Taomeow

I'll add another question to your question -- how does the ocean find its way into a single drop of water? The classic question for contemplating wuji is, How does a tree contract back into a seed?

Crown chakra? Xuan Kong (space-time) FS, TCM, a bunch of stuff... I Ching, of course... Each hexagram, among other things, is linked to a specific "moment" of the Five Phases, noticing that helps understand the divination, the dynamics of a hexagram's energy becomes much clearer. All these things, the fundamentals of taoism, are a long haul study, I don't think I know much, but I try to grasp as much as I can everywhere, it's fascinating to me... Taiji Classics have short but sweet elucidations on these energies in poetic "songs" that are also helpful (especially when combined with doing taiji )... It's all over the place in Laozi too, mostly indirectly, more directly in FS or TCM or astrology... it's meat and bones of taoism, not the robes and hats it might wear... it wears many, but the flesh and bones is this... a study of the energies of the world and their application to human purposes and concerns. My humble, of course...

Well, one can analyze the interactions further by several methods, and the number of cycles that become visible will grow exponentially. E.g., take any one phase and view its totality of relationships. Say, Water. Water is Mother to Wood (1), Child to Metal (2), Grandmother to Fire (3) and Grandchild to Earth (4), but it is also Great-grandchild to Fire (4), and Great-grandmother to Earth (5). So we have (2) and (4), (3) and (5) that coincide in space and interfere in time! -- and in 3D space at that, not on a 2D plane! -- so to understand the phase that is both generating and is generated by another, we would need to watch the waveform pattern of interferences in 4D (3D space plus time), not a flat diagram. In other words, like all things taoist, it will ultimately boil down to a real-life phenomenon, not an abstract symbol. (The diagram is symbolic of course, nothing this linear is even remotely happening in real life.) Then... times 5 (for 5 phases) it becomes quite complex. Then times 2 (for yin-yang dynamics) and then times 8 (for waveform interlocking/interference from the 8 directions of the bagua) and then you get your resonance, ganying, that affects the totality of Change. Once you're there, if you still want to do it mathematically, you have already dropped all attempts to analyze it in any algebraic or geometric fashion and moved on into the chaos/fractals/power laws territory. In other words, you have began to study classical feng shui, classical Chinese astrology, and TCM in order to grasp the whole picture.

The one you cite is the fourth. They are best understood in terms of family relationships. In the creative/nourishing cycle, each of the five phases generates each successive one, and whatever phase generates the next one is its parent phase. So Water generates/is the parent (usually translated as "mother") of Wood, Wood is the parent of Fire, and so on. Each "child" phase gets its nourishment, support, growth from the parent phase. In the diminishing/using-up/depleting cycle, which runs in the opposite direction, the child phase "takes" from the mother phase, thereby using it, diminishing it. Thus Metal is the child of Earth that takes from her rather than gives to her, Earth is the child of Fire that takes from her rather than gives to her, and so on. Then there's the control cycle, which is understood as the grandparent-grandchild relationship. The grandparent phase controls the grandchild phase without directly "taking from" or "giving to." Another way to think of it is as a teacher-student relationship where the somewhat stern teacher keeps the student in line but in a balanced cycle, for his/her own benefit. In an unbalanced cycle, control can become tyrannical. And finally, the "demeaning" cycle ("arresting" is probably a better term, or even "hijacking") -- that's the opposite of the control cycle, the reaction of the grandchild to being controlled by the grandparent, or of a student to being disciplined by a teacher. Like all others, it is about the direction in which the energy of the relationship is flowing -- in this case, it is being "pulled" from the grandparent to the grandchild, not so much depleting as "arresting," "pointing toward oneself" the grandparent's energy. It can be "demeaning" if the grandchild is "too big" for the "grandparent," i.e. in an unbalanced cycle. In a balanced one, the grandchild will pull as much control toward herself as is needed and is easy/natural for the grandparent to give, no more and no less.

"We become what we admire." I hope.

Agree some, disagree some... maybe we're talking apples and oranges? From my taoist explorations I gleaned that it's not about an apple becoming a banana at all... it's about an apple becoming a real apple... about a waxed fruit that tastes almost like a wax one, GM, pesticided, nutritionally depleted, irradiated, pretty on the surface but with flavor flattened and true juiciness gone (and believe me, I know what a real apple tastes, smells and "apples" like, and you can't buy that today at any HFS) becoming a real apple again. I don't think it's about becoming more than that or something different from that. It's common to focus on the first (yang) part of the Law -- "the way of tao is motion" -- and fail to notice the second (yin) part -- "and the pattern of this motion is return." So it might look like we're moving toward being more than we are, but in reality, a taoist cultivator is moving away from having become less than she is. "The way" is "away" and not "toward" -- this may be the reason tao is invariably described by the classics through stating what it "isn't," never what it "is." "If he doesn't laugh, it's not the tao." Not "if he laughs, it is tao." "If it can be spoken, it is not the way." Not "if it can't be spoken, it's the way." Tricky, sneaky... eh? ... That's why it is never asserted that we are "a wave of energy." Maybe we are... but for starters, we AREN'T fully human -- and that's taoism's first concern, far as I can tell... the first goal of cultivation, which may or may not be the last one, is to correct that.

Thank you, Ken. Please do PM if you're up to it, I'd like to know more.

Is this opinion based on your experience with both?

You are very welcome! -- thanks for listening!

Let me rephrase what I said earlier. Taoism is a method to bring the human microcosm into harmonious correspondence with the macrocosm. This method uses its proprietary tools -- Hetu, Luoshu and all their subsequent derivatives, beginning with the Five Classics, of which the first and most venerated one is the I Ching, and all philosophical, religious, scientific, artistic, physical and metaphysical applications thereof developed in the course of taoism's evolution. Another way to put it is, taoism is a system of cultivation -- much like agriculture is a system of cultivation, in the first case of the human beings and human affairs, in the second, of one of their derivatives. This system of cultivation employs as many tools as it needs for any given cultivation task. Some of these tools are religious, others philosophical, but none are reducible to a religion or a philosophy, anymore than agriculture is reducible to stickers slapped onto apples and tomatoes before presenting them to customers at the supermarket. In other words, to allow/facilitate/create conditions/remove obstacles, etc., for an apple to grow healthy and nutritious is taoism; to slap a sticker on that apple before selling it to the customers is religion or philosophy of taoism. The sticker can name the apple -- "Apple, Granny Smith," and inform the customer who, when, where has cultivated it so it can be sold at the supermarket under a particular price tag. However, a customer who happens to be following the taoist path would never equate reading the sticker and learning all that info to getting to know the apple itself. She may or may not read the label -- she's there for the apple, and she will eventually remove the sticker, with or without having read it, and eat the apple. This is how she will "embody the tao of the apple." If she only reads the sticker she will embody the tao of the sticker. Religious, philosophical, or commercial -- doesn't matter much, it's still the tao of the sticker. The tao of the apple is in the totality of the cosmic and human process that brings its existence and nonexistence -- Conception, Growth, Fruition, Consummation. This is the main process taoism is concerned with. Labeling, Pricing, Advertising, Selling may come into the picture as a side effect, but taoism is concerned with the main process, not the side effects. It's useful to keep in mind though that 99% of the customers at the supermarket will learn about Labeling, Pricing, Advertising, Selling of the apple from this particular source, and about nothing else. They are the ones who will be arguing about the true meaning of this sticker vs. that sticker. A taoist, however, will be concerned with whether pesticides were used, whether it signifies anything that no worm in its right mind can live in one of these apples, whether the juiciness and flavor of the apple delight the senses or have been sacrificed to the imperatives of "shelf life," whether the apple orchard that used to belong to a family now belongs to Monsanto and the apple is genetically modified and will cause carcinogenic mutations, and so on. Moreover, the taoist doesn't need the sticker on the apple to know it's an apple so as to be able to tell it from a banana. If it is mislabeled and says, in clear print, "banana," she will ignore what the label says because she knows what an apple is, and no sticker will convince her it's a banana.

Sure -- look here, e.g.: http://books.google.com/books?id=t8h8myrpx...0&ct=result

Taoism is a process of manifestation of Hetu and Luoshu into human affairs.

Good for you! Many variables there I guess... One could be, e.g., the level (or even just the sheer amount of experience, of "systemic habit") achieved at some practice before starting some other practice. I used to have something so all-encompassing going that whatever else I tried would just redirect me to my main practice, by hook or by crook. Nothing else would "take." But after a few years, I could do something else without interferences -- of if there were interferences, they were manageable and minor and I could stop "that old thing" and proceed with "this new one." By the way, my taiji improved since kunlun -- it gained some energy and daring that weren't there before. I'd say it got more assertive and more spontaneous. Like in that celebrated Matrix line where Morpheus is teaching Neo how to do kung fu, "Stop trying to hit me and hit me!" I seem to be reaping some unexpected taiji benefits from the general "stop trying" theme of kunlun.

Alas, a strike of idiocy on my part prevented me from finding out. Instead of asking that and more, I started telling Max stuff about what little I know of the Dragon Gate school. So I pretty much turned what could have been a lesson for me into small talk. Don't ask... I'm still kicking myself. And then someone else got hold of Max and I didn't have a chance to get back to that line of inquiry. The seminar was high voltage... I did make a strange connection though. The ET stuff, something that is the most questionable part of the whole package for many... OK, someone told me that (I'm in hearsay territory here, so don't take my word for it, I don't know one way or the other, I'm just saying what I was told by someone supposedly in the know) the Falun Dafa creator is a student of Wang Liping's. Now he's someone who is famous for asserting there's scores of ETs among us. So if it's really the case, we now have two independent sources pretty much describing them in identical terms. So I can't begin to fathom what a Dragon Gate guy in the know could have been discussing with Max, but my imagination runs wild...

Last weekend when Max had seminars in LA a student of Wang Liping's showed up for Level 1, and apparently both he and Max were delighted. Actually, not just a student, a Dragon Gate taoist. I guess it depends on the individual, like most other things. Viktor Siao, e.g., told me that he couldn't imagine mixing two, let alone more, advanced practices, and had doubts about any benefits of doing that for "most" people who do, but didn't exclude the possibility for "some" to do it beneficially either.

I know the theory, but it presupposes everybody is the same... My mother grew up in a village hundreds of miles away from the nearest sources of pollution, with water from a natural spring, with food grown in the family plot of land, with no chance to "overeat" -- every potato counted -- but with no danger of malnutrition either. She milked her goat before school for her morning breakfast. (Of course they also grew their own tobacco and she was introduced to smoking when she was 8, but that's another story.) Then, when she was an adult, a doctor prescribed a course of antibiotics for "prevention" (someone at her work place got dysentery and they "treated" everybody). She could never eat raw foods ever again. She knew that it was because of all her beneficial intestinal flora having been destroyed, and went to considerable lengths to reintroduce it. It never happened -- something that the antibiotic did to the intestinal lining made it impossible for any beneficial critters to take residence there again. After years of much struggle and medical attention and diets and cleanses and what not, she just had to come to terms with the fact that she can't digest anything raw anymore, period. She loves raw fruits and vegetables and misses them always, and occasionally experiments -- she'll take a tiny bit of this or that... and a month of stomachaches and other problems is guaranteed. Nothing to do with a "cleansing reaction." Where I come from they used to have (and train MDs in) some 30 different diets for different health problems, and one of them was a raw food diet for a "cleanse." Anyway... this is the argument I've been avoiding for so long, the nutritional one, might as well keep up the good work and shut up. I've been nutritionally trained elsewhere and what passes for healthy nutrition here-now is going to fail to impress me every time... in any event, I am not going to convince a true believer and besides, I don't really want to argue with you, I like you!

5eltao, Well, yes, I didn't mean diet wasn't important... I'm just a bit jaded (through no fault of yours) walking through all those competing "one diet fits all" and "one nutritional idea (e.g., PH) fits all" playgrounds (all of them different, mind you -- vegan playgrounds, paleo/hunter-gatherer playgrounds, Atkins, macrobiotic, fruitarian, raw foodist, Okinawan, the Zone, ketogenic, alkalizing, Mediterranean, sattvic... oh brother... I know them all, dozens upon dozens of them, and each and every one has zealots who are sure that theirs is THE one! It's like religions, exactly like religions... ) Take raw food... my mother is put out of commission for a month if she eats anything raw, and has been like that for most of her life. Long as she doesn't, she's fine. A more unusual situation than your familial clash with alcohol, but no different in any way. (In TCM, few food cures are raw, but in taoist ritual, raw foods are used preferentially, since they are considered the kind of yin/cold foods suitable for the ghosts.) About two ways to practice tao... I dunno, I don't think there's a fundamental difference between those who practice "above" and those who practice "below," "inside" or "outside." As above, so below, as inside, so outside... you can go either way, neither way is wrong if you know what you're doing. I like to combine both... I don't have a clue what "one reality" as opposed to "many" means though. I don't see the opposition. Many are one and one is many, and many aren't in any way inferior to one, nor superior... "to and fro goes the Way." Gossamer, Tao Te Ching is not "all" of taoism. The concept of "karma" is something I have to phase in in my practice, which is a taoist practice. I can't possibly worry about what "philosophical" taoists think about it, because I'm not one of them. I'm a pragmatist. If you undertake studying the I Ching, you will know what karma means in taoism -- no, the term they use is not this one, moreover, it's not any term at all, it's a pattern... If you dedicate yourself to studying the pattern, maybe you will see what I see -- and it won't turn you into a Buddhist or Hindu, anymore than it did me...

5elements, thanks for your take. (Been enjoying your earlier posts, by the way.) I am quite familiar with this view and more than familiar with practical applications. And know from extensive experience that, while nothing about your statements is "not true," nothing is "this simple" either, alas. To illustrate what I mean: most Native Americans were overwhelmingly environmentally clean and nontoxic for thousands of years before the continent was "discovered" by the white man -- and more of them proceeded to die of viral diseases brought by the white man than from direct assault. How come?.. We do indeed have viruses that live inside and get active when our immunity is weakened. This doesn't mean none exist outside and invade us on occasion. In TCM, they fall under the category of "pernicious influences." "Pernicious influences" can be "internal" or "external." In TCM, they acknowledge the primary importance of internal defenses (especially "protective qi" of which our immune system is part, but which can't be reduced to the "immune system" -- "protective qi" is comprised of a lot more, immunity and social status and psychological factors and diet and spiritual goals or their absence, and so on.) They also acknowledge the existence of "external pernicious influences" of such power and magnitude that no internal defenses are sufficient to counteract them, at least in a mere mortal. An atom bomb is an example. Some esoteric authorities assert it can disrupt even the immortal spirit, not just the mortal body. Now take a "weaponized" virus, an important factor, according to some alternative historians, in what's going on with people's health today. Do we breed them inside our bodies or... ?.. Now take the "environmental" theory. Western medicine didn't ignore it; what is done to the environment is part of the business, because keeping everybody polluted is very lucrative. Pasteur or not, they know it very well. Pollution has global governmental blessings not because all our planet's governments are ignorant. Nah. Because they are very well-informed. Now take Time. If we subscribe to the taoist view of time being nonlinear, cyclical, loopy, turnable and returnable, it becomes a matter of "when" disease-causing viruses were introduced. Are they weapons to begin with? even the ones we think of as "natural?" In taoist sorcery, one can punish ancestral spirits, no less, of people long dead -- and all their offspring seven generations into the future. What happened to all the shamans of the dead nations? Did they just turn belly up and give up? I seriously doubt it... So a health problem, whether environmental or pathogenic or both, is rather likely to be neither. Is rather likely to be karmic. And a karmic disease is not going to respond to any diets. Unless suffering through the illness and the diet is exactly the intervention that is needed to disperse some of it. And that's why some will benefit, but not all, this I have seen with my own eyes... Detox, juices, energy healers, whatever -- it has to have been meant to be or else it doesn't help. Nothing helps, or everything helps, depending on the individual. I've read of a guy who cured himself of terminal lung cancer with a bottle of scotch consumed daily. The case was reported at an oncologists' conference and one of the MDs, desperate to understand how it could possibly happen, asked, "does anybody know WHICH BRAND of scotch he was drinking?.." That's western thinking for you. There's got to have been a "simple answer," an "active ingredient,' something, anything... ...but the truth is, the mystery is always one step ahead of the "de-mystifiers."

Gossamer, agreed on magic being a skill (art, craft, science, general work with "energies of the world" by methods not in common everyday circulation) that requires much practice -- more than most other skills. Or rather, one that utilizes all other skills in a synthesis of a particular type, known as "the whole is not equal to the constituent parts," at a level beyond a simple sum of its constituent parts. One level beyond, or many levels beyond, depending on the skill of the practitioner. Now as for your computer nemesis guy -- you know him and I don't, so you are perhaps right that his "failure" is a result of sheer ineptitude, but this is not always the case with magic which didn't go to the extreme of killing the magician's enemy. Quite the opposite is true: a highly skilled and knowledgeable jun zi will never kill the enemy, because the price to pay (and there's always a price to pay) is seldom a bargain, and he or she will keep this in mind and try to follow the golden rule of sorcery -- punishment commensurate with crime. (It can be slightly, but not considerably, greater than the crime with no karmic complications, but if it is considerably greater, the price skyrockets.) However, a skilled sorcerer might cause the adversary to do something dumb -- a suicidal move in fact -- and kill without killing. If I were to destroy an enemy, I would never do it by harming him or her directly. Instead, I would ask the gods to reveal his true nature. Once it is revealed, chances are people who see him for what he is will do the rest of the good work. So I never ask the gods to destroy an enemy; all I ask it, expose him. No karma for me, no escape for him. Good stuff.

But I've digressed from the topic of self-protection. Question: does it help you not catch a cold if you don't believe in viruses? Did people never catch colds before viruses were "discovered?" Was the Black Plague (a viral disease) that wiped out 3/4 of Europe's population brought about by "fear of the virus?" How is a spiritual attack different from a viral one? If being unafraid and not thinking of "these things" is the remedy, why isn't it helping? How is a virus above spirit, stronger than "energy"? How is believing or not believing, fearing or not fearing a virus going to make no dent in one's contracting or not contracting a viral disease, yet believing or not believing, fearing or not fearing a malevolent energetic/spirit intervention is supposed to be what makes or breaks its power?..

That's correct. Here's some additional considerations: an alchemical healer must be, first and foremost, absolutely healthy herself -- in mind, body, spirit -- and in touch with the patient spiritually but not emotionally entangled in his illness. Which is why few will treat a family member (unless it's something minor) -- the very intensity of the emotional involvement will throw off and perhaps thwart the flow of healing qi; an alchemical healer whose heart is not impartial to the outcome can't heal. Ironic but true: the most accomplished alchemical healer can heal thirty strangers every day but fail with a loved one. This refers to more than just physical ailments. I know a student of a top level martial/qigong master, someone who's been practicing for over seventy years and is presently, in his advanced age, stronger than he'd ever been. His wife of fifty years divorced him recently, and all his qi power was powerless to heal his own family problems. (Which is why no master must be judged on the basis of personal troubles -- these are in a class of their own. Confucius was the most celebrated master of familial harmony in all of humanity's history -- yet his own wife left him too!) A shamanic healer can become a healer instantly, with no training whatsoever. Example: John of God, whom I met last year. When he was around 19 (I think), one day he fainted, then entered a trance, was "out" for 48 hours, and when he "came back" the villagers surprised and shocked him by telling him that while he was in a trance he healed a whole bunch of sick people. To this day, after forty+ years of world famous "career" as a healer, with thousands of "miracles" reported and documented, he asserts that he himself has never healed anyone, and in fact I did see him as two different people -- the ordinary man he is when he is just himself, and the conduit for spirits he becomes when he's doing his healing work via multiple spirit entities (not a peep about "life force" though, his beliefs are Catholic and so he refers to spirits, saints, and god... "life force" is not necessarily interested in our beliefs, which is funny if you think of it... If we shun the traditional designations of gods, spirits, demons, angels, etc., and think of it as just impersonal "life force" yet the part of it that does the job thinks of itself as the spirit of Ignatius Loyola -- one of those who named themselves to John of God and do his healing work for him -- who are we to argue with what it chooses to be at a given moment, to a given man or woman? -- it knows better what it is or isn't than our beliefs do...)

I'm told each of the three dantiens generates its own electromagnetic field or aura, and each of these in turn creates a specific frequency of "subtle" vibrational energy, to a total of nine "powers." These are: 1. Strength of mind and body -- chu; 2. Direction of energy -- shen; 3. Harmony with the universe -- tai; 4. Healing of self and others -- sha; 5. Premonition of danger -- kai; 6. Knowing the thoughts of others -- jen; 7. Mastery of time and space -- tung; 8. Control of forces of nature -- hua; 9. Enlightenment -- tao Power is what strings together all nine levels. Who's got the power? Which levels are your forte?

OK, as promised, I made further inquiries regarding the Denmark seminar controversy. Below I translate the part of the response I got that I was specifically asked to publish here -- Wang Liping's statement dictated over the phone to his student, Viktor Siao, on August 22, 2008: "October 15th through 25th, I will be conducting a seminar in Jinhua, Zhejiang. This seminar has been approved by the government of the Zhejiang province and the Managing Committee of National Religious Affairs of the region. Now every effort is being put into the preparation of this seminar. The question of whether we can invite foreign enthusiasts to attend this seminar is still being discussed by the authorities. If we receive such permission, we will make an announcement to this effect to people outside of China. After the seminar I'm leaving for the Putoshan mountains for a few days. Here are my questions to David: How many people does he intend to invite together with me, including my family and my assistants? Is he planning on paying for our round trip? When is he going to, and can he, arrange for, and pay for, the visas for all of us? Will he pay for the appropriate living accommodations and food for the whole team? How many participants is he planning on gathering to attend the seminar? What is the square footage and condition of the premises designated for the seminar? What kind of remuneration are we going to receive for our work, and how much are the participants of the seminar going to pay? None of the above, nor many other pertinent issues, have ever been agreed upon. How could he, or anyone else, make an announcement on the site without a personal agreement with me, with dates and times posted that are, for me, entirely unrealistic? This is why, in the original statement I made through Victor Siao, I insisted that such an announcement will have legitimacy only if it includes a simultaneous publication of my personal statement with my personal signature. Please be informed in advance that this is always to expect in this regard. The preparation of our Moscow seminar took two years, and every single point of the program was discussed with me personally in advance. This is the only way a serious seminar can be conducted. David called Viktor Siao after the latter made a statement on the forum on my behalf. Then he called an interpreter, and she called me. I asked her to relate to David the above questions; he never responded and I haven't heard from him since. However, I know that the announcement on the internet is still posted, and people are still being invited to participate. My question is -- how come?.. Wang Liping (dictated over the phone to Viktor Siao at 10 pm on August 22, written by Viktor in Russian and sent to the translator -- me -- the night of August 23) " (That's because of the time difference -- it's still August 22 here in CA)

The usual snip-and-procuratize game with other people's posts. I am really finding you a genuine equal opportunity deal. I mean, usually I know which of the behaviors I find disgusting in a rare unfortunate individual saddled with many all at once I dislike the most, but with you, it's really hard to decide. Since you're on a first name basis with "all eternity" though, I'd have just about enough time to pick and choose. If I were to bother that is.