Arkady Shadursky

Walker has earlier posted an instructive post (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/23165-daoist-zhang-gaocheng/page-2#entry736114) about this kind of tactic: Instead of talking about the topic itself - we again and again see your cries that "evil Daoists are attacking my false translations"! It makes no sense. --- Arkady

I support this, thank you. Agree. While some interpretations might be wrong, and some - even be made wrong intentionally. --- Best Regards, Arkady

I actually thought a true researcher would only be thankful for pointing to his / her mistakes... Since the mistakes (probably even intentional as described above!) were published earlier I feel it important to correct this for all the fellow members. It is by no means a personal attack - it is founded and is not against a person - but against a mistranslation published. I believe such corrections are constructive, contributing, violate no forum rules, and in the end are just. When A.A.Khokhlov has created the original topic you came there not thanking for the corrections, not providing your arguments but yelling again and again "attacking me! attacking me!". The topic has become littered and was rightly moved to Hundun. I've asked mods what to do in such cases - they advised requesting splitting the topic. It is what I'm going to do if you are planning to do this again. Thank you. ---Best Regards, Arkady P.S. BTW, "Taoist Texts" you were named 6 times (+2 times by the forum engine) in my messages above and not "11 (eleven)" as you managed to "count".

It shows us how important is to know the tradition, history and methodology of School which texts you are trying to translate. Otherwise numerous mistakes may appear: 1) Words of Wu Chongxu and his brother Wu Shouxu are mixed here into one heap, attributing both to one person - "author Wu" (see in red). And they of course are not even "twin brothers" as "Taoist Texts" guessed later: 伍沖虛還有一個堂弟，即是號為真陽子的伍守虛，在傳承上他是伍沖虛的師弟，他和伍守陽同注過《天仙正理》，他們兄弟二人的成就是聯繫在一起，世人提起伍柳派時，所謂的“伍”即是同時指沖虛、守虛二人 堂弟 - younger male patrilineal cousin. 2) Tianxian zhengli actually consists of two books, and in the phrase translated as "realize the dharma guidance of the Two Ways, is not it even better?" Wu Shouxu actually says about understanding two books (of Tianxian zhengli), saying that it would be useful. 3) There is no "enter the sainthood" in the text. It is enter the wisdom (shenren = sage, wiseman - ideal of confucianism). 4) Chinese numbers are also wrong - there is 60 000 words, not "600 000 words" 5) The part of this translation "but without a teacher would those get you into the saintly realms?" has the following consequence: either Wu Chongxu and Wu Shouxu didn't know what they were writing contradicting themselves or "Taoist Texts" didn't get their words in his translation. I suspect the second is much much more true by A.A.Khokhlov --- Best Regards Arkady

If you don't know ancient Chinese, the Daoist treatises are not valuable to you by themselves, but only if the correct translation is provided. So we believe it is very useful to clarify some misleading concepts. Here is the quote from the neighboring thread: The translation provided here by "Taoist Texts" is incorrect and misleading for those members who don't know Chinese. So here are some corrections and clarifications. 1) The text in red "不可晓 hard to comprehend" actually means impossible to comprehend and can not be translated as "hard to comprehend". Considering it is beginners level Chinese and previous discussions with "Taoist Texts" and awaken (see bottom of this message, "Impossible to do 不可能"), sadly it starts looking like the false translation is provided by "Taoist Texts" intentionally, to falsely support his position. 2) And in the case of correct translation here we see a contradiction: in one sentence it is said it would be impossible without a Teacher and in another - that you don't need a verbal transmission. And Yuan Gongfu himself explicitly explains it in the last sentence of the commentary "Taoist Texts" has quoted but hasn't translated: "There is a contradiction (reverse words): did not want people to lightly give preference to one (i.e. both parts are necessary - having a Teacher and studying texts)." 3) In addition to it. The second sentence is from the afterword and right before it Zhang Boduan says that before he wrote Wuzhenpian he has revealed some parts of the practice to the people who were not appropriate for teaching. Because of it he got a disease as a Heavenly punishment and decided never ever teach not appropriate people again. So obviously he haven't revealed the secrets of practice in his text. If you have the translation of Wuzhenpian - we invite you to check it yourself, you only need to read short afterword. I believe with this commentary the text becomes more clear to fellow members. by A.A.Khokhlov --- Best Regards Arkady

We have a set of statements from one of fellow members, about Daoism and Daode Center in particular. As answering it seems to be off the topic for the original thread I've decided to open a separate one. BTW I am sure that even from unsubstantiated statements could be contributing to the DaoBums - in case they get a reasonable comment. So here it is Here is quote from Huangdi's Yinfujing (黃帝陰符經), James Legge translation: http://www.sacred-texts.com/tao/sbe40/sbe4020.htm 6. The method of spontaneity proceeds in stillness, and so it was that heaven, earth, and all things were produced. The method of heaven and earth proceeds gently and gradually, and thus it is that the Yin and Yang overcome (each other by turns). The one takes the place of the other, and so change and transformation proceed accordingly. 7. Therefore the sages, knowing that the method of spontaneity cannot be resisted, take action accordingly and regulate it (for the purpose of culture) <...> Under the link (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/) you can find very detailed article written by Chief Instructor of Yuxianpai and WuLiupai Shcools - A.A.Khoklov where stated that transmission from True Teacher is required and also written for what purpose one needs the texts. The quote provided without its contexts and may be misleading to fellow members. Here is the full quote: Hao Datong: The Master-Father (Wang Zhe) opened below him his school of teaching hoping that each [disciple] would cultivate immortality. I now see disciples all over the place creating karma.They speak of strange and deceitful things such as entering dreams and sending outthe Spirit. There is a comment below which is describing the sense of the quote and the sense is - students must not talk much about miracles but should do their practice instead. And what is even more interesting - several sentences below in the same text goes the description of miracles demonstrated by Patriarch Wang Zhe (Wang Chongyang) who has indeed successfully attained the Dao: As for [Wang Zhe] sending out his Spirit and entering dreams,throwing his umbrella,tossing his cap,and other such deeds of rising high above or disappearing,these were are all his [acts of] expedient wisdom and are not [related to] the master’s basic teachings.As forstudents who wish to hear the great Tao,it is [only] possible if they do not drown themselves in magical techniques. Well... Seems some of the fellow members can not live a single day without posting about us Let us give fellow members few examples regarding this: Referring to the words of Patriarchs (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42854-about-necessity-of-having-a-true-teacher/) we say that guidance of the True Teacher is required, and there is no way to attain Dao from books while "Taoist Texts" is sure that everything could be studied from books (with no examples of it in the history ). Which of these is contradicting the Tradition? Same to the Patriarchs of the Past we teach our students the concept of dual cultivation of Xing and Ming is required while "Taoist Texts" is saying that working with Xing is enough. Which of these is contradicting the Tradition? We are researching, studying and teaching the sense behind traditional Daoist symbols explaining alchemy - such as Yin-Yang, Bagua, hexagrams of Yijing and other. While "Taoist Texts" says these traditional Daoist symbols have no relation to Neidan process :D We provide clear and founded translations of the Daoist texts fragments against mistakes, quotes-without-contexts (i.e. with changed sense) and even cases of probable intentional mistranslations from the other side (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43034-correcting-some-misinterpretations). What from that is aligned with Tradition and what is contradicting it? And there are much much more examples here... Please see 2nd quote about Wang Chongyang above Guess if a one read Daoist treatises instead of Harry Potter he wouldn't get into such elementary fallacy as these... Have a good day!

No matter what she would have wanted to write, more important what she would have been allowed to write. Same to our experience. In China during many months of travel we've only met 1 drunk person (it were small cities of old China). Different stages require different time. Immortality starts from stage 3 of 5. Wasn't Patriarch Wang clear enough in the poem dawei quoted here (thank you for constructive contribution): Abandon grave and graveyard to wander among clouds and waters.13 Is anything more enjoyable than wandering among clouds and waters? We haven't checked the translation, but I believe this phrase should be fine enough. As we can see Wang's poem has both sides: the part about alcohol and the part about escaping the death. And it is always up to you what to put on the first place here: alcohol addiction or opportunity to become Xian... However to fully understand what was meant here by Wang Chongyang and why did he engage both of these parts together we need to study original text in Chinese. Investigate every single character he used and all the details of epoch during which it has been written.--- Best Regards, Arkady

There is no contradiction with what I was saying before. Wang stopped drinking alcohol right after he met the Teacher. Well, it depends. Do you mean Chinese lady from 12th Century or the modern one? Being a man from 12th Century or from 21th? That's a great difference taking into account emancipation of women and feminism of the latest centuries. If a man is weak and lacking willpower (insufficient Yang), then probably wife could take control over him (if she has got more Yang). Yes that could happen nowadays, but I doubt it is the case for 12th century's Wang Chongyang. Dear, Ormus. If you insist on Wang being "dead ill in agony", then please share the source where Wang is dying in agony. It would be nice to look at original Chinese source. Or if you don't know Chinese then at least provide where have you taken it from. If your position is based only on the sources where an assumption made: "It is possible", "seems", "likely" than your position couldn't be stronger than "It is possible", "seems", "likely". This is a simple logic and the basics of scientific approach. What about 6 years... Can we be sure that it was actually 6 years? Can we be sure that dead means "dead"? There is only one way to know - studying original sources. BTW, Please consider a word "immortal". Daoist community is not using this word without a reason. --- Best Regards, Arkady

Agree. However here lies a border between amateur and a scientist. In science there are ways to determine what is true and what is false. While amateur (it is not an offensive term!) can only read books and articles with conclusions of modern authors and do not have enough instruments and time to distinguish between good and bad sources. And that is why scientific books and fiction are on different shelves in bookstores. It is indeed true that the most important for us are present Teachers. But please remember - we should not judge about the entire Daoism by looking at 10-20 modern public masters. In the Past there also were Daoist priests and they were available for everyone and were "face" of Daoism, but neidan Masters have always hidden from authorities of their time, and one of the reasons behind it is quite obvious... --- Best Regards, Arkady

Dear Ormus, Thank you for your opinion. Any information about ancient Masters is extremely valuable, especially about their human way. We are actually looking for it ourselves. However we only work with original documents in Chinese to not get lost in researcher's personal interpretations. Of course we shouldn't only accept the information we like and discard what we dislike - it would be childish for a researcher. That is why we really appreciate your contribution. We believe you consider different points of view as well... We believe if among all the scientific works there are lets say 20 pages of someone's critique against a Master - we shouldn't stop studying other 20000 pages about Master's great deeds. Agree, this seems to be typical story of how Teacher extraordinarily corrects his student's vices. --- Best Regards, Arkady

At least we are glad to see you are not calling him alcohol addict --- Arkady

Thank you Ormus for your help. Well as far as "His wife expell him from house" statement left with no provided source, let's not consider it seriously BTW, not sure where have you taken this from, but the one who writes that wife could ever expel husband from the house (in 12th century) seems to be complete profane in Chinese Culture. Anyway let's look closer to the other statements: Please look at highlighted parts in blue (all the your statements are based on those). As we can see the researcher didn't have enough evidence to prove these points and all of this is personal opinion of the researcher. Which seems to correspond well to my initial guess: --- Best Regards, Arkady

Dear Ormus, I'll happily give you an answer, but for my answer to be complete could you please provide us with a source for two more claims you did here against Wang Chongyang: 1. "His wife expell him from house because he was acochol addict" 2. "he die because of big health problems" Thank you --- Arkady

Thank you awaken, I was asking Ormus absolutely the same questions. He told that he's got the proof for defaming Wang Chongyang. Also thank you for this valuable evidence about Wang Chongyang's Martial Arts achievements. ~~~ Taoist Texts, if you were caught on role-playing (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/23165-daoist-zhang-gaocheng/page-2#entry735950), that doesn't mean that everyone here is doing the same. Many of the members here are really studying Daoist Alchemy, some of them are visiting Chinese Masters of different Schools several times a year for more than 30 years in a row. The miracles of Daoism - are all the consequences of the true alchemic achievement. Yet miracles are not the goal, they naturally appear with growth of practitioner's level. Even in the very beginning of correct alchemy practice the little miracles start to appear in practitioner's life and we are always reported about it by our students. One of the first miracles to appear - is (among others) a miracle of 悟 - understanding natural laws, principles etc. - for example, understanding Bagua. It is one of signs that student is practicing by traditional school. One of the most outstanding is achievement of Shenxian - he is able to manifest his Yang spirit to do deeds in external world. There is a description of his abilities by modern Wuliupai Patriarch (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42984-yangshen-perspectives-in-traditional-schools/#entry729116). If you manage to meet and start practicing the rare ancient method which was used by Patriarchs of the Past - there is no doubt you will be able to achieve the same results as they have achieved. In Daode Center we call this method (and result) - Ancient Dao.--- Best Regards, Arkady

Let me please third time ask you for the sources beyond "funny stories" to what you've mentioned, namely: official document saying Wang Chongyang was very unhealthy (I assume it should be medical file) official document saying Wang Chongyang was alcoholic (I assume it should be some kind of police report) official documents saying Wang Chongyang has met Liu Dongbin and Zhongli Quan in his hallucinations (I assume it should be some kind of psychiatric clinic inquiry) About evidences of Wang Chongyang's miracles - for example please see "Teachings and Practices of the Early Quanzhen Taoist Masters" by Stephen Eskildsen, 2004, page 132, 133. On page 134 you can also find examples of miracles by his student Ma Yu (Ma Danyang - founder of Yuxianpai School).--- Arkady

As Teacher of Single Yang is not writing about private life of ancient Patriarchs - there is no analogy here. Intresting enough why are you denying multiple mentionings about miracle abilities of Wang Chongyang and believe only to a single modern scientist’s opinion... Sometimes it happens that people get confused about what they read in books and mix it up with their own ideas... What about this particular case - it would be very interesting for me to read such a research, see its sources, ask clarifying questions to my Teacher if it is necessary. It seems to be constructive, isn't it? Thank you.--- Arkady

I see "Shaolin based tradition" in your interests - probably this is why you express this kind of "martial arts" point of view. Probably you are right in general - talking about the society in overall. But as here we all are Daoism followers we all are cultivating. Cultivating, the harmony inside of us is growing. And the harmony in communication between us is growing as well. Even if some part of members would not cultivate - the other, major part will do it. And our Community becomes more and more harmonious. The general "energy field" of the forum inevitably influences even those who are not cultivating - helping them to change. I am sure we are able to go along this way.--- Best Regards, Arkady

Thank you Walker. IMHO you vocalize what do most of the fellow members clearly see. I believe the root of this is in violation of the Tolerance Taiji (http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/42695-tolerance-taiji/#entry723795) A.A.Khokhlov has written about few months ago. (BTW as extreme Yin gives birth to Yang - this violation may have corresponding consequence...) Once the community wants it - I am sure one day this forum will inevitably become mostly free of trolls, demagogy, offenses etc. For all of us it would be real step forth to the Dao - as an ultimate harmony. --- Best Regards, Arkady

Well, Ormus, if 20-th century's Louis Komjathy and Stephen Eskildsen wrote this about 11-th century's Wang Chongyang - it has to be complete truth (quanzhen ) Now all the Quanzhenjiao and derived Schools daoists are only left to make seppuku, and you are left to switch to Buddhism. Hope no one of scientists ever write that Buddha was drug addict and child molester, otherwise you would have the only and the last option left - to switch to Abrahamic religions. Anyway, I wish you good luck! (just in case - the text above is mostly humor, except sincere wish of luck). --- Best Regards, Arkady P.S. Could you please provide here exact source for your opinion about Wang Chongyang - author, book, page and quote (if possible) - it would be quite interesting to have a look. Thank you.

Hello qicat thank you for your question. I do have my own research on this matter and my opinion as well. However let me please additionaly consult with my Teacher on this point. Dear Ormus, Almost entire non-religious Daoism existing nowadays is a heritage of Wang Chongyang. All all monks in all all monasteries in every mountains (of non-religious Daoism) nowadays represent Wang Chongyang's School. All the Daoist Schools in China respect Wang Chongyang as one of the greatest Patriarchs of the past. WuLiupai and Yuxianpai Schools regard him as a grand-founder of these Schools. Also my Teacher told me Wang Chongyang played invaluable role in saving Daoism Teaching - taking into account the Buddhist influence of his time. Probably you've simply been confused by someone's personal opinion about Wang Chongyang.--- Best Regards, Arkady

Excuse me, Ormus. What do you mean? --- Best Regards, Arkady

Thank you Jeff, you are welcome! The Tradition says even more - the appearance of Yang spirit happens physically, it is not equal to Ying ghosts coming in dreams, apparitions and so on. And it is one of the ways to distinguish between Yang and Yin spirits. The first is able to manipulate with physical world, while the last is not...--- Best Regards, Arkady

Nice point Walker. The situation becomes even more weird taking into account that: 1) "Taoist Texts" claims to become immortal after reading Liu Huayang's text . However this doesn't prevent him and awaken to attack WuLiupai together and agree with each other on every statement. 2) High-level Quanzhen Masters in China use Wu Chongxu's treatises as a textbooks on inner alchemy while teaching their disciples - they find Wu Chongxu's texts very clear and complete. BTW, One of Masters has officially visited Dao De Center in Moscow last year and gave lectures based on WuLiupai's Tianxian zhengli treatise. And we were pretty surprised by that fact. Master also noticed schemes from Liu Huayang's treatise on the walls, said he have studied them and gave us valuable comments on them.--- Best Regards, Arkady

Fortunately, I'm convinced that our community is getting better as a result of this discussion. I believe that one of the most important qualities of any researcher who'd like to achieve something via cultivation - is the ability to distinguish between trues and lies, between true teacher and a profane. Dear TT, now you made a statement of your divinity without any proof (would like to remind everyone, that here TT claimed that he "obtained dao" = equally to LaoZi, Lu Dongbin and other immortals :D ) Being pointed to obvious mismatch with qualities of immortals, instead of answering fellow members you have posted off-topic with statements which seem to be not true. We don't see any sense to analyze each unfounded statement of "Taoist Texts". However this one would probably be useful for those who are new to the Daoism - please see my comment on this here. Thank you for your attention. --- Best Regards, Arkady

Ok, but who is that man? Obviously this teacher is Chinese, while we are talking about Alchemy. Chinese who talks Chinese. Perhaps later in future, when Chinese Schools branches will settle down on the West and new generation of disciples will appear, generation of those who were taught in their native lands, then we could talk about studying without knowledge of Chinese. Dao not bound, however studying of it is currently bound, yes. Let's just for a second assume that while one is still studying he or she doesn't need to study texts, however when one finally achieved the result he/she should get understanding after all. Otherwise it's just fictitious "achievement" which only exists in the head of that person. I did't claim that I attained the Dao, TT did. Why then all those arguments on the forum? One answer for a simplest theoretic question about bagua, flawless behavior, balanced emotional state (specificaly manifested in non-giant font size in the posts, avatar picture, lexicon, etc. ), manifestation of yang spirit - and 1000 other oportunities, to solve all the argues here - that would be the sign of the one who really obtained the Dao. But instead, only claims about self-genious and claims about "obtaining" some imaginary "elixir". Anyway, most important here is: after getting absolute perfection (Dao), is it possible to make foolish mistakes in simplest questions? I doubt that... If I would met a person (not talking about anyone concrete now), who is claiming that he/she is perfect and at the same time: - claiming about total superiority over everyone in the most indelicate way - showing up severe disharmony in the discussion - not understanding most important taoists concepts and symbols - making mistakes in simplest Chinese - intentionally changing the words of Patriarchs in posted "translation" for the sake of here-and-now advantage in the discussion - using false loginc in the conversation etc. I would guess that this person either totally enchained by illusions of his/her mind, or this is ordinary charlatan, who is trying to trick people. Everything is obvious here for me. --- Best Regards, Arkady