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Request to the moderators: could you please move these posts somewhere where they will not clutter up the OP's thread, and where they could better contribute to the pool of information and benefit all those interested in these topics?

Would you mind elaborating Brian? Which lineage? I have had contact with one of his daughters who runs a TCM clinic in Barcelona.Her name is Dr Hu Yuezhen. In fact she practises a form of spontaneous Qigong. I have watched a couple of her demonstrations, and she definitely knows more than she lets on, or is prepared to teach. I read a documentary article on the Doctor in which she explained that Hu Yaozhen her father had deliberately avoided teaching either of his daughters anything which might have caused them problems with the Chinese Communist government - he knew that it could put all of them in danger. So apparently he did not teach them anything remotely martial, only basic Qigong and TCM related practices. But nevertheless they would have been exposed to years of watching their father train and spar with the best fighters of the time. I am very interested in the relationship between GM Hu Yaozhen and GM Wang Xiangzhai (Yiquan/Dachengquan). Between them they were responsible for the introduction of Zhan Zhuang Qigong treatment into hospitals and clinics, and they revolutionised the system. Both of them were highly renowned for their martial prowess and had a great deal of respect for one another apparently. I think they also had similar skill sets, which they probably exchanged between them.

Just in case it may be of interest to you, here is a Youtube video of the Shuang Yang Pei Ho Shaolin form I mentioned, first performed and explained by GM Tan Soh Tin: https://youtu.be/xzUUkov1XE0 The next is an earlier video of GM Tan Soh Tin: https://youtu.be/chZO1T0gtBI The video itself is not so interesting, but the narrative is very informative about the art. The third video is Sifu Iain Armstrong, who was an assistant instructor and part of the same team I went to Singapore with in 1987: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NUUrYwdkGvw You will see that the video comes from NYPA...

Thank you Sudhamma, what you are describing isn't the same thing. When I practise that I normally condense the Qi then put it back into the LDT. What I am talking about is actually in the tendons, and does not involve actually moving very much at all. It is all about feeling it. I think the exercise you are referring to is the one Feng Zhiang said he wished he had been able to practise this exercise much more than he had been able to. But that is an expansive movement out to the sides. What I practise does not change the Zhan Zhuang posture. The hands remain in the same position facing the shoulders and chest. But with the opening they become full, and closing empty. This can also cause the weight to shift forward and back. It is similar to using the lifting of the foot to uproot an opponent in Taijiquan. In other words it has more to do with intention than actual physical movement. That said, the tendons of my hand do stretch considerably during this pratice. In fact it's really quite subtle. Master Lam knew what I was doing because he could see the Qi and the energetic anatomy. It was fascinating to watch how he played with the Qi of his students. Thank you, I was never told that. But I must say that I always suspected that the crane stance we had to hold (like the first Karate Kid) during the first few year of training must have been some form of Neigong. But all that means is internal training rather than Waigong external training. But most of the Fukien White Crane was very external the way we practised it. But the NYPA guys in Singapore were far more internal and soft in their practise. I learnt a lot from them, but eventually decided I was more drawn to Taijiquan, which is why I left and went over to Yiquan/Dachenquan. Qigong is a very generic term, probably an expression coined for western consumption. It really isn't correct, and I certainly don't think that the distinctions made by many between Neigong and Qigong here are correct. Zhan Zhuang is classed as Qigong, but is also the basis for Neigong in many systems. In fact the postures could be exactly alike, but according to what is going on energetically could be either Waigong or Neigong. The Hunyuan system also uses Zhan Zhuang postures, and is described as Qigong. But in fact it is Neigong. Well it didn't work for me . My Sifu had to rescue me using Yunnan Baiyao to stop the bleeding in my throat after taking an opponent down who chopped my throat as he fell. So much for Iron Shirt! That put an end to my full contact days. There are many similarities between Fukien White Crane and Wing Chun. There are those who claim that they are closely related, and I can believe it. But the fact that Qigong is such an integral part of Wing Chun makes me really curious as to why Bruce Lee had such a negative view toward Qi. That said, there are rumours that he learned Yiquan, so maybe he really did believe in Qi? No, that was just a theory of mine, because of Master Tan's reaction to that boy's demonstration. But you never know...But you do know about Suanng Yang - Sun and Frost White Crane? Mabu, mocabu etc., is also used in Yiquan, especially the Beijing schools. But we hardly ever used any Chinese terminology for whatever reason. Probably because Master Lam was a student of the late Professor Yu Yong Nian. I just allow RAB to happen naturally. If you are going to strike someone it is automatic, or if you need to make a great effort. I spent a considerable time only breathing that way, but it is not what Wang Xiangzhai taught. Any kind of control over the breath tends to create tension. The exception for me at the moment is when training with the Taiji ball. I tend to practise that only with RAB, because that is the way Yang Jwing Ming teaches it, and my intention is to strengthen my constitution, especially my lower back. In any case at the moment I am mainly focused on practising the Flying Phoenix Qigong system. I am finding it very healing and easy to learn (just the first 2 levels). But I normally start of with my rotation exercise, working from the head down through the body as a warm up. The eye rotation puts me into a meditative state, perfect for the FPQ meditations.

It was a long time ago, and I never really took it very seriously as we only practiced the rocking during the Wuji warmup, but I seem to remember being told that it affected the breathing so that we were learning how to breathe from the heel like the Taoist sages, and warned never to remain with the weight on the Yongquan points, otherwise the Qi would rise up to the head and become blocked. But I did not make myself clear - when Master Lam told me he knew what I was doing, he was talking about my opening and closing using the hands - not the rocking (although this flexing can cause that too)... So when I was flexing my hands, yes I did understand the energetic effect, and I still practice that sometimes. I would describe it as the feeling of Peng Jin when you feel the pressure right into the hands and fingers - it feels full, during opening, then as you close, the pressure is released and feels empty. I also feel a cool breeze on my face during the opening (moving away from the body). There is also a connection with RAB when practising in that way - the Peng Jin opening coincides with the outbreath as the LDT pushes forwards. This is probably why this is also intrinsic to Fa Jin and trial of breath (in Yiquan, even though any RAB is involuntary).

Sudhamma, I confess to feeling a little guilty about writing so much whilst unconsciously steering the thread off topic - my apologies to the OP. That was not my intention. It sounds as though you know NYPA personally, are you in Singapore? When I was still part of the school the art was known as 'Tiger Crane Combination Kung Fu', and we also learned 'Sun and Frost White Crane' (Suann Yang?), which was one of the Shaolin forms I was in Singapore to demonstrate. I did not know then that it was actually Fukien White Crane, although some of the monks called it 'Eng Chun Pei Ho', which in another dialect would be Bai Hung? - my Chinese is very very very limited! So if I read behind the lines, are you saying that the spontaneous 5 animals form may have actually been a secret part of the Fukien White Crane art? Also, only Grand Master Ang Lian Huat was talked about - none of the previous lineage, so thank you for that information. The training in Singapore was far more enjoyable than the way we used to practice in the UK. For one thing far less stretching and warmups were necessary in the high humidity of Singapore, but also we were taught some really neat conditioning exercises (some of which I overdid to the point of my arms and legs being totally covered in bruises). But I was able to develop my tiger claws to a phenomenal extent through the use of some very basic equipment which we did not have back in the UK. But despite the fact that I understand that the forms/patterns are actually Qigong, the only standing we were ever taught was basic horse stance and monkey horse stance and many hours of crane stance. But absolutely no Zhan Zhuang! We were told that Sam Ch'ien was all that was necessary for iron shirt development. Regarding the Qi following the movement of the hands around the LDT, this is definitely part of the Hunyuan 12 Qigong I mentioned, although I confess that I never understood why there were 36 Yang rotations and only 24 Yin...but I still think that combining that form with RAB was what began the movement of Qi in the LDT. But that is not massage - the hands do not touch the body. The actual Daoyin is integrated with the final part of the form. I no longer practice any type of MCO. In my opinion the Zhan Zhuang practice when trained correctly naturally opens up the meridians and both the Microcosmic and Macrocosmic orbits open up as well. After my negative experiences with the MCO I wouldn't want to risk practising it incorrectly again. Just to clarify the 5 animal/element system I described (not the NYPA version) - regarding the animal sounds, the way it was explained to me was through the relation between the 5 organs and the 5 animals, particularly the the Bear, Tiger and Monkey which produced these vocalisations in order to balance the internal organs. But when I experienced it, I also experienced the ferocity of each of the animals. In the case of the bird, it was an eagle, and my body was forced into a position I would not normally have been able to support, with both arms pulled right back behind me and my body bent over forwards with my head pulled up. The other thing that really amazed me was when the bear struck the stone floor, or smashed into the stone walls I felt no pain. And when several of us were in the Tiger phase, there were times when I seriously thought they (we) would attack one another because of the anger that was being released. But the movements eventually began to cause harm to my body because they were so violent, so I lost my trust in the experience and stopped opening myself up to the energy.

Thank you Sudhamma, and my apologies for my absence. I have practised spontaneous movement Qigong, but to be honest I am a little confused as to the correct name for the form. The instructor who taught it to me has since changed his name and become an authorized Shaolin healing monk - using the same system he taught me. He called it 'The Golden Tablets 5 Elements Qigong'. He used to first draw the Qi in through the Baihui, then enter the state in which he could then 'charge up' his students either to heal them or assist in their MA practice. He was a Steel Wire Praying Mantis master, but apparently he was taught this technique by a grateful Sifu to whom he had lent his Temple school free of charge sometimes at the weekend when he wasn't using the facilities. In fact I had just wandered into the temple one day in order to watch how they trained. When he started 'charging up' his students, I received the energy, and when I returned home I found that I spontaneously entered into each of the 5 animals. When I told the Sifu what I had experienced the next day, he said we should see how I reacted when he actually charged me up. He was very surprised when once again I went through all five of the animals almost immediately - apparently this was unheard of, as it normally takes months or even years to get beyond the physical manifestation phase. After that he accepted me as an honorary student, although I did very little training alongside his students, other than assisting in 'charging them up' before they began their Gongfu training. But I disliked the fact that the energy would affect people around me, even involuntarily. At the time I was involved with Reiki and was working with quite a few sick people. I found that I could not avoid this energy entering them and activating them when they were supposed to be receiving a Reiki treatment. I realized that I was not able to fully close myself down once having opened myself up to the energy, and did not feel in control of it. In the temple I was able to charge up the other students just by being close to them, and I began to have serious doubts about the true source of the energy. So I stopped the practice. I should mention that there is another reason why I do not trust the energy. In 1987 I was a visit to Nam Yang Pugilistic Association in Singapore as part of a visiting team representing the UK in Shaolin forms competition. At one point, towards the end of the visit to Nam Yang a demonstration had been arranged by various other members of the Lion Dance association. One such demonstration involved a young bespectacled youth who we were told had never learned Gongfu. He knelt down and using his thumb began to massage his LDT (by the way is this what you meant by 'external massage'?). We were close enough to see his glasses misting up in the humidity and heat. After a while he began to move, but we could see that his eyes were closed. Following this we were witness to a display of the Five Animals that left all of us shaking. As he entered the state of each of the animals, his movements were accompanied by gutteral sounds which sounded so much like an animal that it sent shivers down our spines, especially when it came to the tiger and bear. I didn't understand at the time why following this, Master Tan Soh Tin grabbed hold of the young novice and severely reprimanded him for the demonstration. But when a few years later I was introduced to what I strongly suspect was the same energy, I realized why that young novice should probably not have demonstrated this Qigong in front of us. When moving through each of the animals the experience is extremely powerful, violent (aside from the deer, which is very gentle) and very frightening for the unprepared observer, especially back in 1987, when such things were unknown here in the western world. So anyway, it's just possible that this was one of my previous cultivation experiences which may have prepared me for developing the LDT movements such as those I have been describing. Just to touch on the subject of movements during Zhan Zhuang practice, I was remembering the first few years of my training with Kam Chuen Lam, and I do recall having great difficulty avoiding shaking all over until the Qi had begun to stabilize sufficiently. And I also recall that right at the beginning of our training we were taught to rock back and forth while in the Wuji posture (Wang Xiangzhai's version). This basically had the effect of massaging the Yongquan points of the feet, although Master Lam never fully explained why we should do this. But I could relate to this shifting of energy once I was in the 'holding the tree' posture, when a slight shift forward and backward of the hands either toward the body or away from it would cause one to be pushed forward or backward in the opposite direction to the movement - if that makes sense? No-one taught me to do that, I just used to feel tensions and releases and respond to them energetically. Master Lam said "I know what you're doing!". He didn't seem displeased, so I just continued experimenting. To get back to the subject of LDT movement, the more it goes, the more I realize that the key seems to be to initiate the movement using the eyes (physically rotating them). Being a physical movement it seems easier than trying to rely on the Yi to initiate the movement of the Qi in the dantiens. For some reason there seems to be an energetic link between the eyes and the LDT (well, actually even more so with the UDT, being so physically close to it). And I agree that the surrounding muscles seem to move along with the circulating Qi, in fact it is almost unavoidable, although with a great deal of concentration I can. In fact watching my own abdomen I am reminded of the way Yogis move the muscles of the lower abdomen. It looks and probably feels similar.

Thank you Sudhamma. I think I need to be clear that we are talking about the same thing. I admit that I had not read through all the previous posts when I posted my question, but one thing I just picked up on was the fact that this practice seems very intrinsic to the Chen Hunyuan system. I taught myself the Hunyuan 12 some time ago and practised the form for a few years. Although I learnt the form from a combination of written and video instruction which I found online, I picked up on the use of RAB which desñite not being mentioned in the written instructions it seemed pretty clear to me the this was what Master Feng Zhiqiang was doing in the videos. In any case I found myself naturally adopting this breathing when practising the Hunyuan 12 form. Interestingly I now suspect that the period during which I continued to practise the form I may have been doing the groundwork for what I am experiencing now. There are other neigong practices I haven't mentioned which doubtless further contributed to this development. However I feel rather uncomfortable with many posts in which people have described the use of forceful methods in order to get the LDT to rotate. I tend to feel that a more healthy approach would be to have the rotation occur as a natural result of the cultivation method one happens to be practising, as seems to have been the case with me. But I digress. I said that I wanted to be sure that we are talking about the same experience. Some posters have written describing the rotation of the LDT itself. Desñite the fact that I understand how a form such as the Hunyuan 12 could cause this to occur, it is not what I am talking about. That seems more akin to the rotating Falun from Falun Gong. What I am talking about is the feeling of rotations *inside* the LDT. I first became aware of this after some time practising an exercise I invented myself, part of which was rotating the Baihui, Huiyin and the physical eyes around an imaginary sphere in every possible direction. In fact it is far more involved than what I described, in that I started from the Baihui and worked down through every joint and vertebra right down to the toes. Then one day I began to feel an energetic link between these rotations and the LDT. Then I realised that when I rotated my eyes there was a corresponding sensation in the LDT, after which once I got down to the Huiyin I could really feel the internal movement very strongly. At times it would suddenly jump forward, and deliver power right to my fingertips during Yiquan practice. Then when I bought myself a Taiji ball and began practising with it the sensation in my LDT became more pronounced, and I could feel an energetic connection between the ball and the LDT. I learnt the Taiji ball exercises from Yang Jwingming's instruction videos along with my own intuition.I don't pay much attention to the phenomenon now, since my main practice is presently the Flying Phoenix Qigong until my health improves. But the sensation is always there, like a potential for Fajing for example. I don't know how else to describe it. So are we talking about the same thing?

A few posts back someone stated that the LDT Qi could only move in certain directions, and that aside from these this would lead to movements which were bad for the system. What I would like to contribute is that I think it depends what actually brought about this Qi rotation around the LDT. In my case I had been experimenting with physical rotation of the Baihui, when I noticed that shortly afterward I could feel a similar rotation happening within the LDT. Rotating the eyes or Huiyin had a similar effect. I found that after this all I need to do is think about it and the Qi will rotate within the LDT in whichever direction I desire. There are basically the following directions according to my experimentation: horizontal circling left/right, vertical circling and circling as though one were forming a circle directly in front of the LDT right and left. Then there are also other non circular directions such as left to right, as I was taught in Yiquan/Dachengquan martial practice, or front to back and back to front etc. I would be interested in hearing people's views on this phenomenon and these directions of movement. I would also like to hear from any of you who are able to explain how this practice might help with more profound/advanced inner cultivation practices.

Hi everyone, I would like to know which forms of spiritual cultivation exist aside from the Buddha Dharma practices to transform or negate negative karma? How do they achieve this? It has been explained to me that the Shaolin arts enable karma to be transformed, something which somewhat changed my point of view regarding the martial arts practiced by the Shaolin, so now I am wondering whether the Taoist martial practices are able to act in a similar way, or whether another method is used to reach the same end? David

Hi Pilgrim, May I ask you to explain whether it is possible to use Mantra to actually bring about an inner alchemical process - in Buddhist terms to unite the Nirmanakaya, Sambogakaya and Dharmakaya, or whether it acts only as a catalyst to the actual alchemical process - by opening up all the Chakras and Nadis, along with Pranayama practice (as a Buddhist/Vedic counterpart to the Daoist Neidan practice? If it is true that the only way to real enlightenment must involve this alchemical union in some shape or form, then I would like to understand how Mantra and Dharani Samadhi can achieve the same level of attainment? Having read this article, I am intrigued by the manner in which each tradition appears to be describing the same process in very different ways: http://lostsecretofimmortality.tumblr.com/

Thank you. The OP may have gone a bit off course, but no, I prefer to open a new thread for this, even though there have been some enlightening insights on this thread. The point is that the new thread will be directed toward those who are taking their first steps on the path. In fact that is probably what we should call the new thread- First steps on the path. Of course, you are free to rename this existing thread if you think it would provide any benefit. I am glad that it seems to have been of some interest at least to some of the contributors, and I am glad that it has given rise to so much debate, and I hope that it will coalesce into something useful for everyone who visits the thread.

I would like to extend my gratitude to everyone who has contributed to this and my other threads on the question of enlightenment. I would like to open a new thread in which I would like to invite those who are still in the process of awakening to speak of their insights and share their experience of the ongoing process. What I feel is that these conversations have provided the right conditions for me to begin to understand. Because I have found myself with my back to the wall and feeling naked and exposed and vulnerable in a way that would have been difficult to experience in different circumstances. And I would like to discuss the process I am going through as a result. To do so I do not want to muscle in on anyone else's thread nor impose my opinions or realisations on anyone else. I expect the same from you in turn if you decide to contribute. The object is to attempt to provide a blow by blow account of such realisations as they occur and keep it simple, so that the entire thread will serve others to enable them to understand the process with very little, if any reference to difficult to understand terminology. In another thread somebody asks: "Aren't we over-complicating things?" I think that question hits the nail right on the head. What I have read from most of you in your attempts to clarify the matter to others, in my opinion leads to too much of the intellect needing to become involved. It requires a certain intellectual capacity to even grasp what is being explained. But in my opinion if it cannot be explained in simple terms it must remain exclusive to the intellectually elite, rather than being the birthright of each of us - as Gautama Buddha said, every one of us has Buddha nature and so has the potential to become realised as a Buddha. The objective is by no means to make this a specifically Buddhism oriented thread, but please keep the Taoist terminology to an absolute minimum if you do want to participate. What I am unsure of is what to call the thread and where to post it - any ideas?

Sorry, but I think you have mixed the threads up. The title of this particular one is: Attainment of full enlightenment through Cultivation. As the terms 'enlightenment and 'cultivation' are common to several different traditions, this thread is neither directed toward Taoist nor Buddhist traditions specifically, as Dawai just pointed out, so there is no reason why one should take preference over the other - nor indeed why other traditions should not be included in the discussion - other than posts being steered in one direction or the other by the subsequent contributions. This is only to be expected when the site has a name like 'The Dao Bums', in which one would expect there to be a majority of Taoists, and in fact the inclusion of a Buddhist and Hindu section was a pleasant surprise. I apologise for the confusion - obviously there has to be some degree of cross-over between several different threads I started simultaneously - this is because I was asking different questions from different perspectives, yet all geared toward the overall subject of enlightenment or awakening to one's True Nature. I thought it would be a better approach than to start a single thread and include all my questions in that single thread, which has the potential to lead to chaos rather than clarity. However I am also finding it difficult to simultaneously keep track of all the threads I opened, so I quite understand how this confusion has come about.

Since you still don't get it, let me quote your contribution: OK, now let's imagine the scenario of someone visiting this thread in order to examine the question I raised. Please be honest with yourself at least, and ask yourself how relevant your post is to that person. Aside from the fact that it might possibly make someone laugh, is this really going to help them reach an understanding of whether or not the practice of Mantra and Dharani Samadhi is a skillful means to reach enlightenment? I would be embarrassed to have posted something as frivolous as that in answer to such a meaningful question, and I would either ask to have it removed or edit it in some way to reflect what I had learned from other people's reactions to that, rather than continue to find ways to defend my argument. Your attitude shows to what degree you are attached to your self importance - how can you possibly grow or learn from the opportunity these discussions afford us? You are taking my comments as a personal affront. I am simply defending the ability of this thread to act as a repository for valid information on the subject. Imagine that others start to follow suit and having perhaps listened to a guided meditation at some point in their life which made use of a mantra, they now decide that they feel qualified to contribute their experience to this thread. In no time people would have to wade through pages of trivial information and most probably give up before finding anything worth reading. This is what I want to avoid. I understand that Gautama Buddha had a highly developed sense of humour, and that humour plays a vital part in the expression of the awakened mind, but it has a time and place, and this does not seem the appropriate time and place for it, which is why I made the observation that your attitude was flippant. As I said, there is no-one saying you don't have the right to express yourself, but if you want to express something that does not directly contribute to a specific thread in a meaningful and constructive helpful way, then why not start a new topic or thread which will then attract other like minded people? Then you can happily discuss your experiences with others who share an interest in them. This seems a very reasonable request to me, and would be a respectful gesture on your part toward those who have genuinely come here in order to seek information on this subject.

You see, I simply was unable to see how your post contributed to my question. You need to ask in what way your own experience is relevant to the question I opened the thread to discuss, whereas you have flippantly sidetracked the issue in order to talk about yourself. What I would say is that if you really want to talk about your own experiences then please don't hijack this thread in order to do so. Think about starting your own thread please. This is what the moderator should have already told you, but since they have not, I have decided to step in order to avoid this thread being steered off course.

I answered this later on in the thread, but I am not sure you will find it. My answer is yes, of course. Thoughts engender vibration, they produce certain frequencies, don't they, which can be scanned and analysed? In fact there is obviously a direct correspondence between thoughts and their effect upon the body. When tension is produced through the mind, we feel it in the scalp, then it continues to accumulate until eventually it causes significant pain somewhere around the skull, unless we do something to address that tension. It then moves down to the neck muscles and enters the shoulders, eventually spreading everywhere. Also, you can hear your thoughts, and you can also hear other sounds mentally. If you think of a Mantra and you can imagine how it should sound, you should be able to also hear it mentally. Once you have practised a Mantra out loud, you will eventually hear it in your mind - that is one Samadhi method - the ability to continue to hear a given Mantra repeating continuously in your mind day and night. I consider it a minor achievement if not an actual attainment to reach the stage of simultaneously being able to mentally perform multitasking whilst practising this type of Samadhi. An example is try reading something whilst maintaining a fairly long Mantra constantly in mind. Or try practising Qigong, being aware of your entire body and all the sensations, and still maintain the Mantra going constantly. This is especially difficult when trying to perform a set of moving Qigong exercises that you have not yet fully committed to memory. Or try having a conversation and maintaining the Mantra constantly repeating - either in person or on the telephone. Believe me it is not easy, and perhaps what I find most difficult is raising the volume of the mental voice so that it is loud enough to be heard over and above the other noises around you and even within the body itself. Perhaps the easiest is when this involves engaging in something passive such as watching a video, because one need not be actively involved in the action of simply listening and viewing - but in this example you would be accomplishing at least three tasks simultaneously - a possible 4th task being that of also having a separate thought process regarding the video your are watching, which believe it or not I have actually experienced. I apologise if I went rather off the subject and got a little carried away. I hope I answered your question.

It was never my intention to create a polemic around this. I am happy to see that everyone now seems to be endeavouring to clarify the process, and also challenging those who claim to have already arrived at this reference point we are calling 'enlightenment', 'awakening', 'self realisation' or whatever. I feel that this is healthy, and gradually it seems that the answers are becoming more and more refined and more wisdom is being allowed to come through. However, one thing is clear. Once at that point most of you seem to be unable to relate to your previous state of dual consciousness and effectively bridge the gap for those yet to cross that hurdle. I have also identified a further issue which is apparent particularly in Awaken's attempts to explain her concept of 'method of no-method' - to paraphrase...it concerns the imposition of terminology specific to one's culture in an effort to communicate teachings to others not necessarily fully conversant with the terminology of that culture. Here we are not talking about studying Taoist or Buddhist texts in all their complexity. We are talking about the very basic issue of attending a lecture on Chinese Internal Martial Arts, Qigong, Neigong, TCM, Taoism or pretty much anything in any way related to these arts, and finding that most of the terminology must remain in Chinese (not only that, but in several cases in Kanji, which presupposes rather ambitiously that everyone else can also read Kanji), and it is assumed that everyone fully understands what these terms mean. Now you can say that anyone attending such lectures would be expected to have read up first, in order to prepare themselves, and so be conversant with the meaning of such terminology. But is this the case? I would say no. Because if these terms have not been translated it is due to the fact that these words have no equivalent in non Asian languages. Do you think I am mistaken? Sure you can replace the concept of Qi with a substitute such as energy, life force, electromagnetic energy (not correct, but still in common use) or even Prana. Fine, the idea of life force energy is common to most, if not all cultures, and most people have some understanding of the meaning even if they have not experienced Qi in any meaningful way. The same probably holds true for commonly used terms such as Yin and Yang. However can the same be said for more obscure terminology used by Awaken, such as Wu Wei, Taiji Wuji, Houtian, Neidan, Neigong, Fagong, Huagong or a whole host of similarly specific Taoist or Buddhist terminology? I would say not. And aside from those who have afforded themselves the opportunity to study Chinese and then study Taoism or whichever form of cultivation in Chinese, everyone else has to rely on translations and transliterations of words and concepts in most cases totally foreign to the the culture and language of the translator. Additionally most of those involved in such translations have been totally ignorant of the subject matter, or specialised in fields other than those they are actually working on. I am aware that this is starting to change, but what I do know is that Chinese ideograms contain so much more information than any Western language, and there will therefore be a range of possible words to chose from to provide the most accurate translation or transliteration. How do you know that the translator got it right? Perhaps once having become awakened there will be perceptions available to you to help considerably in this process, but what about everyone else? One has to look no further than the awful erroneous translations which abound in translations from Hebrew to Latin, Greek and subsequently English and other Western languages when translating the Bible - an almost universally recognised authoritative text for the Christian faith - in order to understand the devastating results that can arise from this. How much more so with such an utterly foreign culture as that of the Chinese or Indian? I would posit that the very same is true in the case of Sanskrit or Pali, when speaking in terms of Buddhism. I am reading through both treatises on Buddhism and translations of the Buddha Sutras, and every other word is in Pali or Sanskrit, and requires reading through a Pali dictionary in order to understand what each term means. This, in addition to the element of energetic transmission, is why I hold the opinion that far more can be achieved through personal interaction with a teacher than through books. Yet, as we all know, the arena is filled with charlatans, and those with any lesser attainment are ill equipped to discern whether they are genuine or not. It is a Catch 22 situation in most cases. Perhaps some of you will feel that I am making a mountain out of a molehill, but what I am trying to do is make those of you who have already found your way aware of the pitfalls and difficulties the rest of us face. I wonder. I there is anyone here capable of explaining this without reference to one single term in Chinese? Think about it. We are talking about an endeavour which belongs to a specific philosophy - Taoism. There, we've already used a Chinese term...You think you can explain it? Doesn't the very Daodejing state that the Tao which can be described is not the true Tao? But wait a moment, now we have introduced a new word and concept - Tao, and another, the Daodejing - both Chinese and similarly complicated to really translate correctly. Now you try...

You see, this is what makes the Taoist path so difficult to comprehend, especially for the western mind. It is inscrutable. No matter how much I have read, such as the Yijing, Daodejing etc., it remains the same. These sages are making declarations based upon their own understanding, from their enlightened perspective. Most of you are doing the same. But how does that help someone who is unable to understand or grasp the real meaning behind the words? Is that the fault of the student or the communicator? To my mind a great teacher is one who is capable of expounding great truths with simplicity in such a way as to make that information available and comprehensible to anyone, as well as being able to teach on different levels using the same words, according to the level of those who are hearing them. Taking myself as an example, I think I have a pretty good grasp of English, it is my own language after all. Yet those who have translated or transliterated these texts have done so in such a way as to convey very little meaning to me. Unless I were able to read and understand the original texts in Mandarin Chinese - and I believe that to most Chinese this is just as difficult a task - I have no way of knowing to what degree the original meaning has been conveyed in the translation. But I wonder how many of you are being honest when you say you really understand what is being said. To put this another way: let us imagine that someone totally ignorant of this or any other tradition comes across Taoism in their search for wisdom, truth or whatever. Do you believe that these words would have any real meaning to them? Do you think that this would provide such a person with anything more than a tenuous flowery, perhaps poetic impression to guide them along the path? Elsewhere in another thread someone spoke of the necessity to put these ideas into the modern vernacular, to make them fit in with the world we actually live in. I suppose that is really what I am trying to get at. Honestly reading some of your posts it is like being confronted with a serious of Koans, anyone of which may have the potential to bring about enlightenment, but also may well not provide the right conditions. I think perhaps the subject is so nebulous that it really cannot be explained in any straightforward and fully comprehensible language. OK, I get it, it cannot be grasped or understood by the mind. So what else is there?

I would like to ask the following: 1. What lies beyond enlightenment? 2. What different levels of enlightenment exist which are accessible to a human being? 3. What is the difference between these levels? 4. What is the difference between the elightenment achieved through the practice of Buddha Dharma and that achieved through Taoist Cultivation practices? 5. What are the advantages and disadvantages of each of these approaches? 6. Is there any spiritual relationship between Buddha Dharma and Taoist Cultivation practice?

Would you mind being more specific? If you are talking about quoting from the Buddha Sutras, unfortunately I am unable to comply at the moment due to technological limitations, other quotes I have made are most likely from memory. But I take your point. Thank you

I see no real need to respond to your jibe. If you are interested, then check out my other posts. If that is all you have gleaned, then that is your problem, I am not going to reduce myself to your level. You sound rather pompous and conceited to me. I wish you well.

I agree that now it is a hindrance, and as I also said, it also caused me a great deal of suffering - or perhaps better stated 'dis-consolation (is there such a word?)' when I became a Christian and compared my spiritual experiences with that. Of course everything fell far short of that experience. But still, one key point is that my impression which I have been able to put in writing arose from that experience. And it was an experience, not merely imagined. But then again all you say regarding the way in which it subsequently limits my interactions with teachers, teachings etc., is quite true. Except that I am not obliged to use that experience as a yardstick for every situation, and in fact I do not. It is only my personal yardstick for the experience of oneness, non dualistic being or whatever you want to call it - Union with the Absolute... I admit to a certain amount of clinging to that experience, but I would not say that it makes me think I actually 'know' anything. The more I learn, the more I realise how little I know. --- Another similarity in our experiences. In my teens I did a significant amount of experimentation with various hallucinogenic substances, not only mushrooms. I would also consider myself well read on most subjects from the metaphysical to the mystical, but once in my 20's I became more and more involved in Chinese martial arts and Qigong/Neigong practices etc,, whilst also developing my skills as a musician. However I was always severely hampered by ill-health and still am. I will be 60 this year. But unlike you, I have remained in my dualistic reality. --- Thank you for providing insight as to the organic experience, it helps put my own experience in perspective, which is actually encouraging. You are asking whether any effort was required on my part during the experience i described? My answer would be no, none whatsoever as far as I recall. But the euphoria was incredibly strong. I felt no need to resist anything I was experiencing, I simply accepted it and surrendered myself to it entirely. The only effort was in allowing myself to return to a 'normal' state afterwards - I simply did not want to allow that bliss to slip away. Incidentally regarding my description of the nectar dripping onto my tongue...I have also experienced this through a technique into which I was personally initiated by Guru Maharaji back in the 80's, it was simply called 'Knowledge'. I was a form of Raja Yoga which involved blocking out the 5 senses. I experienced that the first time I practised the technique. This was some time before my mushroom assisted experience.

I am inclined to agree up to a point. The general consensus is that at this time there are probably no more than 100 awakened people in the world. Of those I imagine there are very few who feel the need to advertise the fact either online or anywhere else. After all, the ego is one of the first things to go The Daodejing also warns against those who take on lofty titles, and there is a definite lack of humility among those who proclaim themselves to be this or that. However, the fact that there are and have been those who have awakened to their True Nature by following the Buddha Dharma is the proof that Gautama Buddha's method delivers what he promised it would. One important thing to take on board is the fact that not every Buddha teaches Dharma. A PratyekaBuddha for example can certainly help others on their journey towards enlightenment but does not actually teach as such. There is no hard and fast rule that says one has to strive toward the goal of becoming a fully realised Buddha who desires only the liberation of all beings and is committed to work ceaselessly to teach the Buddha Dharma. Another thing of which I am mindful is that anyone or anything might be a Buddha. In the Sutras Gautama says that a Buddha is able to manifest in whichever form or state of being he finds necessary in any of the realms of existence in order to disseminate the Buddha Dharma of that age. Not only that, but he also states that the Dharma can also appear within any tradition, religion or philosophy - according to the level of attainment and need of the individual he desires to bring to the Dharma. One example explains why the different vehicles of Buddha Dharma exist, and why the Mahayana school is nevertheless the supreme teaching. So it is very likely that the Buddha Dharma could manifest through Taoist Dharma or Vedanta or Sanatana Dharma or whatever, without contradiction. That said I draw the line at the Abrahamic religions, because they simply lack all credibility as far as I am concerned, as they seem bereft of an true Dharma in their doctrine. This also creates a sort of chicken and egg dichotomy, because if we are to take on board what Gautama claims, he pre-existed every manifestation of Dharma in his previous manifestations as a Buddha. So it is quite possible that even the sages of the most ancient Taoist traditions are no more than previous manifestations of Buddha themselves. This is pure conjecture on my part, but it does seem plausible to me, especially having studied the Lotus Sutra, and it would also explain the similarities that exist between Taoist philosophy and Buddha Dharma. Does this resonate with anyone else?

Karma is what it is, but it is not necessarily due to one's own actions or transgressions against Universal Law. All I know is that I have suffered a great deal as a result of the Karma I have taken on in this lifetime, but I am not trying to escape from it. I asked how to transform this Karma. You obviously have a very limited idea about the way the Law of Karma functions. It is Karma from past lives or Karma one has agreed to bear for others that I am talking about. This is also what manifests as pain, suffering and other hindrances in the present, not only what one is doing or thinking or saying in the present moment. If it were as easy as 'doing the dishes' as you say, or 'chopping wood' as someone else quoted me, then why would I have needed to start this thread? It's easy to be smug when one is not suffering and when one lacks the compassion to understand the suffering of others and the desire to help them in compassionate selfless service.