BrightMoon

Transformation of anything is always an active process until it reaches its conclusion. You can't make it transform. It'll transform itself if you just perform the techniques.

If you're referring to the chi that's gathered in internal energy practices like neidan and kriya yoga, it seems to come from the sex drive, food and beverages, and being out in nature, for the most part. At least that's my own personal experience. Because when I practice, my sex drive significantly diminishes, I begin to crave fresh, plant-based foods, I begin to naturally abstain from alcohol, and I have an increased desire to be out in remote natural settings. I think everyone is different, but certainly some of these are commonalities, as I've read about them many times from other people.

I'm not really sure how to answer either of your questions, sorry.

I think he's referring to the early aspects of neidan work where you transmute jing into chi and into shen, though they are actually the same substance, just in different states. In kriya yoga, you move the energy up and down the spine (or around, depending on which tradition you hail from) and this refines the sexual essence into vital essence and vital essence into a spiritually potent energy that stills the mind's activity and the body's breath. This is experienced initially as a lack of interest in sexual activity, followed in time by experiencing the actual vital energy that lies behind the moving of intention and awareness up and down/around the spinal column, followed but a stillness of thought and a shallowness of breathing wherein you then practice kriya paravastha (sitting in stillness) or mental kriya pranayama, which is nearly identical to Mantak Chia's version of the MCO. Really, the processes are identical in both neidan and kriya yoga, it's just that the techniques are a bit different, though strikingly similar. I know little of this newly public Mukherjee lineage, other than that his techniques are not the same as the rest of the kriya yoga lineages, and therefore may not actually perform similarly to the original lineages, and perhaps why there isn't an understanding of the "transmutation process." I still can't make heads or tales of the murky instructions Mukherjee provided Ennio to post on his website about his technique.

I don't believe this technique will be necessary for me. I believe it's used to help beginners overcome the primary hindrances in their meditation sessions caused by a lack of vitality and its corresponding 'dis-eases' of the mind, which manifest as the 5 hindrances during meditation. I practice a preliminary technique which is a version of the MCO that I modified from my 11 years of experience with different systems of kriya yoga, when I realized that the genius in kriya's results are that it allows almost complete beginners to overcome the classical 5 hindrances and reach "access concentration" with relative ease and little effort. And this probably explains some of the experiences I have that someone here attributed to having 'superior virtues' of youth (I'm in my 30's. So, not quite a spring chicken anymore.) I now see that the classical, dynastic lineages of kriya yoga (prior to Paramahansa Yogananda, et. al.) are very similar, and in some cases identical, to Daoist neidan practices. Daoist neidan theory also clears up the mystery surrounding certain kriya yoga techniques in its system that made little to no sense, because of the lack of information about their purposes, as well as a lack of instructional technique about them, like "navi kriya" or naval kriya where the mind is concentrated at the navel while the belly is pushed inwards repeatedly; kechari mudra, or sticking our tongue to the upper palette; and "kriya paravastha" or remaining stationary in the thoughtless after-effect state of "circulating the energy around the spine" (which itself seems like it might be a misunderstanding of the original instructions). It probably also explains why the famed head of the kriya lineage, "Babaji", is described as a shorter man with jet black and bone straight hair with ageless features more reminiscent of someone from China or Tibet than India, and who occasionally takes on a human form like a Daoist immortal, rather than Indian saints who are more often said to remain fully embodied in remote locations for hundreds of years. For the time being, I've decided to stick with my modified daoist practices that I've recently adjusted, which seem to be very effective to me: 1) 5-10 min yoga postures or a basic qigong set; 2) 5-10 min MCO orbits done with inhale from navel down, back, up spine, over head to eyebrow point, exhale down to navel; 3) 20-30 min zuowang, sitting with eyes closed and letting go of whatever the mind tries to take up as an object; 4) 10 min of rest lying down. Feel free to chime in. I'm sure this is a lot of stuff to pick apart. I just figured I'd provide closure to my meditational existential crisis that prompted the original post.

I finished the first chapter of Foundations of Internal Alchemy entitled "Laying the Foundation" and so far, with just a few exceptions that I can see, the material is in agreement with Damo Mitchell's instructions. Certain variations being: 1) The LDT is explained as being behind the navel, not below it in the lower abdomen; 2) The process wherein the energy overflows into the do/ren meridian system is supposed to occur spontaneously on its own, rather than being directed; 3) And no mechanical muscular assistance is considered for helping to build energy and "pressure" in the LDT as it is in Damo's instructions. Perhaps this is correct in theory, but my guess is that these particulars are just semantics and that the goal is achieved in either way.

Thank you, that was very helpful in clarifying this unusual process! I downloaded Foundations last night and will begin reading it today as well. It's true that I haven't yet reached the stage where thinking and examining during meditation has subsided yet, though I know what it looks like, as I've been there a number of times before using various other systems of meditation. In terms of 'heat scorching' during meditation, I've no doubt felt fried during energy practices from other systems, but this was the first time of a literal 'heat scorching' experience, and I think your post has helped me to understand these issues more thoroughly. Thanks again!

Thanks. I've read Taoist yoga a few times before, but not while practicing more specifically doaist-ish techniques as I am now. I'm going to go and review it again, as well as look into those other works. I'm enjoying the translation of The Secret of the Golden Flower you posted above. It's much more useful and understandable than the Cleary version I read almost a decade ago. I also enjoyed your post on nei dan practitioners, even if it was a rather scathing look in the mirror.

This doesn't sound any different from other systems of meditation. Then what is the purpose of all of this generating hot, bubbling chi and leading up and down the do and ren, and all of the other things described in this book? In this light, it seems rather silly, as there are far easier methods to cultivate energy and commingle the essential qualities of concentration and mindfulness necessary to enter the immaterial jhanas/samadhi/dao. If that is really all this is doing, then these instructions seem like a fool's venture, chasing after different experiences rather than simply cultivating and moving through the various jhanas (as per my prior experience).

Could you clarify and extrapolate on "the external elixir in the orbit" and its methods vs. the internal elixir? I understand the internal elixir as chi refining itself in orbit from course to fine and from fine into stillness, however I'm unsure of what an external elixir would be. But my understanding is rudimentary and limited to prior experience in other systems other than daoism.

Taoist Text, do you have resources you can recommend regarding Daoist meditation systems/nei dan that you highly prize, which are straight forward and instructional?

Yes, questions regarding this technique are in reference to Damo Mitchell's White Moon on a Mountain Peak. I've read the book a few times now, and have re-read passages regarding this technique many times, but he does not answer these questions, which is why I've chosen to ask this forum. Perhaps I've missed some important information in the book, though. All that I can gather is that this is a pre-requisite for practicing zuowang, but I can't seem to find concrete answers as to why, other than "watching" the process of energy circulating is, itself, the practice of zuowang as Damo describes it. Yet everything else I've read regarding zuowang has little to do with watching the energy circulate, specifically, but rather watching and listening mindfully to all internal experiences. Damo doesn't mention any specific benefits to this practice besides accumulated vitality that produces a noticeably healthy glow to the face. If the benefits extend beyond pretty faces, they aren't mentioned as far as I can tell. I think why I'm asking if this technique is necessary is because I want to know if it can be reasonably bypassed. The few times I've tried it, the heat caused me to sweat and made my brain "hot". And with a hot head, I found it difficult to control my general human passions, including a stubborn old penchant for engaging people on the internet in arguments. I've come to appreciate Mantak Chia's techniques, because it someone cools and controls the passions and produces a refreshing and creamy texture to the fabric of daily experiences. But I haven't yet found any indication that it leads to more beyond that -- perhaps those are still forthcoming, or perhaps not. The only other source that describes Damo's technique is YMAA, Yang, Jwing Ming (http://ymaa.com/articles/2014/1/nei-dan-sitting-meditation), and I read through a couple of his books that are supposed to go into detail regarding this, yet I found the material poorly composed and lacking in instruction or references to personal experience. Thank you for all of your responses. I've appreciated them and will investigate them more fully.

Hey everyone, I'm curious for those who have personal experience or knowledge about the neidan firing process - focusing on the lower dantian while contracting the lower abdominal muscles and the perineum during inhale to build chi in this dantian, etc. I'm not sure if it has an actual name or not. I can find very little on this practice on the internet. Specifically, I'm curious what the benefits and purpose are both to this practice, and the effects in general in daily life, and whether the practice is really necessary for the rest of the neidan process. Any idea? My current twice daily practice is Mantak Chia's version of the microcosmic orbit (focusing on the accupuncture points along the ren and do, one by one). That's usually it, because the couple of times I've added Zuowang at the end of it, I've had very intense experiences, so I'm somewhat loath to include it as a regular feature. (The first time, I saw what appeared to be a white moon without craters in the darkness, except that it was as bright as the sun. And the second time, I felt as if my whole body was rising, and then I had very strong experiences of spacial/bodily distortion, and then it felt as if my whole body was sinking.) Any information on this would be cool. I learned about the technique from Damo Mitchell's latest neidan book.

lol thanks guys!

Long time lurker, first time poster. Here by way of yoga meditation > energy cultivation via kriya > taoism nei dan.