Mig

I asked the question about the opening of this chapter 視之不見名曰夷，聽之不聞名曰希，搏之不得名曰微，此三者不可致诘，故混而為一 Look at it, it cannot be seen It is called colorless Listen to it, it cannot be heard It is called noiseless Reach for it, it cannot be held It is called formless These three cannot be completely unraveled So they are combined into one Derek Lin translation These 3 descriptions of the Dao are only in this chapter and I have wondered if those terms were important or just descriptions to help understand the reader. What do you think Eric?

most likely is Buddhist, one day I will find out, just curious by nature until my last day. Thanks anyways

I wonder if this story is from Zhuangzi. The story of a ferryman who is asked by a villager and a young man how was on the side of the river. The villager complaining how bad it was where he was and the young man how good it was where he was and the ferryman gave them the same response about how bad it was and how good it was. Something like the grass is (always) greener (on the other side) If someone knows the Chinese name it will be very helpful. Thanks.

Yep, but no answer. Oh well, sometime in the future, I will know it.

Indeed, Hung ga (not hung gar, I find that an aberration to kill the close pronunciation of the Cantonese ga or Ka). I started long time with a Chinese fellow and it is until recently that joined Bucksam Kong school. Short range fighting and 5 basic forms to work on. Lately learning tidsin kyun for internal exercise, breathing, relaxation and isometrics.

Just got confirmed it is not ZZ, but still don't know the origin of the story.

This is the story I am referring to: The Other Side of the River Posted by Derek Lin on December 20th, 2017 in Tao Stories Tweet Once upon a time in ancient China, there was a ferryman who worked along a stretch of the Yangtze river. There were several villages and towns on both sides of the river, so he had steady business taking passengers from one side to the other. Over the years, this brought him into contact with people from all walks of life. One day, a villager approached the ferryman as he was waiting for potential passengers by his boat. The villager said: “Sir, perhaps you can help me with a question. I’m thinking about moving to the other side of the river. You are probably quite familiar with the people over there. Can you tell me about them?” The ferryman was curious: “Why are you thinking about moving? Is there something wrong with your village?” “My village is horrible,” the villager said. “I am surrounded by the worst people you can imagine, so I do not want to live there any longer than necessary. My neighbors make noise when I need quiet. They do not care about the streets being dirty. They have no respect for me. Therefore, I also have no respect for them.” “That does sound horrible,” the ferryman sympathized. “Have you ever let them know how you feel?” “Oh, absolutely!” The villager said, with anger: “I give them unmistakable signs! They disturb me during the day, so I make noise to disturb them at night. They never clean the streets, so I push my trash out the door to teach them a lesson. Whenever they are rude to me, I am rude right back to them twice as much. Of course they know how I feel!” “I see,” the ferryman said. “I have bad news for you. The people on the other side of the river are not so different from the ones in your village. You will find all the things you dislike about your neighbors quite prevalent over there too. If you decide to move, you’ll expend a lot of time and effort, only to end up in the same situation.” “I knew it!” the villager exclaimed in frustration, and started walking away. “There must be a better place somewhere. I’ll find it!” Moments later, another man, much younger than the first, approached the ferryman. “Excuse me,” he said, “I am thinking about moving to the other side of the river. You are probably quite familiar with the people over there. Can you tell me about them?” Again the ferryman expressed curiosity: “Why are you thinking about moving?” The young man said: “I would like to study spiritual teachings with a Tao sage who lives on the other side. If I move closer to him, I can save a lot of time crossing the river back and forth. However, I am a little reluctant to leave my home over here.” “Why the reluctance?” “My village is a wonderful place to live,” the young man beamed. “I have the best neighbors you can imagine. Everyone is kind and considerate, and we are always looking out for one another. Everyone works to keep the neighborhood clean and make it a pleasant environment. There is much mutual assistance and respect, and that is why I am reluctant to leave. I am just not sure I can find such great neighbors when I’m on the other side of the river.” “I see,” the ferryman said. “I have good news for you. The people on the other side are not much different from the ones in your village. You will find all the qualities you like about your neighbors just as prevalent over there. If you do decide to move, it won’t take you long to become part of a community over there that you enjoy.” The young man was happy to hear this. He thanked the ferryman profusely before heading back home, to start planning his move. A nearby street vendor, who had been watching quietly all this time, came over as the young man left. He said to the ferryman: “I could not help but overhear the two conversations you just had. It’s especially interesting to me, since I know those two fellows. They come from the same village, and both of them asked about the same place across the river. Why did you give them such different answers?” “The difference came from them, not from me or the place,” the ferryman said. “The first villager is unaware that all the things he hates originate from within himself: the noisy disturbance, the dirty environment, the lack of respect, and so on. His environment reflects what is already in his heart. Unless he changes himself internally, he will continue to recreate the same negative setting no matter where he goes. “It was similar with the young man,” the ferryman continued. “He may not realize it, but all the things he enjoys about his neighborhood also originate from his heart: the kindness, the consideration, the mutual assistance and respect, and everyone pitching in for the greater good. As long as his positive nature does not change, he will always create the same positive setting no matter where he goes.” “Ah, I see,” the street vendor smiled in comprehension. “So… things are not necessarily better on the other side?” “No,” said the ferryman, “but things definitely get better on every side… when they get better on the inside!” We often hear people talk about the grass being greener on the other side. This is the same mindset as that of the first villager. The current place is not so great, so some other place must be better. Everything will improve, and all the problems will go away, if only you can get yourself from here to there. This applies not just to places, but other aspects of life as well. Some other guy seems to have a better job, with nicer coworkers at a more established company. Some other family seems to have a better house, with nicer neighbors and… hey, even their pets seem cuter! Somehow, the grass has a way of looking greener anywhere but here. As the ferryman pointed out, getting to the greener grass may not be such a great idea. People who make such a move will initially find everything quite rosy, but this never lasts. After a while, the honeymoon ends and the novelty wears off. They discover things are not as ideal as they first thought, and their problems reappear, much to their annoyance. Before long, they start looking for greener grass again. Maybe the last move wasn’t quite right, but the next move will be. Everything will be better once they get to this other place… so, the process restarts itself, for yet another cycle. The young man had a different mindset, despite being from the same village. For him, the greenest grass was at his present location, so he was naturally not inclined to go anywhere. Why face the uncertainty of another place, when he had everything he wanted in the current place? The ferryman pointed out that, for him, another place could be pretty good too. Even though the young man didn’t want to move, he could be just as content in the new place as he had been in the old place. Once he made the transition, he would find the greenest grass growing abundantly in his new environment. It would be as if the greenness had followed him across the river. How can we be more like the young man, always ending up with the greenest grass no matter what? It begins with the way we look at and think about the world. We need to realize the greener grass somewhere else is illusory. We need to see through that illusion, and stop pursuing it from one place to another. This means the cultivation of stability and commitment. No matter where we happen to be, we need to take a good look at the current situation, and stick around to work with it in creative ways. We can always go somewhere else after we have made a difference here, leaving the place better than we found it. More importantly, this also means taking care of the grass within. For both the villager and the young man, the external world reflected their internal reality, not the other way around. The same is true for all of us. Think of the heart as a garden. The grass that grows in this garden is the state of your spirituality. Depending on how much you neglect or tend to your spiritual needs, the grass will wither or flourish. What does this grass need? First, it has to be watered. Let the Tao be the water that nourishes your garden on a regular basis. When you apply the Tao in your life, you are letting in the water every day, refreshing everything as it flows through. The grass will grow beautifully, drawing what it needs from the Tao. The grass also needs the sun. This is the upbeat outlook, the bright smile, and the sense of humor you bring to everything you do. It’s an infectious energy that builds on itself, lightening the mood for you, as well as the mood of everyone around you. Within your heart, this energy is the sunlight that shines through the garden, bringing vitality and brightening everything — especially the grass. If you provide the water and the sun consistently, the grass will not only become beautifully lush, but also begin to work its magic in your world. Whether it’s the job, long-term career, romance, enduring relationships, or anything else — every aspect of your life will become more rewarding and fulfilling. Now you know the truth. The grass isn’t really greener on the other side, but it is definitely greener on your side — because you make it that way. It can be as green as you want it to be, through the work of internal cultivation. As long as you walk the Tao and keep yourself on the path, the greener grass will grow with every step you take… and follow you wherever you go.

Welcome Eric, make sure to check or post in the Daoist Discussion section, lots of material and certainly your input is valuable. Thanks

I couldn't find a study of this text except some postings referring to this book. Is there a thread for this book study? just wondering. Thanks

Faxin, I thought you were Buddhist because the name, JK, let me start with your response from J H McDonald translation before I get to the chapter now or later and compare it with another translation. It seems that DDJ chapters 14, 15 and 16 are connected. Here below Derek Lin translation: Attain the ultimate emptiness Hold on to the truest tranquility The myriad things are all active I therefore watch their return Everything flourishes; each returns to its root Returning to the root is called tranquility Tranquility is called returning to one's nature Returning to one's nature is called constancy Knowing constancy is called clarity Interpretation Reach for a state of ultimate emptiness. Maintain a state of the utmost stillness and tranquility. All living things rise up in lively activity. I watch them and observe their return in the endless natural process of life. Everything is thriving and flourishing, and eventually everything will return to its origin in the recurrent cycles of nature. Returning to the point of origin leads to a state of peaceful and serene tranquility. This tranquility and quietude leads to a return to one's true nature. The return to one's true self and fulfillment of one's true nature, is a constant, unchanging principle. Understanding this constant, unchanging principle leads to clarity, illumination and enlightenment. Those who do not understand the principle of constancy tend to bring upon themselves problems and disasters in a chaotic way. Let's see after the comparison, if your thoughts are the same regarding the message you understand. As for your question Did you choose to come here? It is my understanding that my parents or the man and woman made me so there is no choice, it was the willing or the accident by two person one woman and one man. We are here not by choice.

What a personal chord struck in you? What did capture the heart of some important aspects of this chapter? What's heaven's mandate? Maybe you wonder why I am asking those questions? I went to the beginning of your posting and said, oh good, we will know what you are reading and having an understanding but then I read a chapter here and said to myself, this sounds pretty obvious and those are just words, put it in a nice style and then what? I have been surprised reading how some chapters are important but I never know what is it that makes you wonder, what is that make you think and what do you use in every day as a guide to your turbulent life.

For 14 years I tried to pay child support as per court order and the last year I lost everything, went to court for modification and had my child support reduced tremendously. Indeed, for 14 years I could have gone to court but I knew I had to pay more based on my salary. Not that I was making more money but just enough to live with financial debts. I had 18% of visitation time and by experience I know a judge will enforce me to pay whatever I owed at that time and have less visitation time. I never got more than 18% of visitation time and now that kids are little adults my ex comes back and demand $75K to pay her back. At the present time, I stopped working to find out a solution as according to the law, she can garnish my wages and will have to pay the debt. Legally is totally understandable. So now I am trying to figure out if I tell her: I give you $25 for the first year, $50 for the second and $75 for the third year and then we can come with an agreement for the total sum of the aforementioned debt. And I am trying to figure out how to give money to my kids for their college. Not that I feel obliged but just that I know they will get some money for their education. Now, still wondering what I have to do before I make a mistake. Thanks for reading.

Thanks a bunch, our duty is to help others not to fall in the mud and better watch the crystalline water and enjoy the ride. It is amazing how humans can repeat the same mistake with minor variations over and over.

Hey Joeblast, You hit it on the nail. I almost fell on the guilt mode and your reflection made me think and rethink, what the hell I am thinking. The law is the law and the circumstances I lived I didn't create them, those were the only choices I had, work hard and get less money. I did the best I could for my kids and was there for them 24/7 but could only see them 18%. Furthermore she hates me. Oh yeah, I also heard, you probably did something wrong for her to be scorned. Whatever, all I remember is to keep quiet not to alter my kids life and start all the power struggle. Many times I didn't like feel hopeless and powerless, I acknowledge there was nothing I could do. Now, I have to be a diplomat for some future money negotiation. Anyways, I feel better now after sharing this unpleasant episode and try my best to practice detachment (all the illusion of words and money). Now, it is time for me to learn more about the DDJ and see what I can use to my daily practice. Again, thanks so much, your input helped me tremendously and enjoy this journey (one way ticket, so better enjoy it now). Thanks

This exchange has helped me and sincerely appreciate those genuine feedback. The lesson I learned that most of our interactions are subjective and the poor you or pay because the law says it is not the way to find a solution for your own peace or to remain calm. This is not a hocus pocus scene, it is a situation far common after divorce. I have even seen a guy who didn't want to pay child support and for at least two years kept going to court to modify child support and the judge would allow him to keep coming back. He was making over 6 figures and kept spending his monies until there was restraining order and garnishments. There is no one solution, each of us has our solutions and we make what we want of those solutions. Again, thanks for the feedback.

Thanks Joeblast, it is good to have your perspective. Just to make it clear, I made the mistake (didn't have money to hire a lawyer after termination by force) to represent myself and my ex was belligerent that I shouldn't had any overnight with my kids. Long story short, I tried to get a decent job and all i got was small jobs $2K a month and the judge ordered to pay $1K since then all I did to pay what I could at least $600 and kept asking for overnight which I got Friday night till Sunday 6pm every other week-end. After 3 years, still struggling to get a job and paying $600 a month I was still $400 short. My ex was an executive (making near 6 figures) and few years later she got a boyfriend who live with them since 2007. By the time I get a new better paid job, I gave $750 and still short and lived under debt to pay kids extra curriculum activities every year for at least 7 years. I couldn't go to court because I couldn't afford a lawyer, instead I chose to trying spending time with one my kids in her soccer team. I was working 12 hours a day at that time and was lucky I could leave work at 3 and return at 7 to work overtime. That's how it was. No complains just relating what happened. Not into pity or what if I could, would, should, none of that. I can say even if she's a bitch, she could have made it worse and my only exit could and can be is to leave the country and make a new life somewhere else. I also understand my ex is enraged because she couldn't nail me as she could, my mistake was to believe that people would do some effort for the benefit of our kids. Again, I realized, too late, people can understand the hard way and me as a participant have to learn how act as a rat, mouse to find my way out. Good luck is nice but not the solution of my situation. I think I will stick with the idea of negotiating for a lesser amount and helping my kids for school. We will see. I thank you for your response, clear, to the point and something to make me think and respond. Thanks again.

Thanks a bunch. I appreciate it. True, I could congratulate her but she knows that I don't mean it and on top of that, she hates me. There is hatred that won't go away even if she dies. She didn't want my kids be part of their lives only when it was convenient for her. I think I shared some of this in the past. Now, my kids are 18 and soon 20 and I am no longer part of their lives and that was already planted since 2015. If they contact me is when they need money. When I say no, then I don't hear from them. I send them texts and the one who was the closest to me, just ignores me. The oldest she's kind to respond occasionally. I think I will stick to my plans and reinforce the idea I will help my kids in college. Thanks again

So what Laozi was talking about this chapter? What this chapter tells us about war and we are in the same situation or a little better (not sure in Syria, Congo, Nigeria, Honduras, just to name a few)?

If peace is preferable over war, why war remains an option even today. Different beliefs, religions, political opinions and the world ends always in war, so what good brings Laozi to this world as it is been like this for a long time?

Isn't a Sanskrit translation out there from long time ago? Just curious

As I noticed this chapter had very good interventions, I was wondering about the opposites in the first 2 lines 1. 天下皆知美之為美， 2. 斯惡已； 3. 皆知善之為善， 4. 斯不善已。 It starts with beauty and its opposite or maybe antonym: ugly then it goes into kindness or good and its opposite is not kind, not good. It made me think that there is probably more in line 2 ugly or in line 4 negation + noun. Is it accurate to say they didn't have a word as an antonym for kind, good? Or is it more in the commentary I am missing already? Then line 6. 有無相生，it starts with existence and non existence. In chapter one we have 故恆無欲也，以觀其眇 non existence desires 恆有欲也，以觀其所噭 existence desires Why different position on those two you and wu?

I guess it is not important to hang on one word, if the word was there it was for a reason and most likely to rhyme mi-au and ji-au, the importance is the message but without the help with someone who had studied the old book I would have never guessed or found out. And indeed it is better to have you than not to have so no more desires. I guess to have it you had desires prior to have. The famous sale saying: buy with emotions and justify with logic.

Indeed the line about "mystery" that word appears in the last line. I guess is a translation issue or I didn't understand anything LOL

So what's the result of the last line? Miao as subtley, wonder, essence?

I was wondering about the word ai 愛 in Daoism. I have seeing the word in some chapters of the DDJ and translated as "love". What is love? What is love in Daoism? Is the word ai in Chinese equates the same as in English ( I don't say western languages as the cultural connotations are different). I have also read that compassion in Chinese has love content just as benevolence. Just wondering and picking brains here and there. Thanks and Happy Friday!!