Prasanna

Roger, you are 100% correct. You are right, here in spirituality the effort is not physical effort but the willingness to pursue spirituality sincerely even though we don't have a full grasp of the subject. In the beginning or initial stages we simply start and proceed in the path with more of faith and interest without understanding or wisdom. The effort here is the same willingness you defined. the main thing is fixation of a higher selfless ideal like self realization, following it up with dedication, perseverance and consistency of purpose till the ideal is achieved. This is the effort in spirituality which are all again dependent on our persistent willingness to continue in the path.

Dwai, Where do you think 3Bob apologized. Can you show me where? I have not seen anything of that sort till now. If there were such a sincere apology, do you think I would waste my time squabbling as you worded it? If you want to remove the off topic posts you should have done it earlier when 3Bob gave all his insults to me. You were watching it and still haven't done anything about it. If you are warning me, then you don't know what you are saying because you are blinded by your many years of friendship with 3bob. I don't need your apology and if at all there was an apology from 3bob, it is too late from him. As a person who instigated this nonsense and as a person who oversaw the seriousness of the wrongs committed here, you both will pay your karmas, I don't need to do anything. Thank you. I will not participate in this discussion anymore which has been posted and continued by a person like you. Don't worry I will not disturb you anymore. Pranam.

Dwai, If you still continue to allow 3Bob to continue his personal insults and disgraceful ways in your post, and still think that I am unnecessarily offended, you are no different from him. I see you giving your like to an extremely egoistic stance in a spiritual discussion. If that is what your level of spiritual edification is, who is bothered?

First of all, you both mind yourselves. I don't need your advice in any form. Let me remind you that you are not my Guru and you haven't behaved with the magnanimity of a Guru till now.

3Bob, I need not explain to somebody who is arguing with me, yet to make you know that I have not presented my personal view but a well established Upanishadic view I will quote you what our great rishis (sages) have said there in it. "Ekam Sat Vipraabahudhaa Vadhanthi". If you have least of humility, google it and find out what the meaning is. I don't need to explain to somebody who is arguing without receptivity. Hinduism is not trivial as you think it is. You have insulted me more than three times and continuing the same thing. I don't need your permission to stay or leave. You better stay away from responding till you know decency to relate with me.

Dwai, Your message to me in the past: "Prasanna, I was not arguing with 3Bob. I was telling him that Shiva + Shakti (Purusha + Prakriti) of Samkhya not different from Brahman of Advaita Vedanta. You are falling into the same trap that you are warning against. Please re-read the discussion and see if you find an element of anger, pointless argumentation here. Most of the people who post here are serious sadhakas and respectful of each other's view points. Those who are not are handled by the moderators." I never said you wer arguing with 3Bob. I am only pointing out that those who are claiming that Shiva + Shakthi is alone Brahman or Vishnu alone is brahman have no clue as to what they are saying. Shiva, Shakthi, vishnu are all names and form of deities, manifestations of the Supreme God Brahman. Even your claim that Shakthi is matter will be refuted by followers of Shaktham, those who claim that Shakthi is the primordial source called Brahman or Supreme most goddess of all the Gods and Goddesses. and the worst thing is to blame me of showing anger where I did not. Do you mean to say that I am not a sincere Sadhak and what on what grounds do you say that? I don't see any difference between you an 3Bob who are only trying to dissuade me from participating in this forum. I don't know why you mistake my words for finding faults with you. William Cowper says in his poem "The Pineapple and the Bee" that: "Those whom the truth and wisdom lead, Can gather honey from a weed". I can only see you both trying to prove the opposite of this.

1) "Please drop the pretense of being a "spiritual" Hindu since one can't do so while also trashing or belittling very important and multiple aspects related to it ! )" 2) Prasanna, Thanks for the additional examples that warn of where your dictator like ego is coming from ! Btw, to try and hide that behind Hindusim is deplorable. Do the words in bold and underlined signify decency in spirituality? And Is this the humility and refinement of English speaking people who are here to learn Hindusim which the Hindus themselves are continuing to strive even now? Very funny to see such a sadistic hypocritical English speaking person who unnecessarily takes things personally with his biased Mind and using disgraceful language.

3Bob,You don't need to tell me whether I am spiritual or not. If you can be polite and receptive take my points or leave it, who is concerned about you who has the least of courtesy as to how to relate properly in a discussion forum like this. I hope you will behave decently in future.

There are two things we have to take into consideration. First is that whether are we Self Realized to see the reality of things as it is? Second is that as long as we are identified with the Body, mind, Intellect and Ego, we will keep thinking or questioning about the authenticity or reality of these experiences. The probability that we are identified with the body, mind, Intellect and ego is more than the probability of being a Self Realized soul if we get such questions in our Mind.

There are fanatical Hindus who fight in the name of Gods like you two and there are spiritual Hindus who want to cross over those trivialities like fighting over name and form. You decide where you want to be.

I am not here to argue over name and form of Gods or arguing about somebody's personal beliefs. My personal request to 3 Bob is either try to understand what I am trying to say in spirit or else have your own notions about Hinduism

William Shakespeare says in his play 'Hamlet' that "There is a method in this madness". This applies to spirituality also. I learnt Vedanta Philosophy from Vedanta Academy under my guru Swami. Parthasarathy. If you are interested in Vedanta philosophy which gives the answers to most of the queries here, you may try reading the books of Swami. Parthasarathy like the "Vedanta Treatise" also sold in its new title called "The Eternities". There are very many books which cover the basics of Vedanta extensively, written by the same author. You may visit the following website to have a glimpse of what is offered by him in the following website: www.vedantaworld.org

It is disheartening to see that Meditation has become merely a fad these days when it has proper purpose in spirituality about which many are unaware of. The point is that one should not force oneself into meditation in the ways it is being commercially sold to the innocents who are seeking peace in life. My guru Swami. Parthasarathy defines "Meditation as the art of focusing our Mind on a chosen thought that the intellect is guiding it, to the exclusion of all the other thoughts". Unless the intellect which is the faculty of thinking is strengthened by spiritual practices of selfless service and sacrifice by the Physical Body, universal love and gratitude towards the Divine Providence, spiritual personalities and noble cum wise benefactors by the Mind, and discrimination of the real from the unreal through study, introspection, reflection and contemplation by the intellect, it is not possible to bring the Mind to single pointed concentration. This is because without spiritual practice our mind is infested with worldly sensual and materialistic desires. Just like how we cannot win a gold medal in 100 mts sprint in Olympic games without proper training and preparation, so is the case with meditation in spirituality. Our mind must not seek peace through meditation but in the contrary, our mind must be at peace to meditate. We should never force our Mind to be at peace as it is a futile effort which will only prove detrimental to our spiritual pursuit. Mind must not be stifled to meditate, but must be trained gradually to meditate through proper practice and preparation provided in the scriptures. Vedanta philosophy prescribes the proper methods and techniques needed to prepare our Mind for meditation. One may try reading the book "Vedanta Treatise" also known by the new title "The Eternities" by Swami. Parthasarathy to get more insights about Vedanta and the right art of meditation. My Swamiji (Swami. Parthasarathy) says that our motto in life must be "To strive, to struggle, not to succeed". True victory is not external success that we imagine, but true victory is in merely taking to the spiritual path and working for our evolution without the least of result orientation. Our attitude must be to do our duty alone and never to worry about the result or never to be anxious about the fruits of action or outcome.

I don't know but about much of the other methods you have quoted in your OP. But, I followed Vedanta philosophy and it is one sure way to get rid of one's own issues, fears and troubles/problems faced in life. The reason is Vedanta traces back the fundamental cause for the issues fear and problems we face. The cause is "Ignorance of our own, original, true Supreme Self within our being". The fundamental reason why we are going through fear, suffering and pain in life is because of this wrong identification with our Body, Mind, intellect and Ego, when in reality we are the absolute and subtlest Supreme Self or God within the innermost core of our being. Vedanta prescribes Karma Yoga, Bhakthi Yoga and Gnana Yoga in appropriate proportions with respect to the personality composition of each and every individual. This helps in eventual elimination of ego and desires of the Mind which are the two main entities that is the source of all the troubles that an individual goes through in life. When this happens, the person automatically turns meditative and achieves the ultimate purpose of life called "Self Realization" from whereon he or she is free from all fears, doubts, problems and sufferings of life. In other words Vedanta teaches the basics of life. We make ourselves and we mar ourselves. We alone are responsible for life and making, nobody else can blamed for our misery, fear and suffering. The individual alone is responsible for his evolution or destruction. Therefore Vedanta teaches the techniques to refine our attitude from selfish egoism to selfless service and sacrifice. It very clearly states the truth of life that we do not get what we desire in life always, but we always get what we deserve in life. Stop desiring and start deserving is one of the main clarion call of Vedanta to humanity.

When I explain spirituality I don't bring in the religious aspect like Shiva or Vishnu like you have done. I try to maintain a neutral stance and talk in generic terms like God, so that it doesn't affect the sensitivity of the other person. FYI you started that thing about Saivism, not me.

One more thing I would like to add is that Vishnu and Shakthi are brother and sister. Vishnu gives the hand of Parvathi (Shakthi) to Shiva in marriage bond. Now I think it should be clear how all the deities are related. Brahma (The creator) sprang from the navel of Lord Vishnu.

I am from south india and I am born a Vaishnavite. Yet I know about Saivism to the extent any normal Hindu would know, not beyond that. In my tradition, it is not Shiva which is the supreme Brahman, but Vishnu or Lord Narayana who is the absolute Truth. It is very funny that you are arguing about manifestations of the almighty Brahman from whom the tritnity namely, Brahma (The creator), Vishnu (The maintainer) and Shiva (The destroyer) have all sprung from. This is the basic of Hinduism.

This is a very beautiful topic for discussion. The first point is that we must question for whom does the effort is needed and for whom does no effort is applicable. Those people in the worldly life may not have applied any effort in the sense of spiritual seeking, but yet their actions are all efforts towards their spiritual evolution. In the world, everyone of us are in some stage of spiritual development which only an evolved spiritual master can recognize properly. Spiritual personality like Ramana Maharishi, Budhdha, Adi Sankara, Swami Rama Tirtha have all achieved the effortless state of Self Realization in their births because of proper efforts in their previous Janmas. Swami Rama Tirtha says that every individual will be naturally and automatically pushed towards their spiritual evolution and eventual Self Realization beyond which there is no effort needed in life. Lord Shri Krishna in the Shrimad Bhagavad Gita explains about the effort needed in the spiritual path to get to that state of zero effort existence called Self Realization.It is Karma Yoga, Bhakthi Yoga and Gnana Yoga in approprriate proportions with respect to the composition of the individual personality that alone can lead to the final meditation and eventual Self Realization. Lord krishna says that first a higher noble goal/ideal like Self Realization which is beyond our selfish egoism is necessary. Then that ultimate ideal of Self Realization must be followed with proper efforts of Karma, Bhakthi and Gnana Yogas with dedication, perseverance and consistency of purpose till the goal/ideal is achieved. I would like to add a few thoughts from the Mundakopanishad. There it is said that a person must take to spiritual pursuit when has analysed the world and life through personal experiences (Parikshya Lokaan...) and who has performed selfless actions (Karmachithaan....). The seeker who has thus done proper analysis and research of life experiences goes to the great spiritual master with utmost humility driven by the real quest to know the ultimate truth alone. For such a person, the yearning to know the truth will be a burning from within which is what is termed as Mumukshathwa in Sanskrit. That conscious yearning for spiritual liberation to to liberate from the worldly bondage and achieve Self Realization is what will help us progress in the path.

Vedanta is the science of human personality. Vedanta is the science of our inner being. It involves introspection, reflection, contemplation, and meditation along with karma and Bhakthi in appropriate proportions depending on the basic composition of our personality. Vedanta is a guide for spiritual pursuit and teaches the technique of self inquiry till we achieve Self realization. Coming to the topic of this discussion, the mind or Manas in Sanskrit, the intellect or Budhdhi in Sanskrit, and the ego or Ahamkara in Sanskrit are all subtler constituents of our inner personality. Mind is defined as the faculty of emotions or feelings. Therefore desires, likes and dislikes, impulsiveness, emotions like anger, greed, jealousy, envy, ostentation, pretense, lust, pride, etc. are all due to the Mind or Manas. Mind also has a positive side to it. It is the same mind that expresses universal love, gratitude, impartial friendship, forgiveness, compassion, kindness, grace, helping tendency, unconditioned true affection for fellow beings, etc. Mind is a subtle faculty which is subtler than the gross body and grosser than Intellect and Ego. Intellect is defined as the faculty of thinking. Therefore, fundamentally all our thoughts emerge from the intellect. Intellect is responsible for all aspects of thinking like discerning, comprehension, understanding, logic, reasoning, conclusion, discrimination, etc. Intellect is subtler than Mind and gross physical body, but grosser than Ego (Ahamkara). Ahamkara or Ego is due to the Causal body (Ananda Maya Kosha) which is subtler than the physical body, Pranas (various internal systems and internal organs), Manas (Mind) and Budhdhi (Intellect), but grosser than the Atman or Supreme Self. The subtler the faculty, it has more pervasiveness and greater control over the grosser faculties. Subtlety means pervasiveness and control over the gross. for example, Manas exists by itself, Permeates cum pervades the pranas and physical body and also has greater control over the functioning of pranas and physical body. Buddhi or the Intellect permeates all the three namely, the Mind (Manas), Pranas and the physical body and also has greater control over the grosser three called the Manas, Pranas, Physical Body (Sthoola Sharira). You can use the same equation to the rest of the subtler aspects called Ego and Atman (Supreme Self). Ego is that aspect of personality which gives the individual a independent and separate or distinct personality different from the True Supreme Self within. The entire spiritual effort is to achieve oneness with the Atman or Supreme Self by giving up or losing our identification with the grosser ego, intellect, mind, internal organs and physical body through the spiritual practices of Karma Yoga, Bhakthi Yoga and Gnana Yoga. This is Self Realization. For reference, you may check these details in the book called "The Eternities" also called as "Vedanta Treatise" by Swami. Parthasarathy.

Can you explain yourself in a better way so that I too can understand what you are trying to ask me? In Vedanta we talk about the state of Self Realization which is what the scriptures pronounce as the ultimate purpose of life. Now you are bringing terms like Shiva and Shakthi to which I am not very much familiar with. Shiva or Shakthi are all just different manifestations of the supreme Brahman. There is Lord Vishnu too whom you have not mentioned here, why? Disinterested interest in the affairs of the world due to Self Realization is an effect of growing over one's own desires of the Mind and ego. Reduction of desires of the mind and reduction is a sign of spiritual growth. Sakshi Bhava or the "being a Witness to the affairs of the world without least involvement" can be an explanation for the term disinterested interest which is what the spiritual seekers strive to achieve in their spiritual pursuit.

I am sorry if I have given you a wrong impression about any aspect of the world. The first think that the spiritual pursuit teaches is humility, not the arrogance that I know everything. We are talking about a conscious transformation from a worldly living to a transcended living with a disinterested interest in life. Life is all about progressively working for our perfection of the personality. Life is about working for our individual evolution with consistency of purpose. I personally do not approve of unrighteousness, nothing else.

The first thing I realized in the spiritual path is that the path is unique for everyone, that is, there is no one common remedy for all. Result orientation or anxiety to achieve the ultimate Self Realization itself will prove to be a resistance to our spiritual evolution. Therefore, we must have a good understanding that mere taking to spirituality is itself a very great blessing and accomplishment since we know that the truth we are seeking is not there in the worldly pursuit. Turning to spirituality itself is half the job done. No true spiritual aspirant must have result orientation in any period/point of the spiritual pursuit. It is better that the spiritual development be gradual and not hurried. We should see to that neither we are complacent (lazy) nor be over enthusiastic or excessively excited. Satsang or company of the good, noble, righteous, virtuous and wise spiritual people, gurus, true benefactors is essential for the pursuit Spiritual development is marked by one's level of objectivity, self sufficiency, humility, non-hatred for all the beings, self control or control of the senses, etc. Fixation of higher, selfless, noble ideals beyond our egocentric desires and ego boosting selfishness is vital. That should be followed with perseverance, consistency of purpose, dedication and devotion till the ultimate ideal is achieved. The optimal progress is achieved only if we feel the pinch slightly when pitching up our intermediate goals in the path and never ever by overexerting or over burdening beyond our capacity. Over burdening and over exertion will only result in quitting the pursuit abruptly there itself. Acceptance of personal ignorance and wise counsel of a Guru or spiritually evolved person is necessary for progress in the spiritual path. A wise guru or a spiritually evolved person will be able to find our blind spots and areas of ignorance easily. Gratitude towards the Divine Providence, the Gurus, the spiritually evolved people, true benefactors can take us to our zenith of spiritual experience. Count your blessings always. The air we breath, the sun light, the water, other essentials are for free or for a pittance. We have been provided with a life without any utility tag by the supreme creator, but we make a mess of our life by our egoism, selfishness, sensuality, materialism and utilitarian/secular pursuits. The law of life is that we make ourselves or we mar ourselves,nobody else and nothing else can truly affect us. We always get what we deserve and what not we desire. We need to perform actions in such a way that we deserve the grace and blessings of the almighty for ever. We must grow up from desire, envy, jealousy, hatred, pride, greed, anger, pretence, etc. to revelling in the welfare of all the beings. We must genuinely feel from the depths of our heart that we all beings are one family of that supreme reality and always promote love for each other. "Vasudeiva Kutumbakam"

How to succeed? Find out your areas of interest and the nature of your personality through introspection, reflection and self inquiry. Take up things which are both your areas of interest and compatible to your individual nature. Fix higher ideals beyond your ego and selfish interests like materialism and sensuality. Work selflessly in that area with duty consciousness and sacrificial attitude. The law of nature is that whatever work that is done selflessly as an oblation to a higher noble cum virtuous ideal shall certainly bring success at both material and spiritual realms.

Namaste, It is a matter of time and sincerity in spiritual pursuit that every seeker will get to this understanding. Otherwise it means still that ego sustains without total surrender to the supreme Reality. That way one needs further refinement of their personality when engaged in the spiritual pursuit. Nothing to worry about. Pranam.

One more thing that I like to add is, even if we want to pursue a spiritual path, we need minimum experiences of life to pursue that spiritual path steadfast and with understanding.