Taomeow

Global aboriginal oral histories are perhaps original sources (although there's also this backflow of information -- back to earlier sources from the later ones -- I've encountered it, e.g., when discussing these matters with Amazonian shamans who had no trouble incorporating Virgin Mary, Mother of God, and interpreting her as an aspect of ayahuasca). But you are not posting them. You are posting someone else's spin incorporated into a bunch of new age myths. You can't say with certainty when hearing the number 7 that it's this and not that unless you know a wider context (e.g. see my exchange with Nungali about it). 7 stars and 2 hidden -- yes, maybe it's about the Pleiades, but maybe it's about the Big Dipper -- taoist sources also cite (and their ancient astronomical maps show) 9 stars of the Dipper, I mentioned that particular fact earlier in the thread, and the fascinating confirmation from modern astronomy. Or any other number -- we have a limited number of numbers and the same are bound to keep coming up in all kinds of contexts. Ask ten taoists what "The Three Treasures" stand for and you will get ten different answers. Something being this or that number, by itself, proves nothing whatsoever without the proper context. Context is everything. Which brings me to the next item on the menu, petroglyphs. They are not contexts, they are symbols pointing toward... what exactly? A matter of interpretation, isn't it? How do you maximize your accuracy in interpreting symbols that are nowhere near self-explanatory? That's something I'm also used to, having, e.g., utilized only the Ritsema-Sabbadini version of the I Ching for the past ten years or so, which offers all possible meanings for each of its symbols known to have ever been used -- and there's not one character or symbol that has just one meaning, or just two or just three. It's usually a field of meanings (and even in its entirety still incomplete without the context), and you have to be able to see the bigger picture and the smaller one too simultaneously in order to interpret which meaning pertains in this or that particular situation. And it's never one hundred percent guaranteed that you got it right. It's probabilistic only. OK, time permitting, I'll try to elaborate. Later.

@gendao I wrote and published some sci-fi short stories back in the day, and have been working on a novel, like, forever, and before that I read tons, and I mean tons, in sheer weight, of sci-fi literature, including nearly all of the best of the genre (and only a tiny bit of its crap and only a bit of "fantasy," most of which I dislike, with some notable exceptions), and that's how I learned to construct and deconstruct plots that can accommodate the meaningful and believable functioning of an alien, future, past, or any other kind of imaginary world. So believe me when I say that the plot you posted is amateurish and not by very talented amateurs either, so once again I admonish you to abandon your sources and try to go to the original sources and see if you can envision a better plot, without so many gaps, circular-logic confirmation biases, loose ends, stretches, sleight-of-hand slipping-in of the authors' pet peeves, and so on.

P.S. And the cult of Bast is definitely something I could subscribe to.

You don't have to though -- not liking something doesn't mean I don't want to know anything about it. On the contrary, I believe avoiding a subject one dislikes creates blind spots filled with superstition and what-not as much as focusing on a subject of one's choice too narrowly does. "Visceral distaste" is not something I can explain by resorting to logic alone -- or back up by "information" -- but explaining one's ethical, aesthetic, humanistic vibe would be too big of a tangent. Something clashes there with who I am I guess -- as audibly as something about many things ancient Chinese resonates, makes sense, delights and so on even though, like all of them, Chinese civilization had its share of horrendous ugliness and mind-boggling cruelty, sometimes disproportionately large. So, like I said, I have no objections.

I can try to give you a quick recap. The Ariadne's thread of this thread is Taomeow's explorations of Sumer (but also Akkad, and moving on through all the city-states to Assyria, Babylon, and the rest of what the sixth grade schoolbooks call the Fertile Crescent.) The Sumerian inquiry is part of a larger inquiry into the origin, inherent nature, trademark features and ultimate purpose of things we call civilization and progress. It is also part of the inquiry into ponerology, or the study of evil -- its origin, inherent nature, trademark features and ultimate purposes, and the feasibility (or not) of overcoming its consolidated power. Nungali doesn't mind but would prefer to talk about ancient Australia and aboriginal cultures he knows well and professionally, as well as modern Australia and aboriginal cultures he also knows empirically. The OP doesn't object unless the Ariadne's thread is lost completely, and when it looks like it might be, she tries to pick it up and proceed, pulling it where she wants to go. Apech doesn't mind but would prefer to talk about ancient Egypt which he knows well -- probably as well as professional egyptologists or better. The OP doesn't mind. She has a visceral distaste for all things Egypt, but great respect for all things competence. There's a chance the latter might overcome the former in the case of Egypt as time passes and the view deepens. Gendao doesn't mind but prefers to talk about things Gendao. The OP doesn't mind small doses, but is on the lookout for walls of text and pictures and biases against particular creeds, races, nations or unproven bloodlines, any and all Malthusian propositions, and new age interpretations with no basis in anything other than the aforementioned, to which she objects quite decisively. A few more participants supply welcome observations, ideas and information, some from their own area of competence (e.g. Dwai with his Hindu expertise which revealed to me that even the term "Hindu" is part of ignorance -- I thought I was doing fine differentiating between "Indian" and "Hindu" which many people use interchangeably, and in my native tongue nearly always, but apparently I need to take a closer look). Occasionally this results in comparative cultural venues to explore, or intellectual, or emotional, or hunch-based moments of contemplation. The OP doesn't object and often welcomes the tangents provided they don't have the purpose of pulling the thread in a way that causes the whole sweater to unravel. She also appreciates the effort to keep the thread from unraveling and to keep spamming, derailing, trolling and flaming at bay. There was someone who tried particularly hard to unravel that sweater and is mercifully gone; also someone who seems undecided about whether to contribute to the thread or to entertain himself by insulting the contributors. The OP has an eye on him and keeps her fingers crossed. Benefit of the doubt and so on. Has it been helpful at all?

You may want to go back to six thousand years before the Annunaki though. I've been avoiding Göbekli Tepe in this thread because one doesn't want to jump to conclusions over six thousand year wide gaps, and I wasn't ready to jump back that far yet. But if you insist... I'll be happy to look at what you uproot if you make a trip across that gap and tell me and whoever else is interested what you find there and how exactly you've bridged that gap. But please keep in mind that new age terms like "starseed" mean nothing to me, Pleiadians having anything to do with anything via any other route than new age mythology would require a smithereen of proof, and if you want to accuse the Annunaki of everything, that's fine by me if you can tell me where they themselves came from and what evidence of their origin thence you've been able to uproot. I'd love to see their phylogenic tree if you can produce it. That ours is fracked up is pretty obvious to anyone who has ever looked at our developmental heterochrony weirdness in general and insane neoteny in particular, or at our Chromosome 2, or at our crazy per-generation mutation rate on a per-cell division basis, to name a few of the extraordinarily fishy red herrings, let alone their one-in-billions chance of being combined in one species. Yet I find it counterproductive to pretend the puzzle has all the pieces and fill in the blanks with beliefs, biases and new age cointelpro. And if you want a really scary story where the Annunaki red herrings are small fish not even large enough to be mentioned except in passing, wait for it, I'm saving the best for last. So... ready to undertake an archeological expedition into Göbekli Tepe? Might take a while. If not, please don't post "conclusions," you've reiterated your current views often enough, I know them. I'm interested in whether new information might make a dent though.

Got it on my Kindle. Thank you, Dwai. Look forward.

She-he is coming. A month from today.

There's also the new age version... wherein they are supposed to be the good aliens, higher vibration, stuff like that. And Helena Blavatsky's version: “These Pleiades are the most occult constellation that exists... They are very occult, because they are connected with all the Rishis, too; they have an interchange of thought with the Rishis.” (H. P. Blavatsky, “The Secret Doctrine Dialogues”) I don't mind -- they are definitely onto something, if only because they're part of my native Taurus, and the belt of Orion connecting to my very own Aldebaran, the Eye of the Bull, guides one's gaze exactly in their direction. Sumerians were star gazers -- they spent their evenings, and often nights, on the flat roofs of their houses, resting, socializing, eating and sleeping there. Or just lying on their back gazing at the night sky. There was no light pollution. The climate, with few nights when the sky was clouded, also contributed to astronomical observations.

Here comes the hero... garrad (Sumerian) -- hero, strong, powerful; an athletic man gar (Sumerian) - heroic; to be a hero er (Kazakh) - hero, a strong man; head of the family; large male animal; man, husband eru (Kazakh) -- to go behind him; to follow ər [er] (Azerbaijani) - man, husband, courageous man er (Uzbek) - man, husband; manly, courageous air (Arab) -- penis eroe [(Italian), ήρωας [iroas] (Greek), heros (Lаtin), Heros (German), hero (English) - hero; semigod; ἥρως (Greek) - chief, warlord, leader, warrior, fighter, glorious man, hero, strong athletic man ur (Hungarian) – master, sovereign, ruler yur (Komi) - head, top Herr (German), härra (Estonian) - master, lord, ruler; husband kuru (Ainu) - man, human (origin of the name of the Kuril islands) χar (Khanty), χār (Mansi), χora (Nenets), kora (Evenki), kuru (Nganasan), -- male animal; reindeer герой (geroy) (Russian) -- hero хер (kher) (Russian) -- penis (slang) Note that Khaty, Mansi, Nenets, Evenki, Nganasan and a few other languages of the indigenous ARCTIC peoples which have the same versions of the same Sumerian word for the same patriarchal idea are quite a way removed from Sumer both geographically and historically... and yet...

Not the Eight Immortals. These are not healers (with perhaps one exception, Li Tieguai), seven of them were recorded in Chinese history as mortals who ascended to immortality via taoist cultivation, their celestial correspondences are of the eight directions of the bagua, etc. -- doesn't look like the same bunch. There's quite a few correspondences between different ancient cultures and many of the Mesopotamian-Chinese counterparts are striking, and don't appear to be mere coincidences, but I don't see this as one of them. The eight plants/fruits that carry the curse of death with them may be the ones Sumerians started cultivating? -- wheat, barley, chickpeas, lentils, dates, onions, garlic, leeks. The last three are still frowned upon by Buddhists. The first four, by taoists. The fifth, by endocrinologists. And the healing deities may have been... I'll try to find out what Sumerians had to say about them, but what I know arises in response to the eight plants with the curse of death upon them is the endogenous opioid system -- which comprises four G protein-coupled receptors (mu, delta, kappa, and nociceptin) and four major peptide families (beta-endorphins, enkephalins, dynorphins, and nociceptin/orphanin.)

Either that. Or denounced him first and relied on his competition. "I denounce God and His life-bearing Cross, and surrender myself into the hands of the devils. May this man be adhered to by sorrow, by the name of Hick-ups. Hick-ups Sorrow, shake and torture (name of the recipient) till the end of his life. As this salt will go dry, so (name of the recipient) will go dry. Step away from me, devils, and step toward him and cling to him. Go, devilish force, away from me!" (Also my translation, from the book "777 Spells and Hexes" -- a collection of mostly Russian but also Ukrainian, Belorussian, German, Finnish, Assyrian and Babylonian magical formulas from assorted ancient documents or from the field work of folklorists collecting orally transmitted ones for some 150 years. Note the number of the spells in the book. They are Seven Seven Seven. )

It's Imina Bi -- The Sevenfold One https://books.google.com/books?id=WW5AAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA358&lpg=PA358&dq=imina+bi+o+Seven-fold+one,+are+ye!&source=bl&ots=RCskXv73Us&sig=ACfU3U0PI43YZPkX5doE96wtuvrmTpABkg&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjEoNboisrmAhXQv54KHShcC50Q6AEwAHoECAYQAQ#v=onepage&q=imina bi o Seven-fold one%2C are ye!&f=false

Kalbu -- "male dog" in Akkadian. (Kobel' in modern Russian.) This statuette is one of the items that were used to cast protective spells against unwanted intrusions. It was buried in the ground under the entrance door or by the gate. The inscription on its side says "I bite the enemy."

Sergei Prokofiev, cantata Seven, they are Seven

Taoists in the meantime didn't believe there's energies in existence that can't be controlled. In ancient China, they were looking at the Pleiades to explain the cycles of the four seasons. "When at sunset the Pleiades appear in the center of the sky, then the winter solstice has arrived. -- Shang Shu ("Book of Documents") Rì duǎn xīng mǎo, yǐ zhèng zhòng dōng. Every time there is a turning point in the cycles of nature, it is an important moment for inner cultivation. An old taoist saying: "A day of meditation at the winter solstice is equal to half a year of meditation." Dōng zhì liàn yī tiān, píng shí liàn bàn nián. Over and out and off to shuigong.

No, they are not, and the planetary associations came way later. They are Seven! The seven gods of the Pleiades, also interpreted by Sumerians as demons, though the word "demon" wasn't in circulation. Some powerful entities that can harm because that's their nature and their mission. And the translation I retranslated into English as "cast a spell against them" used the words небом закляни which can't mean "control their energies" -- besides, it's clear from the whole context that no one can possibly control these energies -- but, rather, "invoke heavenly authority for protection," "prevent harm by using the authority of heaven against them." Not "against them" in the sense "to harm them," which is impossible, but the way you use a shield against a weapon.

Back to Sumer. (And now I know where R.R. Martin got his "they are Seven!") IMINA BI (The Sevenfold One) They are Seven. They are not born, but created by the omnipresent An - Seven of them. Seven as one among countless asakku spirits. Seven faceless and nameless - Seven of them. In heaven they shine together - They are Seven. Suddenly the earth shuddered - everywhere they were. They are not men, not women, and they are unchanging. They do not have a heart and they do not hear supplications and cries. There is no evil or doubt in them, but they are not soulless. By God the Omni-Heavenly endowed with the sign of sorrow, they do what is theirs. There is no shelter from them, for everywhere they are: From the abyss of the waters of the seas to the waterless mountains and the desert sands -- everywhere there are Seven of them. And in the breath of the wind, and in the torrents of rain, and in the straight lines on the distant roads, they are everywhere. In the sea and in festering sores, in misfortunes and pain, in obstacles, in sorrow - in that is their great service and immeasurable right conferred upon them. Seven gods born on the shortest and darkest day. Seven walk, wander, crawl and weave, and will gain power at the end of the raw and vile year. They complete, overwhelm, and conclude - that is their destiny. So you don't meet them, so that they don’t get you, so that they don't catch you, Cast a spell of Heaven against them! Cast a spell! Cast a spell! ____________________________ From Imina Bi, astrologically traced to the seven stars of the Pleiades, we get our seven-day week. And the shortest day of the year is today. Cast a spell against the Sevenfold One everyone. Just in case.

I've read similar statements about the diet of African slaves in the US. Even menus. Lots of pork, which was at the time believed to nourish lower races but be harmful for the masters -- pigs raised specifically to feed plantation workers. Who were also force overfed during holidays, and excessive consumption of alcohol was also enforced. I'll see if I can find the article. The point of it being that near-starvation was not always the stick used, sometimes it was the opposite. There were whole sciences dedicated to the best methods of handling slaves. Some called for starvation and some for providing adequate or even excessive fuel to the meat machines. In today's world we have both too. Obesity accompanies poverty in today's America.

When it is by choice, or as it sometimes happened, by ideological sway, and not in completely inhumane conditions, perhaps. Most large scale projects, however, involved forced labor, starvation, torture, epidemics and countless millions of deaths. But the leaders of the project could, indeed, be moved toward making it happen by this noble (or should I say "projected," where one's own accomplishments and those of one's chosen group are relegated to someone else to actually physically accomplish but perceived as their own glorious deeds) drive to "achieve things." As Machiavelli put it, "the end justifies the means." Lenin, Stalin and Hitler were fond of that statement. I don't know about the pharaohs but I've a hunch they thought along the same lines.

China is a very old culture with a very adventurous political history. The real arts had to go into hiding many times before. Some, indeed, did not survive. Yet more survived than elsewhere. I suspect way more than survived witch hunts and wars and revolutions and genocides elsewhere. Practice makes perfect... and practicing going underground, "disappearing from the world" as taoists put it, is something they had plenty of throughout history. There were thousand-year-long stretches when, e.g., women couldn't practice any arts in the open. None whatsoever. And yet...

Have you been to Washington, D.C.? St.Petersburg, Russia? Talk about back projection. Freemasonariness itself is one of the fruits, not the only one, but surprisingly prominent -- or maybe not surprisingly. A pyramid is an object and a symbol. There's been a lot of speculations about what it is as an object, but what it is as a symbol is pretty clear methinks. Hierarchical vertical power, resting on the foundation of squashed underdogs. That's the poisonous fruit I was talking about.

Not sure I understand. Yes, it may mean "you are not a student." It may also mean a phase in the relationship. It may mean you need to prove yourself. That "internal transformation" I mentioned that either happens or not. I've seen it in real life. The teacher won't invest in you, you work like crazy, the teacher changes her mind. Becomes generous with you as some taoist Santa Claus and your life is perennial Christmas from then on. I've seen it, not making it up.

Not necessarily demand, it may be a kind of internal transformation that a student either undergoes or not, some teachers have a very hands-off approach. If it was meant to be, you, the student, will get it, and then you'll be tasked with more. An offer of "more" always comes with an implicit requirement of "more self-sacrifice," in whatever shape or form -- more work, more patience, sometimes more money, sometimes more luck. If you're not lucky, they may not want to invest too much into teaching you. Some have sympathy for the underdog who had to climb out of an abyss filled with the dark night of the soul, some will steer clear of its edge. Make an effort to climb out yourself, then we'll talk. Teachers also have personal likes and dislikes. I've seen the best, most talented students ostracized because the teacher just flat out didn't like them. (And I could see why, but was surprised the teacher could see it too, without knowing what I knew about them. But then, I shouldn't have been surprised. Information is in everything, a really good teacher usually knows what someone is about without having to know the details.) And sometimes teachers not so much demand as implicitly expect you to denounce something you hold dear and embrace something you don't like. For the simplest example, and far from the heaviest, they may practice an internal MA that is the competitor of the one you practice. You have loyalty to a different lineage, and they are the teacher's sworn enemy. (True story. ) What are you going to do about it? The level of maturity required of a student of a serious teacher is seldom observed today -- regardless of biological age.

I know you're not American but have you seen a dollar bill?