MIchael80

In those modern version which are not fully alchemical but use parts of alchemy there is meditation. In Alchemy systems with the full alchemial method the neidan is a moving form or sitting but with hands moving. No chi is stored in the ldt. If you want to learn these modern forms Wang Liping (or one of his teachers ) and Damo Mitchell are great for that. Or qianfengpai should also be great. best

because in alchemy you do not work with sexual energy........jing is that which makes up the whole body not just sexual energy. And alchemy works with pre-heaven forms of energy.....that are not of the body at all

Jing is the energy that makes up the body, all its liquids etc. (the sexual fluids are only one part of it) Qi is the energy that moves it. the terms you use are alchemical....which means that in alchemy one works only with the pre-heaven chi and jing (which repairs the post-heaven jing and chi). But since not many teach the full alchemical method and all the books that are on the market about neidan are the modern nothern method (which is watered down) you should read some of these. first you need to "lay the foundations" (which means replenishing the yuan stuff in alchemy.....though in modern times it often means just using a little qi gong to balance the body). Look into "daoist internal mastery" from Wang Liping "white moon on the mountain peak" from Damo Mitchell "neidan for everyone" forgot the author all of these books teach only watered down forms of alchemy but better than nothing best

Hi! When will this book be out? best Michael

shugden was allowed to be whorshipped til the 70's when the Dalai Lama forbide that (a lot still do). I do not do that and i do not care. I do not care if he broke his vows as i think that is bs all together and has nothing to do with spirituality but with cultural package. His books give great descriptions of the vajrayana techniques and the path that is what i am interested in.....all power to those who break the secrecy of the systems (in any tradition). best

It is called "Great Bliss: Tantric Sex and the path to inner awakening" by John T. Housemann Seems to be the only book which describes the karmamudra stuff....though that is the highest one so nothing for beginners. the book is quite good as it strips tantra of some layers of the almost religous "doings" that has accumulated over the centuries. It starts with prelimaneries and goes on to very high stuff (including self initiation with the deity)....... I would also read the books from Geshe Kelsang Gyatso.....very practical and eveything in except the karmamudra stuff. (but has some infos about visualized deity partners). best

Hi Dwai! thanks for your clarification! However as i pointed out....to me that is not true (and what i heard of very high level teachers).....sure you can cange the body through alchemical techniques.....but in most tradtions who speak of this phenomena who do not use alchemical stuff they frame the disolution of the physical body as the full karma disolution (even the karmic stains in the elements of the body are purified with changes the elements back to their original state...which later brings the disolution of the body like ramalinga). Buddha taught different vehicles and highest yoga tantra was his highest. As far as i know this phenomena has happened in almost all traditions....though in some more often than in others. David Buckland (and i also think Lorne Hoff) is of the impression that this is a natural process (after awakening) if the embodyment is allowed (which most often is not as this brings all the suppressed traumas to the surface) but maybe cannot complete because naturally it would take a lot of time (because of the density of the body) to complete. (so we would have to get older than we currently do to let that happen). so your quote does not make sense to me.....because if the body disolves that is a deeper karmic purification that just letting it die. (it only makes sense if we come to the light body through techniques, but then we are not awake even though we have the light body). best

Hi dwai! I do not aggree with that statement. Highest yoga tantra and dzogchen ...both budhist traditions mention the rainbow body and see it as the highest expression of enlightenment. Even in the yoga sutras i think there is a line like "perfection of the body comes last".....there is also this light body phenomena in sufi sects.....a lot of traditions see the transformation of the body as the hightest form of enlightenment as it is the deepest form of embodying the absolute. Some modern teachers like David Buckland or Lorne Hoff speak also in that direction and say that the transfomration of the body happens naturally if allowed but takes a long time. best

Hi! From my point of view....all this stuff comes to one when the inner intent is right. I have met a neidan master who is earth immortal (meaning physical immortality). i also met an alchemist who made the philosophers stone and gave me a small piece of it (taking it every day will keep one young eternally). Yeah dzogchen does have more rainbow bodies than most other traditions but!!! most achive only the small rainbow body, meaning they die after a normal human life and then the dead body just shrinks. It is a little like Michael Sternbach said....but there is no need to follow these obscure texts....one can get these achievements through different ways...inner intent and then follow the guidance that comes from within and without will do it. there are neidan schools that have a strong alchemical principle that teach....the here on the daobums so hated "russians" are part of 2 chinese schools who teach these stuff (yes they are very boasty but the schools are very legit). If you look into another thread about the "christ oil" you could do that and your inner guidance will be very strong....so you can find the secrets yourself over time. best

HI lifeforce! Really enjoy reading your experriences with that process! As you write it seems to destroy your previous beliefsystems...which is hard but also very freeing. As i have not watched the clips: what is the goal of this process? How long will it take to come to its goal? You wrote about the physical body going through alchemical change...will this result in extreme longevity, rainbow body etc.? thanks for taking time to answer my questions!! All the best on your way :-) Michael

Immortality after death means that you die consciously and stay conscious during death and thereby eleminating the need for reincarnation. Physcial immortality is a very high state....and can mean just staying young or can even mean unkillable (adamantine body)...for that the elements have to bereversed into their original state...not many achieve that. Pal Pandian from a real Tamil Siddha lineage speaks about some of this in his book..... Interesting theme.....only mediation will not do it... Aurobindo has some interesting insights into that topic but not the means to really complete that work. best!

Some simple waidan is in Jerry A. Johnsons neigong book. there are not much authentic sources for waidan (which is just external alchemy) and those who have the kowledge keep it very secret...but that stuff is real even up to the philosophers stone (the external elixier)...there are some neidan schools that also do waidan but keep it very secret. best

Hi! mmmhhhh we have to be careful with words here......and i do not want a discussion. that the physical and energetic bodies go through further unfoldment there is no doubt about that..... however what i quoted does speak about the further unfolding of consciousness/awareness itself....quote: 'States of Consciousness' does not mean states of individual consciousness. It means states of Consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is an unbounded field of pure Awareness. you call that Self awake presence.....to me that sounds like that.....however there is unfolding beyond this awake presence...it actually feels like loosing it or falling out of it......to some that is deeply shocking.....but as it stabalizes a new perspective comes online and it is seen that even pure awareness is still a veil over true reality. David joked about a guy who thought he was finished for the 3 times now :-) Ahh you have seen Davids batgap interviews! great! he is not the greatest speaker but the only one who (as far as i know) speaks from what is called pure divinity which is sometimes called "source of the source" because from there it is seen that it is the source of the Self aware presence. To me there are 2 types of unity...one before the awakening to pure aware being and the other (the one that is described in the text from Lorne and Lucia) is when awake presence/being reconizes itself fully in the creation...so that happens after an initial abiding awakening. With the loosing of personhood....i would say the identification is lost ..not the personhood. to me it seems like there is much more to these "lets call them states" than we currently know. There is just too much variance and i shy away from this is the true unfolding and this is not. From a lineage perspective to me an authentic Tamil siddha lineage (through Pal Pandian) is the most complete system/teaching i am aware of. best

Hi Spotless! the post was written by Lorne and Lucia Hoff from Canada. they are not very famous but they have a good record of people waking up in their retreats (as far as i know should be over 2 dozens now). They do vids and retreats that do not focus much on the mind but mostly are a talk from "SELF to SELF". https://www.lucialorn.net/ there are others who speak about this further unfolding now. www.davidya.ca (he has also written a book about the stages of consciousness and also has 2 batgap interviews). Even Adyashanti talks about the "beyond/prior to consciounsess" stage now as does Kristin Kirk and Jac o Keefe. (i think the first who did this in the more modern time was nisargadatta maharaj, who spoke about that towards the end of his life) To me that is an important step...knowing that no matter how final pure awareness feels...there is acutally "something" beyond that awarness. best

This has been more of the "experience" here: (quoted)......and because of that i do not like the true awakening talk. Awareness of Presence or "Transcendental Consciousness" is the experience of expanded alert awareness along with profound peace and silence, either in the environment in activity, or deep within during silent meditation. There can be the feeling of detachment from the body/mind. It is a fourth definite state of consciousness unlike waking, dream or sleep. It is a precursor to the actual shift to Self-remembrance. Transcendental Consciousness is being awake to the silent peace and stillness that is the true nature of the Self. There can be many degrees of intensity and various levels of witnessing in trancendental consciousness, but the clear recognition by the Self of the Self has not yet occurred. There are millions of people around the world today experiencing varying degrees of presence consciousness.  States of Consciousness 'States of Consciousness' does not mean states of individual consciousness. It means states of Consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is an unbounded field of pure Awareness. There are distinct perspectivess of Consciousness of itself as it becomes more awake its total reality, and there are many levels of clarity of refined perception within each state. These states cannot be missed. Experience, knowledge, perception and reality are completely different in each, even though Consiousness always remains the same One Consciousness. Cosmic Consciousness or "Self Realization" is awakening to being Pure Consciousness itself. It is the first stage of Enlightenment. It is a very profound shift in your sense of being and existing, the sense of who you are. The sense of Self shifts from being the person you think you are, to being the unbounded field of Awareness itself in which the person and all perceptions exist. You discover that there is no separate individual sense of self at all. The separate individual self was an illusion that happened as a result of conditioning and the false identification with the individual body/mind. Your real Self has always been unbounded, infinite and free all along.  It is not an altered state of Consciousness. It is Being Consciousness Itself -- what you really have always been. It is not a temporary experience; it is a natural, permanent state of being. The innermost self awakens to the unboundedness of its Self and finds itself to be the silent source of everything everywhere. Even though this feels like the final step and there is nowhere else to go, it is actually only the first step in the unfoldment of Consciousness to itself.  Refined Perception in Cosmic Consciousness or "God Realization" is Consciousness' refined perception of its nature as the process of experiencing. It is the perception of the flow of divine intelligence responsible for all experience. The underlying mechanics of the process of creation is revealed. It is the experience of the flow of intelligence responsible for all thinking, feeling, perceiving, experiencing, and all form and phenomena everywhere in your entire field of perception. The cosmic dimension of the individual mind/body is revealed. It is a continually deepening process of refinement and unfoldment taking place perpetually within Consciousness, though experienced differently in each state. The shift to unity Consciousness and beyond can happen prior to the full unfoldment of the depth of experience of refined perception. Unity Consciousness or "Oneness" happens when the Self, the subject and unbounded underlying essence of all things, awakens to itself as being the objects and phenomena of experience on the surface of life. It is a transition from being the unbounded field in which everything thing is happening , to being everything everywhere in the range of perception and experience. "Consciousness is everything everywhere, and I am that Consciousness". The unbounded subject has remembered itself to also be all objects of perception. They are One. The unboundedness of the Self has entered into the mind, body, and environment. All objects in the surroundings, while remaining the same from the perspective of the senses, are experienced as my Self. The world is no longer an object in Consciousness. It is Consciousness itself. It is my Self. It is the oneness of experiencer, process of experiencing and objects of experience. All of the apparent boundaries in the world are found to be my own Consciousness in appearance. From this perspective, the world is experienced to be even more real, because it is constructed out of the material of Consciousness itself, out of my own unbounded Self. The environment is now seen as pure unmodified Consciousness in the guise of the objective modifications of body, world and universe. It is not that the world and universe are seen to be an illusion. The illusion is that the world and universe is an objcetive physical reality. It has always been Consciousness itself, my own Self, pure subjectivity. There is no longer any distinction between inner or outer. The outer is the inner, the inner is the outer. Everything everywhere is my Self. "I" am all that there is. Refined Perception Within Unity Consciousness or "Unity in God Consciousness" is a further refinement of perception from the perspective of being everything. Consciousness awakens, with further clarity, to the underlying mechanics of creation and experience. It awakens to the subtle mechanics of its own innate intelligence that is responsible for creating the appearance of all life everywhere. It is the same shift in perception mentioned above, to experiencing the refined cosmic dimension of the feelings, intellect, mind, body, personality, senses, and all objects of experience; but it is experienced from an entirely different perspective now, one of wholeness, of being all that is. It is experiencing the flow of finer flavours and layers of intelligence within the wholeness of Self. It is Consciousness awakening to its internal dynamics as the perpetual flow of itself experiencing itself. It is the experience of the ultimate reality of the depth of the Self, the totality of Consciousness, and it is all Divine.  Beyond Consciousness or "Brahman Consciousness" is a perspective prior to Consciousness, prior to Intelligence and prior to existence itself. It is neither Self nor non-Self, neither Existence nor non-Existence, neither Being nor non-Being, neither Consciousness nor non-Consciousness. It is the clearest experience of Reality. Words like universe, multi-verse, Absolute, Totality, Self, God, Being, Presence, Pure Consciousness cannot touch it. It is beyond description. It is pure Nothingness. From this perspective; the body/mind, the world and the universe are not just an illusion, they have never even come into existence. The ultimate reality of something made from nothing, is nothing, not something. The word "nothing" does not do justice to the supreme peace, perfect equanimity, unlimited freedom and total knowledge that It is. It is truly indescribable. It is exclusively self-evident to itself alone.  Refined Perception Beyond Consciousness or "Refined Brahman Consciousness" is a completely different perspective of the same refinement of perception that is perpetually happening in Consciousness. But, because it is prior to Consciousness itself, there is no perceiver, no perceiving and no perceptio in the same sense. It is perpetually swelling in all the same divine flavours and qualities of wholeness and love as experienced previously, only in a finer more exquisite delicacy and fullness, prior to differentiation or distinction. It is the subtle intentention within nothingness to know itself. It is Pure Divine Power. From this perspective, the effect--Consciousness itself, and the creative intelligence inherent in Consciousness which is responsible for the appearance of creation, is also uncaused; and as such, so too is all creation. It is beyond all understanding. Supreme Reality Another shift to an even deeper perspective occurs in this state when that Nothingness recognizes that divine power as its own pure Supreme Divinity that has been cloaked in the appearance of creation. That supreme divinity is the ultimate cause of all causes. It creates and appears as the sense of Being, Consciousness or Self; all divine creative intelligence, and all creation. It is pure divine radience. Refinement of perception of the universal body/mind continues in this state.

Daweis answer is very good!! there are very different forms of neidan. there is sitting type (sitting in meditation/silence or "doing" in sitting) there is moving type... to me there is a spectrum from purly alchemical to mixed with spiritual. In purly alchemical the focus is on the body and the xing as soul. there is no identity switch to the emptiness itself(the infinite awareness as source of everything)..no transcendence,...... though the emptiness is used. They produce a new energy body that is immortal and in that process the physical body also gets immortal. These are mostly moving types of neidan or when sitting, they will do also armmovings or internal movings......they have the most alchemical effect in that they produce the extremly longlived people (several hundreds of years is not uncommon in those circles). These schools are only left a few and they still are very secretive and will transmit their teaching not in written form nor have their mehtods ever been written down...just like with external alchemy. the other schools include more stillness meditation and also the transcendence of the human experience into "becoming the unbounded emptiness"...these are most of the todays forms of neidan. they still have rejuvaneting effects but not as the purly alchemical and their goal is not just to produce the new energy body but also to shift our indentity to the emptiness like all other spiritual systems. All these schools differ with how much they incorporate from the alchemical side and the spiritual side. the dan (the elixier) that is being produced is different in its ingredients depending how strong the alchemical principle is used in that school. For some "elixier" is the name for our true self and nothing more, for others it is some gathered chi and for still others pre-heaven forms of energy are used. hope that helps.

Then you would have to carefully read the book and very slowly follow its advice. There are neidan schools in russia that teach neidan through skype (yuxian pai).....they are very secretive but have a full neidan system. they are not much liked here as they are ...lets say very direct with their view on neidan. www.daode.ru this is anther neidan school: http://www.qianfeng.nl/ best

Hi! "White moon" is about neidan and "comprehensive guide" is about neigong...which are 2 different things for damo and he teaches accordingly. "comprehensive" comes first and after several years "white moon" can be started.....but these are really deep things...better to go to at least some Seminars with damo or one of his teachers. best

Sure....some....short very reduced need for food, water, sleep and oxygen.

Ohh he is not my teacher anymore........was not my way.......but wanted to support what freeform said (it is true). He is not enlightened......he has the full elixier which means the replenished yuan jing and yuan chi merged with yuan shen....this is the merging of xing and ming and that makes one earth immortal......and the phyiscal canges are very obvious at that stage. And i will not show his profile. best

Totally agree with all what you said! (also in previous posts on this topic) I have met a lineage holder of an longmen lineage. He teaches when asked and is on facebook but he does not show his mastery....only when the would be students can sense it and ask him does he reveal himself. He is currently earth immortal stage which seems unbelievable when one is not within those cirles.....and he lives in a city but trained in china in seclusion under his teachers guidance. So i know that you are right...these circles exists! (and they have "unbelievable" results) All the full alchemy knowledge is only passed on oraly and these texts are not worth anything without direct experierence and a teachers guidance. One thing that can be said is that the alchemical process is not as complicated as the old texts make it seem. all the best on your way! M

Totally aggree with your statement what alchemy is.......i would say that external alchemy and internal alchemy are basically the same just one with the body/mind and the other with substances outside of the body. Some neidan schools still have the methods for waidan also....but told me that it only leads to the "human immortal" level. best

Puhhh, will try my best.....i just read it one time and the book has over 500 pages. The most important thing would be that it is not a specific set of movements but principles that need to be followed in order to come to that stage. It can be incorporated into any qi gong system. But it needs hard work. It is actually a state one reaches after a long process. It starts with the sinew changing classic......to do qi gong in a way that the tendons etc. are engaged and also the huang (somehow similiar to the fascia within our body). One lets the chi not just flow within the channels but also in the physical body and in it on ever deeper levels until it reaches the bone marrow and the marrow of the brain (skin depth, sinew depth, channel depth, viscera depth, marrow depth). The body becomes conditioned into a qi gong body (every body part needs to be in the right alignment to move further). The chi triggers an effect and the marrow produces new jing. to lead qi into the the marrow of the bones....to consolidate the jing to a higher level.....to purify the jing......to lead the jing to the brain.....to generate more jing. hope that helps! best

Great Text! I think it is important to point out that there are other lineages that also state simiiar things. In fact i was in contact with a teacher of a not public longmen pai lineage and he stated the same things. but it is important to note that wuliu etc talk about the pre-heaven jing and chi (yuan jing and chi) and not the post-heaven energies. there are some sources that claim that buddhism also had jing replenishment and that boddhidarma taught it in what is now called "the bone marrow washing" principles. Damo Mitchell talks about that in his latest book. Rather than being certain movements these are principles and when used and developed they replenish jing. Despite that there seem to be several schools in china which claim that they are wuliu pai and their methods seem to differ considerably from one another. Some being mostly sitting type, some mixed (sitting and movements) and others being mostly movements. And so in some there is great concern with jing leakage and in others it is not so important as the refilling mechanism is so powerful....that being said there are times when sex is forbidden. i found that article quite interesting: http://qianfengdaoismuk.weebly.com/wu-liu-daoism-in-modern-china.html All the best

http://qianfengdaoismuk.weebly.com/wu-liu-daoism-in-modern-china.html