Mig

And what is the reason of the question? 無名 and 有名 are key terms in the DDJ, and are found also in chapters 32, 37, and 41. It seems to me that isolating one term from one chapter may fall into confusion and the terms or the lines may be lost in translation. The editions by Heshang Gong and Wang Bi are popular and are used as a reference with all the commentaries from different scholars throughout ages. It seems to me that the importance is to know how those lines are helpful to understand the whole text and how to apply that knowledge for those who are interested in using it as practical manual and cultivation tool. Your thoughts?

It seems that the whole concept of noun and verb is a very European concept that it makes me wonder if the ancient philologists or scholars paid attention to it or the explanation or commentary was more important. It also makes me wonder when a Chinese reader how they understand both terms,yǒu wú有无 in plain Chinese. I keep reading many postings focusing character by character and forgetting that the language had evolved for the past thousand years. The ancient Chinese apparently didn't rely on tones and the pronunciation was very different from today. So there was certainly another way to explain when they taught and learned from commentaries on how to interpret line by line, structure by structure and put it into perspective as a manual to be understood. Later in history we see how many terms changed and being used by different lineages as well as mixing Buddhist or confucianist concepts. I think what is important is to know what the native scholar can teach or explain how those terms can be understood. Just saying

Thanks and let's see if I follow you with this reasoning and probably I am overthinking. But for the sake of clarity, I have a garden in the backyard and if I let the nature takes it course, the garden will be devastated by insects, weeds and even the soil may lack nutrients, so I should just let nature do its thing? If I take care of my garden, I need to work daily to keep it clean, off insects, weeds and other mammals and birds that like my veggies or fruits and I feel that in obstructing nature. It seems that the Chinese term is more explicit than English when you say順其自然 shùn qí zì rán

I am always lost with those big words and sentences that anyone can get lost. What does: "let nature take its course". Could you give an example? Of course I have to follow day after day or night after night because that is how it is, nothing I can do about it. If there is an earthquake I cannot follow the devastation of destruction and I better find refuge somewhere. Also, I cannot do anything about or against an earthquake. So what is left? How can I do not interrupt the course of nature? Thanks

Have you checked this: I ching numerology : based on Shao Yung's classic Plum blossom numerology

how do you know that nature is the mother to all beings on earth? if there constant destruction and survival in nature, what's the purpose of creating each being. What kind of mother is that? If I look in the animal kingdom animals have some kind of affection to each other in their pack, so it is not all violence that I see in nature

I think in the Historian Records for Sima qian, chapter 63, ‘Biographies of Laozi and Hanfei’ [laozi hanfei liezhuan老子韩非列传]: there is a passage about the Master Kong talking about Laozi as a dragon. ，吾知其能飛；魚，吾知其能遊；獸，吾知其能走。走者可以為罔，遊者可以為綸，飛者可以為矰。至於龍，吾不能知其乘風雲而上天。吾今日見老子，其猶龍邪！ I know that birds can fly, I know that fish can swim, and I know that wild animals can run. Those that run can be [trapped in] nets. Those that swim can be [caught by] fishing lines. Those that fly they can [be shot by] arrows trailing a silk string. But with dragons I cannot know if they ride the winds and clouds and ascend to the heavens. Today I met Lao Zi, who is just like a dragon! What's this story all about?

If that manual was used as a manual and with all the philosophical currents and the religious moralists, why didn't they stop the carnage, looting and destruction from what we know in China history. What's so new about that little booklet?

Isn't that what happened throughout all mankind history? and isn't there is no winner or loser in a war, everyone losses except those old geysers who send young kids to kill each other?

Thanks for the translation and observations. If the entire book is to never go into battle why battles have always existed especially in China? As for the translation why people translate: The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting.

Shìgù bǎizhàn-bǎishèng, fēi shàn zhī shàn yě; bù zhàn ér qūrén zhī bīng, shàn zhī shànzhě yě. 是故百戰百勝，非善之善也；不戰而屈人之兵，善之善者也。 Ch 3《謀攻 - Attack by Stratagem》 Hence to fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting. Gilles translation And Mair's translation: For this reason, being victorious a hundred times in a hundred battles is not the most excellent approach. Causing the enemy forces to submit without a battle is the most excellent approach. and summarizes: The main point of this chapter is that one should only go into battle when one has the advantage. It closes with the famous dictum about knowing oneself and one’s opponent. I am having a problem understanding the original and the English translation. Any ideas?

I couldn't find a discussion about this novel and would like to hear what you have learned from this succinct novel and how it has been helpful in learning about Daoism. Thanks

Many of us are newbies for many years, so don't worry some here may help. I saw Luke Chan videos on Youtube and found his DDJ interpretation useful, not the best but useful. I wonder why the name of chilel, what the lel means in the compound word?

Isn't that more of a characteristic or properties? I still don't know how the Chinese layman will understand such concept??

I guess is the English translation that may confuse me. Could you give an example of real life to self, so/it? An example to understand in plain English for the plebe like me.

so it is more as in 应之以自然 in accordance to nature, so where this spontaneity comes from. I am sorry I don't see how nature can be spontaneous as if something happens is for a reason, just like atoms and whatever goes on in nature, constant flow and recycling, who knows.

Where in zhuāngzǐ 莊子 talks about spontaneity? Or is it the interpretations that explain more about the natural way and it is translated as spontaneity?

This is all confusing. Could you elaborate in plain English how can something be perfectly aligned? Does that exist being perfect in anything? It sounds that you compare yourself to the Dao to pretend to be in harmony. What kind of Dao is that?

Where do we find in zhuāngzǐ 莊子talking about spontaneous natural way?

What about your own reflexes? How does it happen on its own? What examples can you give if it is not meant to be controlled? It seems that spontaneous acts need to defined with examples. For example if I am in the middle of something and I start drawing out of the blue something all new and impressive, I would say I did it spontaneously. How would you say that in Chinese?

Have someone read his Zhuangzi translation? Any opinion or help to share reading his translation? I have Mair but I find it a good reading as a past time reading not as a reference translation to understand the original text or how Zhuangzi writings is understood in Chinese culture. Is it really worth to buy it if one is interested in learning more about ZZ philosophy, the meaning of his parables and how is interpreted or taught in the Chinese culture? Thanks

I was checking here and saw a quote as follows: do not struggle go with the flow of things and you will find yourself at one with the mysterious unity of the universe Is it really from ZZ or another made up quote. If it is real where can I find it in the original ZZ?

Thank you for your kind response. It is interesting that you are the first one who made a remark about Graham translation in this forum on this posting. I took a quick look of your website and I was struck about still using an old transliteration imposed by the English speakers of that era with the help of local native scholars. Pinyin, although not perfect, maybe the Korean hangeul is more precise by its phonological notation, still widely accepted, just like Latin alphabet is accepted around the world. More curious, is that even pinyin still taught in schools, people forget to add the accents or tones, just like you do when you spell words in French. Something that I have noticed that most translations miss the cultural, philosophical and linguistic aspect just like Zhuangzi and Confucius are great gateways to understanding the heart and world of Chinese intellectuals, both in the past and today. So now, I am curious to know where those commentaries come from? Is that your proper interpretation from the point of view of a western European? Thanks

What is 神 shén? it sounds more than awareness, isn't it? or what's spirit in practical terms? Is it just an abstract term that everyone or a lineage take it for granted?

Isn't the thought of returning to the original found also in chapters 14, 16, 25, 28, 30 and 52?. Is it cyclical or the flow between hard and soft where soft always prevail?