However, do remind that Mind isn't the same as Brain. This is basic psychology. The Mind remembers all, but the Brain is formed during life. Our past experiences and lives are stored in the Mind. If you want to remember then, then you have to access your mind. Then the info can be "dumped" on your brain. That, or you just get an error on the process of reincarnation and ends up, indeed, with fragments of your past brain being imprinted on the present one.

I suppose you don't want to become obese like people have been assuming, but simply get rid of having a WAY too low fat content under your skin. Being too skinny will make you prune to disease and can be as harmfull as being obese, so I understand were you're going eith this. Now, there are three kinds of fat ny TCM. There's humidity, phlegm and "meats". Humidy and phlegm are bad fats. The kind of thing which make you obese. The "meats", however, are the things which constitute your underskin fat and muscles. Now, to gain "meats" you'll need to tonify your spleen while also increasing your Yin and heat consumption. This need to be done concomitantly. If you do only one of them, then you'll end up sick. In order to do that, you would need a lot of exercise and lifestyle changes, so I suppose that would take too much time. I have a girlfriend who has the same problem as you, and I can say that most of this "poor absorption" problem comea actually from deeply-ingrained mental issues. Not like you're crazy, but common neurosys we all carry. They could origin from this life or others. In order to help you with your desire, henceforth, I would recomend to make a simplifyed tea cerimony for yourself everyday. Fifteen minutes should be enough, but it would give you the calm and feel needed to listen to what your body carves and desires. Once you do that, achieving a good weight with a healthy amount of fat should be enough. The objective is to reduce the mental restrains you unconsciously put on yourself and allow for you to listen to your "meat sack" (body). It will know what to eat

Not the complete process, but I've managed to progress a little bit, generating heat.

Well, the greater difference between the mystical and the phatologic is if you either experience and grow, being capable of taking things with a grain of salt (keeping a little bit of well-being and open-mindness), or if you defend that what you saw happened how you think it happened litteraly. As someone who uses enteogens with a certain frequency, I'm more than aware that many of the things I see there are a product of my mind. But as someone who also is a medium, I've frequent contact with other people who see things which are either exactly the same or very closely related to many things I've seen. So, am I "seeing the truth" when I'm under the effects of the enteogen? Maybe, maybe not. Am I "just tripping", even when others saw the same thing, some didn't even used it? Maybe, maybe not. I'm collecting data and, just as how brains were meant to act, taking belief decisions based on statistics.

The five "elements" are in reality the five movements. They do not describe what physical things are made of, but what kinds of transformations they generate and go through. For instance, the Spleen in TCM is considered to be of the earth movement. This means its energy, actions and existence all go through what happens with earth, as in the earth we have beneath us. The spleen refine things (as much as solid things put into the earth are refined into purer substances -sediments-), shots energy upwards (as much as steam rises from the earth), controls excess humidity in the body, and so on. Of course, as every kind of movement and transformation, the Wuxi is part of a greater cycle, and also explained by it - this is the cycle of the sixty (years, months, days, whatever), composed by the variations on the 12 earthly branches and 10 heavenly steams. Both (the 12 earthly branches and the 10 heavenly steams) are methods of organizing time. The 12 branches refeer to the orbit of Jupiter, and are used to understand the year and the zodiac. The 10 steams are based on the 10-days week chinese calendar, and were used for multiple purposes. Both systems appeared on the Shang Dynasty, which was a highly mystical dynasty, based on divination and contact with the Heavens. The 12 branches refeer to a solar year. They explain every aspect of every month, and also every hour of the day (and seconds of a minute and etc) in a fractal composition where we can see how the Yin and Yang of the Earth behave themselves. That is, the Yin and Yang of the Earth are in constant change, and the 12 branches tell us which combination of Yin and Yang are being emited by the Earth at any due time. The Earthly energies are like a vase, receiving and kindling every form of energy and life. Our own bodies are made of Earthly energy, and they receive those energies from the earth and emit them as well. This is why we must understand and observe nature in order to remain in good health. As for the 10 steams, they refeer to a Heavenly Cycle. Just like the Earth, the Heavens are also in constant change, and every steam tells us which energies are being emited by the Heavens at any moment. Our own bodies also have Heavenly energy, which comes from our five souls. Understanding the Heavenly Cycle allows us to perform cultivation. Of course, every single moment of both Cycles interact, so we have a big cycle with 60 interactions. Now, the Five Elements arise when we notice the 60 interactions and compare them with the sixty-four components of all things in the universe. Now, to understand what things are made of, you'll need to understand the sixty-four hexagrams. The basys of everything in the Universe (even the Heaven and Earth!) are the Yin and Yang. Yin and Yang, therefore, combine and form all means of existence. However, there is no existence before the Yin and Yang interact three times - for instance, the Heavens are composed of pure Yang energy stacked three times (yang yang yang). While the Earth is composed of pure Yin energy stacked three times (Yin Yin Yin). This pure energy from the Heavens is called Tian, while the pure energy of the Earth is called Kun. They shall not be confused with the other energies which are also called earth, like the Gen energy. Tian is the very act of thinking, all forms of ethereal thought. Kun is the very act of existing. So, before the thrigrams (which mark the begining of existence itself), there is no thought or existence. However, there is something that "exists before existence" - the four phenomena, which are the yin and yang stacked twice. Shaoyin (the lesser yin) is made of two yin stacked. Taiyin (greater yin) is made of yin with yang stacked above. Shaoyang (lesser yang) is made of yang with yin stacked on top. And Taiyang (greater yang) is made of two yang stacked. These things "exist before existence", that is, they exist independent of thought, matter or any thing our minds can perceive. Before the limitations of space and time, before the limitations of experiencing or not experiencing, and so on. They are spiritual, unbound by the limitations of the mind, even if still bound by the limitations of the yin and yang. The trigrams, by their time, are what constitute the mind - thought, existence, and sensations. These four phenomena interact with the eight trigrams. This way, there is a Shaoyin Heaven, a Taiyin Heaven, a Shaoyang Heaven, and a Taiyang heaven. This forms thirty-two pentagrams. Those thirty-two pentagrams refeer to the human being in its pentagonal existence - on its constitution as the one "connecting the Heaven and Earth". They tell us of the many ways Qi (force, energy) can exist. However, these thirty-two pentagrams (Qi) are still afterwards influenced by the yin and yang - forming then the sixty-four hexagrams. Those hexagrams are what represent all forms of physical phenomena. Now, what exactly "interact" means? When we say the four phenomena interact with the three trigrams, what that means? It means that they "mix" or "mingle" in them. So, the four phenomena (the four manifestations of Spirit) interact with the eight trigrams (the eight manifestations of mind) to create the thirty-two manifestation of movement (Qi). And the two manifestations of Primordial Energy stack (change) the thirty-two manifestations of movement (Qi) to generate the sixty-four manifestations of the physical phenomena. For instance, physical fire is an hexagram - the thirty-fifth hexagram (jin) which means "prospering". All forms of physical fire are created by the energy of Prosperity, that is, physical fire is manifested once the trigram of "sight" (perception of light) is influenced by the Shaoyin phenomena and the Yin primordial energy. With this knowledge it is possible to do "magic" - that is, to manifest physical fire with though, spirit and primordial energy. To do so, you need to see fire in front of you (visualize fire), then manifest the Spiritual phenomena of materialization (Shaoyin) and add to that the Primordial Energy of manifestation (yin). That is what the dao (limited) does. It manifests the primordial yin energy, this yin energy manifests two of the four phenomena, and then the four phenomena are affected by the Primordial Energy - giving rise to though, perception and etc. Once light/perception/etc (li) interacts with shaoyin, it generates a certain form of Qi which, when interacting with the Primordial Yin energy (manifestation) generates physical fire. Now we know what the things are made of, as well as which energies manifest at which time. That is, we know the Feng Shui and the Branches and Stems. How do they interact with each-other? Time comes into existence at the same time as Space (Earth trigram Gun). But it isn't Space itself. Rater, time is the existence of "mingling", that is, the very concept of "interaction" between things. That is why the four phenomena do not interact between themselves. There is no concept of "interaction" before the trigrams are manifested. Now, if time is interaction, do the trigrams interact between themselves? Yes, they do. They both generate the sixty-four hexagrams themselves, but in a mental level (that is, they create the "concepts" of things, as well as the "flow" of things), as they interact with the four phenomena to give birth to movement. They do not interact with the primordial energies, as those energies are the ones that come to the world, not the ones that are interacted with. That is, the energies stack on other things, but do not interact (mingle) with them, as they are Pure in their origin. Oh, well, and how does this interaction occurs? It happens once the trigrams affect each-other or affect/are affected by the four phenomena. So, if we are looking at a interaction of trigrams between themselves, we are looking at a interaction of very mild nature - of mental nature. It will create things like the concept of fire. But if we are looking at a interaction of trigrams with phenomena, we are looking at a interaction of very yin nature - of manifestation. It will create various forms of Qi. With this we have the very first two possible manifestations of time (interaction) between things - Between themselves or between them and something that will lead to a lower state of energy. This leads us to define two oposites forms of movement (not movement itself). The first is between one's equals. The other is with strangers, dangerous forces which cannot be comprehended. The trigram which correspond to moving between one's brethen is the Li (perception, light, fire) trigram. Therefore, it is the basys of this form of movement. It is composed of yang which stacks yin on top of itself, and then stacks another yang. It is a form of movement that means you're mingling with others (yang, then yin), but still between your equals (yang). The trigram which correspond to moving between strangers is the Kan (danger, hearing). Therefore, it is the basys of this form of movement. It is composed of yin which stacks yang on top of itself, and then stacks another yin. It is a form of movement that means you're mingling with strangers (yin, then yang), and far away from your home, alone with them (yin). Remember : The trigrams correspond to thought, perception and so on. On this level we aren't talking about perfect things anymore. The concepts here presented are the mean we have to try and pry on the concept of time and ways of interacting. There are interactions which are beyond logic, and the interaction of the trigrams with the phenomena is one of them. We are trying to comprehend something which is inherently non-mental with the mind. Faults are to be expected. Very well. Seen as these two forms of interaction exist and can be said to correspond (there again, said to correspond, this is not necessarily true) to the Li (fire) and Kan (water) trigrams, what other forms of interaction can we see? Well, between trigrams the interaction can be either easy to understand, as if one of the trigrams was very open and receptive to the other (like how a field with other field forms.... well, a field), or difficult to undestand, as if one of the trigrams had been bounded by the other in a unnatural manner (like how thunder on top of fire means "abundance"). Easy and receptive, or bound and hard. Those two characteristics are linked to the Kun and Gen trigrams, field and mountain, respectively. Both are born of the same kind of interaction (between trigrams) and are a consequence of looking at how the trigrams interact between each-other. Both are called Earth, and said to be born out of Fire. Now, we saw how the trigrams interact (either between themselves or with phenomena) and how they interact between themselves. But what happens when they interact between themselves? What's the product? Well, after interacting between themselves, the trigrams will generate concepts, which are a still thing which rarely mutates, but also ideas, which are a conjunction of many thoughts and concepts which form a whole. The concepts are like a lake, still and calm, while the ideas are like the heavens, limitless and all-encompassing. Both things we call metal, and they come from the earth. Then we have concepts and ideas, what else can happen? Well, at this point, the only thing that can happen is for those concepts and ideas to be throughly brought down, destroyed and reformed by the influence of the four phenomena. Therefore, we get out of the first interaction (between equals) and get into the second form of interaction (between strangers), and go through the cycle. Now, let's stop here the creation of the Five Movements cycle (as it has become quite clear were I'm headed), and look at other element of it. If we are talking about interactions between the trigrams, they do not disappear once they interact. They create new things, but those new things also interact with them. How ideas and concepts interact with the very foundation of their existence, the interaction between trigrams? If you take an idea and make it interact with all of the foundational blocks of knowledge which form it, or put new blocks there, what happens? Well, this idea is constricted by them. Fire is dominating (or controling) metal. There is a limitation on how your ideas can be organized if you're using only the interaction between trigrams. They cannot interact with other things. But then again, if you limit the trigrams you'll use too much, that is, if you make the interaction between the ideas limited to a very small number of trigrams, only those who are really close to each other on their constitution, your ideas will be little and small. They will be only very limited in number. This is overdomination of fire over metal. And what if you let your ideas go unrestrained? What if you let them grow limitless? They will start to escape the bounds of fire - of interacting only between those equals you have defined as the subject of your phylosophical analysis. They will insult fire - that is, will destroy its foundations, its very existence. They will be unruly ideas, which cannot be put to tame by limits. And so on. This is how we establish the Five Movements Cycle. It describes the many forms through which movement (interaction) between things happen, as well as what happens when something which is going through a certain movement interacts with something else which is going through another movement. However, as this happens on higher levels of existence, we see it happening on all other levels as well. Any kind of movement, of interaction between things, will recall this existence. Even the 12 branches and 10 steams are under the power of the five movements - as they are manifestations of energy from the physical sky and the physical earth. I guess that's the gist of it. At least as far as I have reached in my studies. Hope for the best and that I haven't made mistakes which may mislead everybody.

Psychosys is a state where the person blindly believe things which are created and put forth by their own mind. Need for external affection, for instance, can manifest as the person with psychosys seeing the image of a person in front of him and believing this person loves him unconditionaly. All kinds of rationalization are brought forth to protect this belief, as the person ignores all possible clues and evidence to keep believing on what it wants to believe. Once this need is removed, the "person" (projection) disappears. On another words, it is the inhability to control the skill of projecting desires and ideas in the "mind's eye". As people train their minds, this skill becomes stronger, so someone who wasn't able to project its desires with form and shape, suddenly becomes able to do it. The blind belief spreads and this person enters a psychotic state. So, yes, meditation can trigger psychosys. Anything that makes your mind more powerfull will bring forth your inner demons. Without proper care, and that means self-discovery and mental exploration of the ego, as well as its flexibilization and eventual dissolution, people who have very stiff egos will find themselves on the borders of meditation. The "dark night of the soul" is a consequence of empowering the mind to the point where it realizes its own emptyness without giving it the proper gidance to find the Void. Not that 5 minutes of daily meditation to "calm down" will get you there. But if you truly commit yourself to meditation, your mind will have to go through a transformative process. Having no guidance in this, you'll probably find these kinds of problems. A high level of intuition or a good guide are needed in order to avoid losing a few lives as a spirit with a inborn fragmented (psychotic) ego.

Let's see if I can make a diagnosys with what you told me. blenching - From shyness indicates a gall bladder disarmony. gas - How did it smell? If it wasn't smelly, then that indicates a Spleen-Qi deficiency. hear ringing (tinnitus) - Is it low or high? Do it worsen when you press your hands on your ears? Seen as it just popped out of nowere, it indicates Liver disarmonies (Liver Fire, Rising Liver Yang, Liver Wind). a comeback of reflux gastroesofagian - Stomach Qi Revolt. and the worst a feeling of tension/pressure/malaise in the lower abdomen - Feeling of distension on the lower abdomen points to Liver Fire and Fire-Mucosys in the Bladder. even a fasciculation of the left eye (eyelid and around) - Liver disarmonies, specially rising yang. I suppose you have also been very easily aggravated, choleric even? That your face has been showing signs of being quite red recently, and that you have been feeling like you're overreacting to everything ? If so, I would definetely point at a Rising Liver Yang condition, probably caused by a Liver Fire. The reflux comes from the Liver attacking the Stomach, and the blenching comes from the Gall Bladder Qi being deviated. That can be connected to the Standing Qi Gong by a lot of factors. Even the initial relaxation itself, if touching on old traumas and psychological barriers, can be the reason why your Liver has produced Inner Harmfull Fire. Going to a TCM doctor is a nice idea. I obviously cannot assure you this diagnosys has any meaning, as I have purely looked at the symptoms and not at your whole life history and other symptoms which you yourself might be unaware of. However, be mindful of how you're feeling during any Qi Gong practice. It affects your emotional and mental existences, as much as it affects your body. Emotional and mental disconfort during Qi Gong practice easily transform into physical disease, so go easy on yourself

All actions can lead to the Dao. A butcher butchering, a farmer farming, an emperor ruling... so why not a healer healing? Besides that, by having contact with some concepts and mechanisms to understand and change the body, mind and soul, one's Ego is completely transformed in the process. One's understandment of themselves increase as they understand others. That's one of the reasons why ortodox western medicine is stuck and can't progress beyond its current level of physically treating the body - the western doctors cannot deal with the needed knowledge and their egos are already pushed to the brim with just what they know. They seek refuge from this knowledge, and pride comes forth as a means of protecting their sense of "who I am". Healing is an inherently spiritual practice. To achieve high levels of healing, the healer must either cure or outright strip themselves from their own diseases and limitations. For instance, lets take one thing that most western doctors feel enraged by: Patients that do not follow the correct dietary prescriptions. I've seen my brother (who is one) complaining about this time and time again. "I have given her the dietary prescription, she didn't follow it, now, look, there she is, heart attack!". He will never be able to heal these kind of patients, because he is unable to let go of his own mental restrains in order to affect the patient where the root of the problem is: Their minds and behaviour. A good, obedient and well-behaved patient isn't something a doctor must expect. One's physical health being bad, their mental health will probably be bad as well. The healer must heal the person as a whole, and for that to happen, they need to go beyond the mind - THEIR own mind. So, yes, healing is a form of self cultivation. The carrot are things like money, fame, and, why not, simply the satisfaction of seeing a good person healed and well, free of pain and disease. The stick are things like people dying, their relatives crying and sometimes outright losing everything they had because you where unable to help them My own achievements in this field have come in the form of a way of thinking: I do not see any kind of bad behaviour and criminal action as something related to the essence of a person. To they being "bad" themselves. I see that as a disease which can be treated, be it a rapist or simply a shoplifter. Their very mental core can be changed as long as I achieve higher levels of being - the concept of "who they are". So why should I blame them? They just have faulty machines (Egos). All I need to do is to fix it, and no more problems shall arise. Of course, the practice is WAY harder than the ideals. Looking at the root of the problems is a fucking hard exercise of self-perception and shadow work. Especially since this root tend to be on the very basic constituions of human beings, such as desires, immaturity, attachments and so on. Dealing with this is doable. But still VERY difficult, since your own psyche will be affected by it.

TCM doesn't seek or produces enlightment. We are capable of affecting the whole structure of the being through TCM, but those are tools used for a means. True enlightment comes from somewere TCM cannot reach - the inner self. Of course, we can produce "pseudo-enlightment". Some herbs, enteogens and other substances, while also mixed with the right kinds of therapy and the such, can produce the "enlightment experience" in which one experiences and tastes enlightment. It is, however, usually forgotten in its entirety right after. With much practice and repetition it is then possible to change someone's Ego just enough so the person becomes capable of experiencing advanced states of being, with some of them being close to enlightment. It isn't, however, possible to experience enlightment without experiencing the dissolution of the Ego. And as much as this dissolution can be remembered once the Ego is put in its place as a tool (and accepts and even seeks for it), it isn't possible to recreate the feeling on one's mind or think about it. You'll just remember that you once "ceased to be you". So, to sumarize: TCM can produce "pseudo-enlightment" and this then can produce in the person's Ego the needed changes in order for them to seek and find the doors to enlightment. But that's all. We cannot push the person beyond the door, only open it to them.

So, you're treating free will as a spiritual influence over the physical plane. One's "spirit" doing things, so to say ?

Well, for those who "believe" in free will, I would like to ask : What is free will ? Where does it comes from ? Can it be manipulated ? How is one (ego) related to it ? And, finaly: How can you recognize when you're using your "free will" or acting purely out of reflex ?

There are two possibilities. One, the universe is regulated by inexcapable natural laws. Two, there is space for raw chaos to manifest. In the first, our own toughts and ideas are the result of such laws. Our brains, and even our egos, are what they are because of these laws. There is no "choice". Anything you choose has been chosen as so because you are you -and "you" yourself is a product of this universe and its laws. You think you're choosing, that it is you "will" that determines things. But your "will" itself is a product of the universal laws, so you're choosing as much as a hidrogen atom chooses to bond with oxigen to form water. Is all mathematics. Now, if the second is true, then chaos may sept in the universe, and your "will" itself can be changed by this chaos as well. On another words, there is no mythical "will" that will interfere with your destiny. "Because you are you, then you'll choose as you would choose". I love this phrase, as much as people rarely understand it. Now, about gods creating a destiny for you... that is as much true as society creating your destiny, or your parents. All of that only is what it is because it is destiny (a.k.a. the mathematical logic) that it would be as so. May you rebel against it or follow it passively, that is destiny as well. The mere consequence os things being what they are in their origin.

I smell some chaos magick here.

Most animal sacrifice follow a few rules: 1 - A properly trained priest do it. Only him can do it. It's not like "oh, i should sacrifice a goat" and do it. There are technique and ritual involved. 2 - There are properly sharpened and perfect tools ready for the act. They are sacred and especialy prepared beforehand. 3 - The animal is used in whole after the sacrifice. The meat is eaten and shared with the comunity. That includes most of the organs. The intestines are usually used for making rope, while the brain and nerves are used as tanning abrasive. Skin/feathers/scales/horns are used for making clothing, drunms, accesories, blow horns, sacred drinking mugs or ritual tools. Teeth, bones, nails and etc as well. Even the blood is used, as it showers the altar/earth and "nourishes" it. It can also be collected and either be drank, used as fertilizer or others. 4 - The animal which is to be sacrificed must be killed in a single stroke. No mistakes can be done, and there can be no pain. 5 - It must happen in a specific date, and/or ritual, etc. 6 - Gods must be called, evil spirits banished, guardian spirits/beasts/entities must be called to keep them away. 7 - The sacrifice needs to have a good reason to be done. 8 - Many traditions look if the animal "accepts" being sacrificed or not. If the animal tries to run away from the altar or somewhat tries to avoid the sacrifice, then it is released and another one is called. If the spirits/gods are present, the animal will usualy calmly go to the sacrificial altar and offer itself (to the point of offering its neck to the knife). If not, then as soon as it sees and smells the blood and/or the knife, it will usualy start to try to run away and escape... or fall to the ground in terror. Those animals aren't acceptable on noble sacrifice. Now, what happens when all of that is taken into account ? The Qi, Xue and life force in the animal's blood, organs, meat and other parts are refined and turned into pure substances which can be used by the gods/spirits for a huge array of objectives, such as materializating a temporary body, healing, moving and/or changing things in the physical plane, aleviating the burden on the medium in cases of very intensive and powerful possession practices, divination and so on. Some of its souls (mainly zhi, po and shen) can be refined as well. The animal's hun soul is usually redirected, while its Pi soul can be refined or used to refine other substances. The refined substances which the gods/spirits have no use for, they then Now, if you're not doing it like this, you'll either have your own ways to deal with the consequences, be doing dark magic (sacrificing animals which have gone through much suffering and pain can be used to generate disease and/or death on others), or simply feeding low-class spirits/elementals which are addicted to animal blood/life force. That's mostly it.

If you want for them to mean the same thing for everyone... then yes. The french do it already. They have a whole bureau dedicated to keeping the french language the same through the generations. It's like this : If you want to know the "real meaning" of something, that thing will only have a real and official meaning if it is recognized as such and enforced as well. Otherwise, anyone can give any meaning they want for any word. People LOVE to do that to polemic terms and words, and then use them for mass manipulation. Words like "communism", "capitalism", "honor", "patriotism", etc. are used freely to play with people's emotions for one's own agenda. The same thing happened with "yoga" and is now happening to "qigong" and "neigong". The things one can read around...

I would say they (fascia lines) are the tendino-muscular channels. That would be very much correct in terms of what we do to them and which results we get from it. Ankle-wrist therapy is a very interesting and efficient form if teraphy, as well as ah shi puncture - both dealing with fascia.

I find it amusing how Daoists believe there is no "immortal soul" but many do believe in the existence of ghosts and spirits of the dead... Or how people disregard the Ego and Conscienciousness as a mix of Shen, Hun and Pi, and then think that, as long as you don't have Zhi and Po, you'll disappear. Or that Shen and Pi disappear as well. "Something" who used to be "someone" can think for itself, is conscious of its state and reactive to the environment. It doesn't feel impulses coming from the body (like procriation, eating or run-or-fight instinct), nor bodly sensations. That's the only difference between it and me and you. Can it really be called "not who he was"? "Not someone's soul"? Anyhow. Neidan is a name without a definite meaning. It can be understood as a mass of bobbling pride-and-arrogance which has been feeding on peoples "wants" through the years (especially since the cult-witch-hunt made yoga less popular on the USA, opening a new market for mystical experiences), and can be acessed through this name, or as the form people refeer to some texts and ideas - which usually don't have much in common. There is no single official means of enforcing the meaning of "neidan", so anyone is free to call anything they want by this name.

Meridians aren't made of physical matter. One of the best arguments about that comes from the existence of meridians that ENTER the body and go through the organs and meat in general. The "TCM meridians" we see on most maps are only a very small portion of the real TCM meridians, which include divergent channels, Luo (connection) channels, Xue (blood) channels, Ying Qi channels, tendino-muscular channels ( those which could indeed be related to muscular fascia), deep channels, marrow channels, substance-oceans, rivers, lakes and wells, and so on. On another words, unless you have connective tissue in the middle of your heart or collagen in the middle of your brain and eyes (places were meridians DO exist and go through), no, meridians aren't made of connective tissue or collagen. Indeed, we have even meridians in the middle of our spinal chord. The divergent Kidney channel starts at the knees and go all the way up to your spine, then enters the spine at the Ming Men and go to your dantian at VC4. Later it raises through your organs and get to your heart. Later yet it raises again and goes to the tongue, and from there to the brain and eyes. And the divergent Conception Vessel channel goes through the whole of the spine. That being said, yes, acupuncture points do seem to influence and be influenced by electricity - as well as pressure. One method of diagnosys is based on pressing the accupoint. If it hurts or feels WAY too soft (lacks tonus) then that represents either an excess or a deficiency in energy in that acupoint. That do coincides with electric variations in points in regards to the skin around them. That is to say, if you're measuring the electric conductivity of an acupoint in the middle of your arm, you need to make it compared to the surrounding tissue, not, for instance, the electric conductivity of your hand. Our skin has naturally different conductive potentials (due to things like sweat and the amount of blood flowing in that part of the body), so that has to be taken into account. That said, not only is electro-measuring an efficient means of diagnosys, it can be used for treatment as well. However, that is were things get complicated - TCM isn't only about the meridians, it also includes the organs (the physical ones), bones, marrow, blood (not Xue, but common blood) and etc. So an energetic/meridian-based diagnosys will be only a small part on the general diagnosys - since it will give you clues about what is happening on all levels, but not a definitive answer. For instance. You can have a blockage of energy on your Small Intestine channel. Some people would think "oh, then he must have intestinal problems!". However, the Small Intestine channel is the yang-most of the channels, and it is frequently aflicted by perverse energy. Most of the times, energy invading the Small Intestine meridian will travel from there either to other yang meridian - like the Large Intestine or Bladder meridians - and then get into contact with the Lung meridian and, from there, invade the Lungs. So, while the germs and viruses are happily trying to fixate themselves on your lungs, the perverse cold energy is wreacking havoc on your body. Once the germs and the energy combine in the organs, however, that is when you get sick. And that is also why things like getting hit by wind on your face can give you disease. Now, talking about what meridians are: If you could increase your energy sensitivity to the point where you can see (with your eyes) the denser forms of energy moving on a person's body (the Ying Qi), then you would be able to see what seems like small black lines going through it. Sometimes, for some reason, these black lines become engorged, or even form "balls" and "black areas" around some part of the body. Sometimes, they are barely visible, or even invisible. Those are the meridians, and the thing flowing in them is Ying Qi which has been through the whole blood circulation and is now circulating in the meridians (Ying Qi first circulates on your blood, inside the blood vessels, and only then enters the meridians). The places were there are black masses are acupoints (places were energy goes through and which act as "gates" somehow, since they can block its flow) which present blockages, and the places where there are no lines are places where there is no (or almost no) energy going through. If you get one of those black places and apply pressure into it, the person will fell a good amount of a very particular type of pain (which most people used to physical pain will still think "shit, this hurts!" while regular people won't feel much more pain than them) and that place will slowly start to relax and allow for the energy to flow again. This will release a lot of pressure from the place, and will eventually start to show signs - like inflamations going away, muscles relaxing, diseases having its symptoms alleviated, reduced pain, etc, etc. Sometimes you'll even be able to completely eliminate some kind of bodly disarmony (such as a disease, be it physical, emotional or mental). This energy and its flows also affect the emotions and thoughts of a person. Then, if you go deeper into the rabbit hole, you'll notice that these meridians also act a lot like tubes - they can get blocked because the energy inside of them is too thick, for instance, even without stopping at a certain acupoint. Yes, I have gonne through this (through possession), yes I have obtained results, no, false-puncture did not generate the same effects on other people. Many times affecting a point near a blockage, however, is affecting the blockage itself - as it is a mass of energy, much like a haematoma, not mentioning that, by affecting an acupoint away from a certain place, you can also affect that place. Still, many acupoints do not dissolve or alleviate the black energy masses. That's it.

Please do share his profile if you can. I've been overreactive. Sorry. However, please do think aboi this: The basis of all systems which include the five movements are the ideas of correspondence and ressonance. The Yellow Emperor called himself "yellow" and dressed in yellow because his reign happened during a predominance of yellow between the earth and the sky - and he harmonized with it. That is the basys for everything. Now, waidan and neigong are external and internal sides of the same thing : alchemy. Only through uniting both in and out, yin and yang, and then working with then, will you be able to complete de whole of the thing. The whole of alchemy, as well as the whole of "changing humans through alchemy" can only be achieved by practicing waidan and neigong at the same time. So, when it says you must stirr the cauldron, that means both stirring the outside cauldron and the inside cauldron. When you add Vermillion, you must do it both inside and outside. When you add cinnabar, also. Thats how you can purify the yang (souls and qi) through yin (internal alchemy), and the yin (blood, marrow and liquids) through the yang (external alchemy). Internal pills, exercises and elixirs will keep you warm, motivated, sane and vigorous through your Qi and souls. As external pills and exercises will keep you young, vigorous and in good physical health. Many of them being herbal medicinal compounds. Of course, at a certain level you will not need either. Once you can freely turn Yang into Yin and Yin into Yang (for example, blood into qi and qi into blood), you'll be able to reach a new level of alchemy where there is no separation. Good feeling can become eternal life, good food can be made into mental power, and so on. Body can be turned into soul, and soul can be made into body - it is the ability to ascend and descend in the more literal sense of the word ! Get my point ?

Well, I won't talk about "not mixing weidan and neigong" because I do think that is not taking into account that one cannot exist without the other. Without taking into account Neigong, and practicing it, you cannot use Waidan. It is the same as thinking the western alchemists were trying to make real lead turn into gold or producing a real Elixir of Eternal life by mixing dangerous substances, many of which were potentially psychodelic, as at least one of the alchemy recipes I've found will produce ethyl chloride if you take out the "creepy witchcraft" most alchemist associate with alchemy, like semen or blood, and simply substitute it by alcohol - be it from hard liquor or even medieval wine. Is it really easier to believe that a cultured man who could read, potentially at least two to three languages, not to mention being of whealth and power, would believe that mixing mercury and sulphur would give them a physical stone which would produce gold? They probably even didn't want any gold to begin with, as most who had access to the money needed to buy all lab equipements had more than enough already! Not to mention they probably were christians as well, so living eternaly on earth was the same as having eternal life in hell. Western alchemy, in my view, is about producing "safe" psychodelics (unlike LSA from rye, which caused brain damage) which could enrich one's philosophical and metaphysical explorations. So, please forgive me if I look at ideas like "Waidan and neigong can't be mixed" with a grain of salt. About Po and Hun, do notice that by projecting the consciousness outside of one's body, one is indeed separating his souls from the body. The more souls you bring with you, the more complete you'll be able to be. By bringing only the Hun, you'll enter certain meditative states, but will not feel like you're out of your body. You'll just feel that nothing in the world can bother you, and be completely passive about the physical world around you, therefore entering a state which, indeed, could be understood as "being everlasting". By bringing Shen as well, you'll become conscious out of your body. By bringing Yi, you'll be able to reason. And by bringing Zhi you'll be able to change the ethereal world with your willpower. Bringing the Po, however, is indeed risky - it will give you the ability to influence the physical plane, but while the other four cannot be physically harmed and can be easily healed if harmed non-physicaly, the Po indeed will immediately affect your physical body if harmed - not to mention it CAN be physically harmed as well. p.s: Men are true yang and women are true yin ? Only if the men is on fire and the woman's corpse dissolved into a puddle already. Otherwise, they are as impure as living humans can be. But then again, "alchemists want to make gold out of lead". It is so convenient for the "secret of the sages" to be about sex (which is a taboo and easily incites the masse's imagination) than to be about "boring" and "useless" things like having mind-blowing experiences which allow you to dissociate your thoughts from yourself, and "yourself" from individuality. From TCM: The kidneys actually work to push energy upwards. The lungs make it go donwards, towards the kidneys, and once Zheng Qi is produced, then it is pumped upwards by the Kidney Qi. It separates into Wu Qi and Ying Qi while going up, and then the Ying Qi is spread through the body by the lungs and heart. You can see the whole process if you pay attention to the ying qi inside someone's Kidney channel - it receives all of the body's energy through the bladder channel at Bladder 67, which connects to Kidney 1, and there rises upwards until it reaches the heart and enters on it. It also has some parallel flows, for instance it connects to the Conception Vessel at CV 1 (the famous perineum point everyone loves), and there it enters the spine. From that place it again enters the body through Ming Men (GV 4) and connects directly to the kidneys, and from there to the Qi Sea (which is "coincidentaly" right were one's Dan Tian on Nei Gong terminology would be...), where it finds its end. This process can be understood as "Water thus turns into a fiery furnace " that the friend above posted. The whole process of the "boy and the girl avoiding wasting" is just what happens when the Bladder 67 point goes to the Kidney 1 point. A lot of impure energy is discharged at the feet, and the one that's not discharged is then collected by the Kidneys. It will then go up and become pure Kidney Qi which will nourish and warm (Qi mainly warms) the whole body - including the DanTian, the Heart, the Ming Men... anyhow. So, yes, water is pushed upwards once it reaches the deepest parts of the deep, and the same with fire - as the Tai Yang channel (Small Intestine) pushes things donwards towards the bladder channel (which connects to all channels and brings down energy from their all). Besides that, you also have the eight extraordinary channels, which make energy go upwards or donwards by themselves. The Yin Qiao Mai, for instance, is considered to be an extention of the kidney meridian, and also makes energy go upwards - except it goes straight to your eyes instead of going to the lungs as the kidney meridian goes.

This is an interpretation based in TCM and Five Movements Theory. The basys is that this poem is about either about Alchemy or Nei Gong, not anything else. Lead is metal. Metal within one's body that can be controled is breath. So, "hold your breath firmly". Do not simply hold your breath. Do it with intention, that is, in a meditating and aware state. Avoid losing conscienciousness or letting your mind idle. The earthly po-soul is the esoteric yang-most part of the lungs. It is more yang than Qi, and is very close to Shen (spirit) in nature. Vermilion is a red pigment made from mercury sulfide (mercury + sulphur). So, this means to "let the soul of the lungs purify the impurities on the mercury inside of you". As for what mercury is, it could be literal mercury by the ingestion of cinnabar (Vermilion in the text), or something else. Ancient chinese believed that, by ingesting cinnabar (raw form of mercury, which contains sulphur) one would achieve longevity through alchemy. Mercury is considered to be Yin and sulphur to be Yang. Refining the cinnabar inside of you means to take the Yin (mercury) from inside of the Yin-Yang (Cinnabar). On a more esoteric approach, Vermillion can also mean the Zhong Qi, the Chest Qi, which is a mix of energy from the air (Xin Qi), energy from the foods and drinks (Gu Qi) and energy from the Heart (Xin Qi - written on another way than the first). By holding one's breath with intention, it is possible to deplete the Zhong Qi and transform it back into Xin Qi, that is, to take the Air Qi from inside the Chest Qi. Hun is the Soul in the Liver, and also one of the most esoteric souls in chinese esoterism. It is less yang than Shen, but many texts believe it survives death, while Shen wouldn't do it. It also is able to resist reincarnation, so it would be the link between one's current and previous lives. Some even say that it is the Hun that gives birth to all other souls, upon reincarnation. I do not believe this theory, as it is a Wood soul, and Wood doesn't give birth but to Fire and Ashes. Anyhow, so far we have been holding our breath. The Hun is also the Reactive, the Instinctive, the Protective soul. It is the soul that reacts to anything that happens in the body, and it is tasked with keeping harmony - like a general. By holding your breath, you'll stirr your Hun. By depleting the Chest Qi, however (that is, by holding your breath with intention and keeping yourself calm through meditation), it is possible to force the Hun to remain calm. Metal in the Water is the source of True Qi. Air Qi flows into the Kidneys and there, with Gu Qi and under the works of Yuan Qi, is transformed into True Qi (Zheng Qi). If you're holding your breath, then there is no Air Qi to go bellow. Once the Chest Qi is depleted and there is no more metal, your Hun will try to exert counter-dominance (destructive cicle) over any Metal it finds in your body - which will be the remnant Metal (Air) in your Kidneys. It will then dominate it, forcing it to become harmonious and even short and limited, eventually even destroying it completely. If you manage to obtain maestry in this (lofty Way) Then you won't feel anger or impulses, that is, the need to react to all things while losing the control over the Hun. Usually the Hun is controled by breathing - as Metal controls Wood. Then, it ignites the Shen (heart) and makes you lose your consciousness and clarity of mind (the Shen is forced out of the heart and lose its roots in it). However, if you manage to hold your breath and still remain conscious all the time, you'll then be able to subdue this kind of instinctive reaction. When it becomes difficult to be Virtuous (hefty Virtue), the Benevolent Rulers (gods) and Fierce Rebels (demons) inside yourself (your instinctive reasonings and workings to keep the body active) are restrained. That is, you'll be able to remain Virtuous, even when your own mind, believes and other mental, internal or somewhat instinctive and unconscious aspects try to act without Virtue, be it by benevolence to yourself (gods) or to rebel against the tyranny you impose on your own destiny, by sticking to Virtue despite the cost (demons). Heavens and Earth are eternal. Obtain the knowledge about your own eternity can be understood as many things, but the main point is that, once you reach it... Nothing will bother you anymore, and no mater the situation, you'll remain calm and able to exert Virtue. So, summing it up: In an practical alchemy interpretation: Eat a cinnabar (raw mercury) and hold your breath for as long as possible without losing consciousness. You'll feel your chest tighten, but remain calm. Eventually, you'll feel an urgent need to breathe and react to not breathing, your whole body will turn weak, especially your lower back. Don't worry, that's to be expected. No, it is not healthy, but this isn't about making an elixir. It is about learning to be Virtuous doesn't matter when. Eventually, once you master this art, you'll be able to remain calm and Virtuous no matter the situation, for you'll learn that you're immortal and everlasting. (Note: This probably comes from a successfull astral projection, which is also understood as the Hun leaving the body. Once you notice that your Hun exists outside of your body, and that it is immortal, you're supposed to accept anything that happens to your body, no matter what, because you know you're immortal and everlasting. The cinnabar will help by releasing mercury inside of you, which will in turn make your digestion and whole earth-related system very heavy and unable to properly work. Depleted, indeed. With the grip (earth dominates water) on your Willpower -Zhi- released by depleting your earth-qi, you'll be able to remain conscious and calm for a longer time, due to sheer willpower. With enough calmness and keeping consciousness active all the time, it is easier to achieve an astral -or Hun- projection, as the easier way to do it is to remain conscious as your body enter a sleeping state). In pracical Nei Gong interpretation: Restrain your breath and remain calm and conscious. You'll feel all that I described above, and must pay attention to it - by remaining aware of the movements of the energy inside your body, you'll become able to better control your Hun and Liver Qi, as this technique is meant to stimulate its actions and reactions as strongly as possible. That is, this is a technique to learn awareness of your Liver Qi and Hun, in which turn can be controled through your Shen later on, allowing you to become Virtuous no matter the situation, by directly controling (with intention and Spirit) your Liver Qi. Also, you'll learn to identify when your control is being overly strong (that is, when your Liver has been so active it starts to hurt your kidneys) which is when it is time to go find a place to work this anger out of your system. That's it. Hope it was of any use. Obs: I suppose "True Yin" refers to the body without a soul, and "True Yang" to the souls without the body. Learning to "release True Yang from True Yin" means learning how to release/control your souls without the need of using your body (for instance, breathing) ^^

It's called "Umbanda". Togheter with "Espiritismo" it forms the basis of necromantic (or spiritists) religions on Brazil. Both are de-centralized religions (obviously, since it's based on contact with the dead and giving more face to them then to earth and earthly leaders) with non-canonical (obviously, since it's decentralized) myths and origin stories. In the end, the real deal with both isn't to explain nature or the formation of the world, but rather to give people hands-on experience with some things - like the spirits of the dead, wisdom and esoteric knowledge (the last is a little rare... people have to be engaged on actively learning from the spirits and ask them for knowledge in order to receive most of it). You can see a bit of it here : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sbhhKneTor0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrydSkQril0 My own temple is called Fraternidade Kayman. We are of an offshot umbanda tradition, called Umbandaime Cristão da Nova Era. This is a mixed tradition, based mostly on what the spirit-in-chief of the house, Pai João, managed to accomodate on his own practices and spirituality. The basics lean heavily on Umbanda, since that was the very beginning of the temple. However, there are oriental elements, as well as maçonic (we do have a few maçons in the temples' staff, and they are more than happy to share some stuff) and so on. Probably the most controversial aspect of the temple, however, is the use of the enteogen Santo Daime. It's an ayahuasca brew made following the recipe and ritual of a century-old ayuasca tradition and church from Brazil (and the only enteogen which is allowed by law to be used), the Santo Daime. Not everyone uses it, however, and the use is not mandatory. I have used it a few times, but i haven't done it on thursdays (the umbanda practice) for a couple of years already. This video despicts the last thursday of 2016, which was an Umbanda session: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfK2q3NOD_M

First of all, i'm very sorry for reviving this old thread. It's just that it suddenly appeared when i was researching about Hou Tian and Xian Tian (in another context), and it made me very interested. I have a few questions, and ask that mr.effilang answers then, if possible. If not, than sorry for bothering you! A question i have, as an acupuncturist: What is it meant to become more Yin or more Yang ? As much as my poor understanting is concerned, you could very well freeze yourself or lit yourself on fire for those purposes, haha. No offense meant. I guess the right question would be : What exactly is becoming more Yin ? And what exactly is becoming more Yang? What is the "tao of origination" ? I do understand that "the dao that can be named isn't the real dao", and that we have at least 2 types of Dao - one which is a very abstract concept, and one which is beyond conceptuation. That is to say, one which is almost impossible to grasp mentaly, which to whom we own the very possibility of talking about "dao" here, and one which is indeed impossible to grasp. Are we talking about this? Also, why would we "return" to such thing ? I have found the concept of "returning to the source" in many esoteric schools, but it never appealed to me on a level of "this is what i want!". Instead, i'm more of a transcendentalist - i wish to be able to freely travel between the beyond-mind and the mind. To exist simultaneously on the origin and on the moment. Does it make sense, or "returning" is the only right thing to do? (I mean, i came all the way down here, why should i give up on this just to return home empty-handed?) This is something which just makes my head hurts. The concept of a "body" itself is Yin. In order to have a massive, extremely sturdy and powerfull body, one would have to have a body which is full of Yin - massive bones, for isntance. It always seems like Daoism is looking at Yin with unjust contempt. Isn't the balance between Yin and Yang the source of life, instead of the presence of more yang? At least in TCM, excess of yang will give you strong fever and kill you way faster than a depletion of yang (fake cold)! As a TCM practioneer, i see yin as important and necessary as yang. If you want a long life, you must have just as much yin as you have yang! I mean, of course, a body brimming in vitality is yang when compared to a dead body. But the dead body is in an imbalance. It's not that the peak-of-life body has more yang, it's that it has enough yang to balance its yin! Is this just me being picky or something?... Anyway... In cultivation, shouldn't one increase it's affinity with both yin and yang in order to broaden their existance and eventually reach beyond not only "ascension" but also "descension" ? Being able to ascend to the heavens is marvelous. Becoming trapped there, unnable to come down, or remain forever unable to reach the underworld, by its time, seems more like a limitation than a blessing. Shouldn't one cultivate the ability to "ascend" and also the one to "descend" in order to achieve beyond immortality, to the realm of transcendence? In TCM we talk about post-natal Jing being accumulated through properly living - eating, sleeping, working, playing... How can meditation by itself accumulate Jing ? I do know that qi can be absorbed through some visualization exercises and energetic absorbtion practices. And i do know that our bodies naturaly transform Ying Qi in Post-Natal Jing after it goes through the blood and meridians - then storing it at the eight extraordinary vessels. Is that the kind of process that's being hinted at here? Absorbing Qi directly from the environment, then adding it to ones' blood and letting it accumulate as post-natal Jing? If so, how can we stop the consumption of Yuan Qi from the Kidney (which is used to turn external qi into Zheng Qi), if we are still using the regular nutrition channels? Unless what's being hinted here is that one must use it's Shen to refine the external energy by itself, avoiding the use of Yuan Qi by directly transmutating the external qi? I do know that Ying Qi becomes post-natal Jing. However, that's only after going through multiple transformations in the body, that is, after moving the yin (blood, organs, etc) and being transformed by the yang (emotions). That process hints at the Xian Tian being a process where some kind of energy (like the Ying Qi) first becomes densified and polluted to the extreme (by going through the Bones, Organs and Blood) and then being heated and purified also to the extreme (by going through the Meridians, Tendons and Souls). This way, the impurities absorbed through the "meddling with the impure (yin)" are then refined and become harmonious, naturally turning into a physical treasure - Post-Natal Jing, which is dense as the impure blood and organs, but pure and precious. Is the transformation of Shen into Qi based on this same principle ? (Directing Shen to the densest parts of the souls, that is, starting with the Po, and then circulating it through all other souls and finally by the Ba Hui and other spiritual doors in the body, so allowing for the impurities it absorbed in the souls to be purified?). This so called Yang Principle doesn't seem to steem from the pre-natal Jing, then. Instead, it seems to say that one is in perpetual deficience of yang in the body, except at the exact age of 16 years old. However, how to understand that at the light of so many who don't have yang deficiency but, rather, yin deficiency ? Some even have it from birth, due to the pre-natal Jing not being that good. That's ok for the western senses, but the 5 senses we talk about in TCM don't include touch, however, i have been taught that the 5 senses in TCM don't include touch. They are Smell, Speech, Sight, Hearing and Taste. Were did touch come from? The aging process in TCM is explained by the loss of pre-natal Jing. What is this "negative yin principle" which seems to be coming from the outside ? I'd like to point that, as an acupuncturist, this is one of the bigger points of frustration i have with most neigong systems. From what i have seen, sexual celibacy in men tend to generate heat-phleugm (or even heat-mucosity) symdroms. As for stopping menstruation, i do not know the technique, but it seems fishy to me. Do you know any works on the medicinal aspects of semen retention and cutting off someones' period? The esoteric works may praise it, but i sincerely don't see how to conciliate the medicinal view on it with the esoteric view. This is the main point where your text got me hooked up. As i said, i'm a medium. I have contact with spirits in an almost daily basis. Now, there's a spirit which is near me and seems to have a master-disciple relation with me. My religion practices a kind of "willing possession" mediunic frame, in which we concede our bodies to the spirits to work with. One of the main rules is that the possession must be in accordance to the mediuns' will, and anything out of it is met with quite a punch to the spiritual face (small note : spirits do have a really hard time to possess a medium which is unwilling. The spirit just have a lot of strenght over its own body when it has one. Also, spirits are only rarely able to interact with those outside of their emotional range. So, a spirit of great compassion requires that you are able to at least touch the lower boundaries of its compassion to be able to possess your body). That said, my wife is also a medium, and this spirit has possessed her a few times - in which it has treated me with TCM, including tui-na, acupuncture, moxa and cupping. The effects were wonderful, and this spirit has also given me pointers on the Dao and said that it was willing to guide me on qigong as long as i became able to correctly interact with him. Is this what you guys do? Or is it something else?