Pilgrim

I suppose the Buddha probably did say that, but I do not go along with he over intellectualization of the Buddha based philosophies, or the ideas that became Buddhism that grew out of Hinduism. Heck for that matter I have no idea which Buddha you are referring to there are so many different ones. So of interest what is the difference between a Bhudda and a Jivenmukta are they not really one and the same? It seems to me one incarnates and is active with the people and the other gets big books people can quote from?

Ah yes we are more Hindu about this in the replies. I am anyway blended with my own observations of course. This Buddha you are describing however is not engaged in the world which is fine. Is he smoking? is he doing anything but being detached and dispassionate? I am glad he has true happiness. Must be lonely at the top.

Not that they cant move beyond but simply see no reason to land on either side and simply let the body take it's comfort. So perhaps from their point of view it is a difference that makes no difference. Certainly they are aware of their bodies, hunger etc..

Yes it is the same desire as breathing. The desire to avoid pain and to get pleasure. If seeking pleasure is addiction then we are all hopeless addicts.

I smoked for 17 years. Then I decided I was not enjoying it and bouts of Bronchitis every winter got old. So I took Chantex Spelling? Within 1 week or so I quit and it has been over 12 years now since I picked one up. My brother took Chantix and still smokes till this day. The woman I live with smokes and enjoys yet I have no desire to join her. I have seen her smoke up to a pack in a single day that is 20 Ciggs more often it is far less and she will go a very long time in-between. When I smoked I would smoke a pack to a pack and a half per day. This idea of addiction is more complex than not. I also do not believe it is a real thing. Human beings are habit oriented. Habits help us somehow habits has become connected with negative behaviors. Stop the habit long enough and it goes away. When I stopped smoking it took 3 things. Chantix for a week or so made it so the Nicotine could not bind to the receptor sites in the brain. This broke the physical habit. The psychological work was every time I thought about smoking to tell myself this is not to do. (This is a Zen trick. I can go into it if anyone wants to know.) The third part was reconnecting with my prana and before long the energetic body became more important. Through the practice of Pranayam. I would say that in all honesty after 6 months I was done, but yes it took that long.

But what about the ones who actually enjoy know they are enjoying and are not seeking to overcome anything? What do you call that?

I invoke the Obi Wan Kenobi clause

If I am not mistaken is this conversation taking place in th context of different levels of reality wherein the earthly manifestation is little more than a motion picture?

I have considered this as well and the answer I came up with was something like this. 1. It is entirely possible Tobacco, Alcohol use / consumption, or other things you can imagine may very well be something in the physical body where the demand is present. We like to use phrases like addiction but might it not be something else? Lets consider that in recent times there is mounting evidence for genetic memory playing a part in our lives. If this is the case then a body that has a desire for a certain substance may be hardwired for it, due to ancestral use of certain things like Tobacco or Alcohol. In this case I would say the realized being is simply allowing the body it's relief, no different than urinating with a full bladder. 2. The other possibility is a fan favorite of mine. There are stories of Highly realized beings in India like Trailanga Swami doing all kinds of incredible things, like eating a red hot coal and incurring no damage. Or allowing someone to attempt to poison them and drinking the Lye that was supposed to be milk and the effects not bothering the saint, the one who tried to harm him was stricken by Karma immediately and experienced the harm in their own stomach until the swami pardoned them. The point of the second example being that once has gone beyond the state of being dependent on the physical reality and is merely inhabiting a form and can transmute by will alone the atoms of this world then they are free to do as they wish. Until you can don't try to imitate them. Stick with the milk.

This is the description of a sociopath. How can you say Karma and repercussions are different from each other? I would like to read how they are separate.

If this is indeed howe it reads I am pretty sure this is meant in the sense of accumulating negative karma to be paid back later. I am also fairly certain that what they are describing is from a certain state of being not the normal enjoyment of relative awareness that is common to so many. I can assure you performing an illegal action in the presence of a police officer will grant one immediate karmic reaction to the actions performed. IE Getting arrested.

Hi Shad282 just be be clear I do not teach. As far as runnuing from one teacher or another it is recommended to do just that. If someone tells you otherwise run like hell! Atleast for a while then you will settle without doubts.

When and if you desire to learn the things I have shared feel free to contact me, whatever I can help with I will.

Oh thank goodness you received some formal training in this. Yes it can cause trouble. Vippasana ZaZen Self Inquiry Transdental Meditation Deep Meditation of Yogani All of these are very advanced non directed forms of practice. All of these have dangers. Yogani recognized the inherent dangers of TM which his Deep meditation does have aspects of. This is why he blended other techniques in to his system many of them borrowed from Kriya and other comparable systems in order to prepare the centers and the channels for what will come. Ok so what are the dangers right? You can have openings your mental, emotional and physical bodies are not ready for. If this manifests strongly enough it will harm your physical body. If it manifests in the emotional realm you are going to have very troubled feelings can become disturbed and have drastic mood swings to include reacting out of proportion to the slightest of things. For example someone says something and you uncontrollably yell at them. If it manifest in the mental body you can suffer disconnection from your emotions and your very life. These are all very serious. If vipassana is something you feel drawn to do and are comfortable with it then that is your decision, but I worry for you after reading what you have shared. I have eaten my share of camels I did not have adequate guidance in the beginning and had to learn things the hard way, I would spare anyone and everyone the things that can be avoided or at the very least made easier to go through. This is my interest in humanity.

Shad 282 This is symptomatic of non directed practices. It is exactly what I have been using too many words to caution against. Your crown chakra is stimulated this is where the sense of loss of identity or disconnection is coming from because your awareness is attempting to seat itself there and is to some extent without adequate preparation this can lead to panic attacks and emotional disorders. Do be aware each center has it's own loka, or dimension of emotional and mental modifications that the awareness becomes modified to as it attunes to the specific dimensional frequency of said Loka. One of the jobs of a Yogi is to become familiar with these modifications to ones awareness and learn not only how to cope with them but to develop as well. The throat tightness is coming from the crown calling you upwards and you are not ready so the throat is putting the brakes on. This is a good thing. Vipassana is getting into the realm of ZaZen it is so simple people do not recognize the power and the inherent danger of these practices. Vipassana is a very advance method and there most certainly is danger. Often the simpler methods are the most powerful and dangerous. It is a shame that they are being pushed out and pedaled with no real support for the individual when they find themselves either in a crises situation or approaching one.

Life contemplation takes courage. Good job. You can relieve that tightness of throat and crown by certain techniques.

And rugged looking too!

Good Morning Shad282, Hmmm It is difficult to know where to start. By nature, not nurture nor indoctrination I am Tantric and inclined towards Vedic practices. It has been discussed here that self inquiry should be avoided in the stage you have expressed as it could potentially lead to depression. In this case I agree. Self inquiry is not suitable for most people. Self Inquiry such as Who AM I, Who is this I who thinks these thoughts for every thought that comes up is for those who are very ripe for this type of practice. My advice avoid it for now. Self Inquiry is not the same thing as practicing mindfulness and being more present there is however a danger even with this. More on this later. It has been discussed that being present practicing mindfulness may not be understood. Mindfulness links can be provided all over the internet and I do not believe you need educated to what it means, as you already know. I will however discuss this and offer ways and means. In an earlier post I strongly advised the practices of the 9 breaths and TSA Lung. I also advised indirectly to learn from the Lama presenting these practices. He in my opinion will be excellent for you in the place you have expressed you are coming from. This Lama Tenzin Rinpche adjusts the BON tradition for the Western Audience and addresses directly the Emotional and Mental bodies in his teachings. He is quite entertaining at times and a very great teacher for humanity. I also recommend The following book. Awakening the Sacred Body by the same Lama, it can be found on Amazon. From this you will learn more in-depth the practices of TSA LUNG there are three levels to each practice from the most obvious to the subtle. Truly a priceless publication. To be perfectly clear I do not advise anyone practice Zazen without first learning how to control the currents in the spine, otherwise when you reach the still point you are going to find a reservoir of energy waiting to express through you. This energy is not dumb. This energy is not just electricity. The nerves of your meat and bone body will interpret it as electricity, sensations of heat and cold, and yes extreme orgasmic bliss. Orgasmic bliss can and will be experienced and not just in your genitals but even in your fingers and in a body that is not made of meat and bone. Your brain will receive pleasure such as you may or may not have ever experienced in your life. The Tantric path is the path of using ones own facility to enjoy / experience pleasure and bliss and transform through it. Stodgy misinformed people like to suffer, they think it somehow is what it is all about. These are crazy people, ignore them. I have read all manner of silliness about people withholding ejaculation and sexual expression for fear of loosing their chi etc... They are not wrong, but they are ignorant. It is just as easy to replenish as it is to deplete through release and both are good. One needs to learn how to replenish. The practices of Tsa Lung will accomplish this. One needs to release as often as is needed which is simple to determine. When the mind and emotions become coarse and the genitals overly sensitive it is time, let the body release, this is not the time to clamp down and refuse the body it's need to do so as this becomes torture to the body which in turn causes torture in the emotions and the mind and leads to all sorts of disfunction. There is ample medical documentation proving release is healthy for the female and male body. I have read so much where the female is condemned either directly or indirectly, have read of people accusing females of being responsible for their own arousal response to the presence of a energetically aware and powerful female even on a forum "She made me Leak" Ohhh bad female it's all your fault!! Give me a freaking break and please do take responsibility for your own sharing of presence is my reply to that. Unfortunately the ability to share presence often develops before the maturity level to interact or not and morality of compassion is fully developed. This is not all peoples fault, it is largely due to a direct lack of education and mentoring and is pleasurable until harm is done to others. Spiritual puberty, awakening to the more refined realms of interaction or sharing space is not so very easy and many get stuck at this strata for a long, long, time. Oh well to each there own, in there own good time, no matter how badly anyone wants to remain in a certain strata there is a certain movement towards the ever more refined that can not be stopped, it can be slow as the movement of a glacier but also as unstoppable. At other times it can also be a Avalanche and this must be prepared for. This energy is transformative and it can and will change the very bedrock of your emotional and mental bodies. You will still be you with all your attributes, preferences etc. and so on but gradually over time the you, you are, will change. I have said all I care to say about energy, bliss and transformation for the moment, now I would like to return to the topic of being mindful and present in the eternal everlasting moment which is the now. Before doing so however please do understand that even such apparently simple practices can lead to the still point, the atom point and there, ah there, their be dragons. Remember always the energy flows from the stillness, the spaciousness, the silence. Prepare as I have described above with examples of this fine teacher and his publications. Kriya is another path but it is not suitable for everyone as it is very direct and condensed and one really needs to be able to reach the still point and move energy in order to effectively practice it. Still one may prepare as the practices lead to the still point as everything does. Prepare, Prepare, Prepare till the soil to grow a good crop. Zazen the word means sitting Zen. What Zen means can be debated until the cows come home. It has much in common with the highest teaching of Dzog Chen. Zen also is about being here now, totally, completely in the moment. If you have read these words you are already out of the moment. It is that simple, that profound, that difficult and at the same time that easy. Be here now in every precious ruby like moment. Imagine the ticking of the second hand of a clock or a watch. As that needle moves that moment has passed. If a person will do their very best to be here present 100% in each and every moment as we divide it into seconds and further down into pico seconds one will swiftly discover all of ones life is here right now in this moment, moment after moment and this is the reality of ones existence. Past is memory and an illusion, the present has already passed with the typing of these words, the future mostly imagination and projections. So where in do we live? What is real? This very moment and in reading these words you have lost the moment. Everything is available right here right now in this moment. Moment after moment. Each moment is pregnant with possibility. In this moment there is joy, there is happiness, there is bliss. You determine your reality by being present in this moment. Being present to the best of ones ability does not require strain, at first it may require some remembering to do so, but my goodness what a burden and how will you accomplish anything like earning a living to pay for your housing, your food your cloths? Well most of us are not monks so we need a way that takes care of this for us until, until it becomes our natural way of living. What the OP is experiencing is not depression. What he is experiencing is the birth of the witness, the ever abiding witness and this is a difficult time. Mindfulness is the only way, the way to progress and grow comfortable with being the witness as it can lead one to feeling disconnected. One needs Formal Seated practices that will make this comfortable and automatic and then one needs to learn to let go and not resist, Ha, Ha , ha how brilliant we all are if we just let go and let the stream carry us and ask what do I need to do next and simply just do it. Even the monks perform formal seated practices to prepare. Forcing mindfulness is not mindfulness, it is neurotic misunderstanding in action. Formal seated practices are what is needed. Practice 1/2 hour to 1 hour per day. This is enough. When I practiced Zazen which is mindfulness seated there was a simple practice of counting to 10 while inhaling and exhaling eyes half open with a blank wall in front of you Half lotus or lotus posture or Burmese posture park your ass on the cushion (Zafu and Zabuton) and find the still point where mind ceases for prolonged periods of time. Finding the still point is done by Counting 1 then 2 then 3 and then loosing the words and seeing the numbers, and then feeling the impulse behind the numbers, and then lingering on the impulse alone and mind seeks the root the depths and then... and then... the still point and you will return not knowing where you just were, if you are inhaling or exhaling, what number you were on what stage of life you are in Am I a child, Am I in my twenties or my 30's or my 40's Am I an 90 year old remembering his life? It can happen in a split second and then.... and then... the illusion of time is reveled as much time will have passed as you were in Samadhi. This sounds frightening and when it first happens you wonder if you should be afraid but there is a assurance this is good and right and something from beyond returns with you. That something is recognition of you own existence in different realms concurrently with the limited human life you are now experiencing and the human is growing from this. Many think the direction is away from being human but this is not quite correct we came here to be human and become human and to bring our humanity into our dimensions of being which have nothing to do with humanity. We are God becoming Human and Human becoming God. Then and only then when our humanity has something to do with the other dimensions of our being are we fulfilling the evolutionary process. We are already whole and complete but we are unaware. To decide I am aware is not enough. Great gouts of energy can accompany the returns from samadhi and in time proceed it and bliss will lead one into samadhi. There is a danger here when the mind ceases the witness is open to naked reality. We as human beings are not so good at dealing with naked reality all at once because we live in a very narrow protected stratum that has its own set of checks and balances to prevent sensory overload and incapacitation while in this form of meat and bone. Once the mind is brought to a place of one pointedness the barriers to the wider reality are lowered or dilate to a more open view. The wider reality is always present it is not dependent upon the one perceiving it. This is where practice such as TSA LUNG the 9 Breaths and the accompanying psychological work dealing with direct impulses the Tibetan way need to be performed. One needs to prepare the soil of ones own being before going extra sensory. When the time comes with the dawning of the witness there is no choice but to move forwards wher you are now is not comfortable. It Hurts. People come to what is coined spirituality and websites like this because there is a need in some cases like the OP they are desperately seeking guidance. Why? Because something has changed, Because it is painful to be in the place they are currently occupying. Pain is not avoidable, suffering is optional. Pain is a good friend, we hate. It surprises us and it wakes us up. Pain forces us out of our comfort zone and onto broader vistas of existence, we hate change, we hate pain. We love finding a nice fuzzy warm niche with a fire on a cold rainy day a refuge a shelter. This is good. Occupied too long and the warren begins to stink, our bones begin to ache with inactivity and our minds become unhappy. We need to learn to enter our inner refuge. Change is needed. Those who came before us and created systems like BON, like Kriya figured out long ago how to be in a constant state of change of progression how to be present now without discomfort or forcing oneself to the exclusion of taking care of ones duties to life like doing the laundry, working, earning a paycheck. BON is a monastic tradition Kriya is a tradition for the working people or house holders. BON has very good practices it is very deep and wide and all encompassing for every level of incarnating humanity that has reached the stage of progression or those on the cusp often curiosity and grasping is the hallmark. Bon is impossible to practice in its entirety unless you are a monk and maybe not even then. Most people will find the parts that work and adopt them. Kriya was developed from monastic practices for the working people. The practices are completely scalable to the individuals ability and time to practice. They are very potent and direct for this very reason. Effective practices will lead one to the state of being more present in the moment in ones daily life and much more at ease it is a by product. The most important thig is two fold. One must learn how to channel energy even if at first it is just imagination. Mind, visualization in meditation practices influences the subtle emotional and mental bodies, these are the conduits for the wider reality and the pipes need to be clean and clear of mental and emotional forms which clog them. Not 100% just enough the practices will cause them to release and the person should know with the release there can be acute pain of emotions and mind. This then needs to be accompanied by the practice of entering into ones inner refuge and spaciousness cessation of hate in stillness and spaciousness allows love to grow. You need that spaciousness where hate was occupying freed up then love flowers. This I have learned from Tinzen Rinpoche. One must then learn or even at the same time to enter into stillness, openness, spaciousness within. This is not an absolute!!! No not at all. Some very bad teachers forget to point this out! You just need a little. A dab will do ya! When the stillness is enough, when the silence is enough, when the spaciousness is enough then the energy is going to flow. It must! It is inevitable. Then...………… and Then...…………………. Your mind, and the deeper witness is going to ride the winds of bliss, mind is going to be stunned in exalted glories that have nothing to do with this mundane world...…….. Then you are becoming aware of the larger reality which has always been, independent and ever present. The troublesome mind which has caused oh so many feelings will become one with this divine expression of the universe unknown to all save those who know it. In this time one needs to know how to focus and channel the bliss otherwise it is going to hurt the meat body. One needs to have prepared and purified the channels sufficiently not perfectly not shiny like a mirror just enough to avoid injury is good. One then can practice Kriya effectively. I have already said too much. So much of this must be experienced by doing to validate the reality words only scrape at. During the day..... The after effect, the after effect is the natural abiding in the present in the now, with a degree of ease and comfort and no it is not perfect for the most advanced it becomes so, but for the rest of us in degrees and it is good. Prepare, Prepare, Prepare and park your butt on the cushion this is the way. Yes there are difficulties. Yes you will go through very, very serious life changes. I most certainly have, In the last year I divorced my wife of many years as we had grown apart and incompatible, lost my house, lost my pets, lost a great deal of money and had to fight with lawyers in a ridiculous case where no children were involved and the former wife is financially independent. I had no choice, my changes were such. Yes I had created a comfortable Den but it began to stink, and my bones were aching, there was pain and suffering, there has been change. I have gained so much more in return by being true to myself. Suffering did happen but it was conditional and has passed and the trauma of a divorce is decreasing daily, to stay as I was it was perpetual. Change is inevitable Pain is inevitable Suffering is optional especially when there are skillful ways and means available to all.

Sure seems that way Marblehead. Dear OP on a phone now will add some content later for you and anyone else that may benifit.

Thanks for clarifying your position. Suggestion Nungali if you do not want people in an open forum to respond to you. Drop the in quotes game when you dislike the way a reply makes you feel and directly address the person and just say I only want your reply, Nungali, you know, by name Nungali. Better yet just send them a Private Message. BTW if someone would like to address this reply feel free it is an open forum. Whats with all the sensitivity lately with different people bitching about I wasn't talking to you to other members? Nungali isnt the only one who does it.

It is not so difficult. You just have to have already experienced what he is describing. It does not require special powers of intuition. When you find your way home at night it is not a miracle, just a road you are accustomed to. If you are just a little accomplished in formal sitting practices these states are very well known for what they are. The OP did a very good job of describing what they are experiencing and it is most assuredly not depression.

Here, here well said, Ol boy, Well said indeed!

Oh Im pretty sure the people responding as well as the OP are well aware of the seriousness of the state. I am curious though why you are of the opinion that being present in the now and being mindfull is somehow harmful.

Oh no you Just Didn’t....... I feels a strange song bursting within...