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I would like to thank you all for the wisdom contained in the content of your replies. It has given me much to consider - mull over, ponder over. My wife is unwell so I am unable to reply to each post as I have been in other threads, but I will put your efforts to good use, and I will keep watching these threads for more treasures.

Would you care to explain your reference to my 'putting the cart before the horse' in the last paragraph please, or at least give me a more specific reference to go on? And would you care to share how you went about recreating your experience organically - I presume that is what you meant? And may I ask in hindsight - how far removed was your previous experience from the organic version? I suppose I am also asking how far removed my description of my experience is from your organic experience .

Samsara is the Buddhist term which means being bound to the wheel of rebirth, it is the world of delusion to which we are chained by our dualistic perceptions until we become realised and attain Nirvana - liberation from Samsara. In Samsaric existence we are also subject to the Law of Karma - cause and effect, and this is what causes us to continue to be reborn in the different realms and endless different forms until we desire to become liberated and freed from suffering and ignorance. Thank you for clarifying that. No doubt from an enlightened or already awakened perspective one can speak in terms of the method which is 'no method'. Gautama Buddha also speaks in similar terms. But this concept is difficult for the un-awakened mind to grasp, because it is still stuck within the illusion of duality. In a way I think I do understand what you mean, yet I also understand that conceptual understanding will get me nowhere - this has to be experienced in order to truly understand. I have read much of your material, but I still cannot grasp the meaning fully. There are obscurations which cloud my ability to perceive everything with clarity.

Samsara is the Buddhist term which means being bound to the wheel of rebirth, it is the world of delusion to which we are chained by our dualistic perceptions until we become realised and attain Nirvana - liberation from Samsara. Thank you for clarifying that. No doubt from an enlightened or already awakened perspective one can speak in terms of the method which is 'no method'. Gautama Buddha also speaks in similar terms. But this concept is difficult for the un-awakened mind to grasp, because it is still stuck within the illusion of duality. In a way I think I do understand what you mean, yet I also understand that conceptual understanding will get me nowhere - this has to be experienced in order to truly understand. I have read much of your material, but I still cannot grasp the meaning fully. There are obscurations which cloud my ability to perceive everything with clarity.

That is your assumption, but not necessarily true. You see I am capable of changing and growing through the quality of some of the answers I receive, and my perception therefore shifts accordingly. I may be ignorant but I am asking questions in order not to remain in ignorance. This is not a linear progression. Absolutely I strongly suspect that many are hoodwinked into believing that others have experienced a profound complete awakening when in fact as you say, they have merely taken the abilities conferred by the attainment of siddhis or other such relatively minor attainments as a measure of their spiritual attainment. I have never been to India, but we all know that there Gurus and fakirs are to be found on every street corner. Fakirs are no more than an equivalent to our street magicians here in the West. Thank you - a further verification of the fact that what one may at first be convinced to have been a major shift in consciousness is in retrospect only a single footstep on the path. Thank you, these are all important considerations. In pretty much any tradition we are at the mercy of our need to interpret concepts and language with words which have no equivalent in our language. I am absolutely sure that without learning Mandarin my understanding of the teachings of any of the Chinese traditions would be entirely dependent upon someone else's translation and interpretation. As you say, these interpretations are then also subject to whatever baggage the translator happens to be carrying with them, from whatever source. Myself I prefer the description of the 'Absolute' or the Creator, but of course these are all names which convey concepts about that which is beyond our ability to grasp or conceive of. This is why enlightenment has to be the only goal worth achieving, because it is the only way to truly experience the Self as it is, beyond the limits of our perception. Well, I see where you are coming from, but that is not my perspective nor my premise. The way I see it, we are all already perfect Buddhas, but our identification with this dualistic reality will not allow us to perceive it as Truth - as our True Nature. Good and evil don't come into it from that perspective. I am not saying that Karma does not obscure the Truth from us. But the real difficulty is in going beyond the conceptual understanding and actually experiencing non duality. That is a huge step for anyone to take. I have never met such a human being. For some it may be that the Universe has created the perfect timing of a large Burp just after drinking a relatively cheap beer in a slimy joint - for another it may be years of a particular meditation practice and for others it might be in the midst of some horrible event. Yes, well stated. But despite being aware of the illusory nature of everything it remains a concept of the dualistic mind. Once you have grasped that and awakened to it as an experience which you fully embody (or not, lol) it must be difficult to remember what it was like before that shift in consciousness. Granted, it can just happen, provided the conditions are right, otherwise there needs to be some form of method in order to bring about the right conditions for awakening to come about. That is what this thread is discussing. Well in case I didn't make myself clear, that is precisely what my posts are for - I am looking for assistance in finding which methods are able to provide the right conditions for awakening to the reality of existence. I am also asking which of the methods which claim to provide the right conditions actually do so.

Yes, you and I have much in common there, I also practised Kriya Yoga. But I found my Guru to be so pompous and out and out racist (against the British) that I ended up seriously doubting his authority to pass on this tradition with integrity, but he certainly loved the adulation from all the Indian devotees! I am fascinated by the way Gautama seems to have rejected certain key aspects of Vedanta yet incorporated so much of the terminology and hierarchical groups from the different realms - even Brahma. But what is most revealing is that God is never mentioned, in the Vedic sense of the Absolute Parabrahman or whatever. Even the mantras and dharanis are in many ways similar, and there can be no doubt of Gautama having previously been a devotee before leaving his father's kingdom. So we need to ask ourselves how it was that none of the traditions whose practices he perfected led him to the goal he sought? For example reading the writings of Yogananda, Kriya Kundalini Yoga could be easily seen as leading to paranirvana, yet obviously this was not the case for Gautama. So was his practice at fault? Or was the practice as he said only capable of leading to partial enlightenment? There is little mention of the level of attainment which Gautama had already reached through his years of ascetic practice in the company of the Jain ascetics who were eventually to become his first disciples, but I would conjecture that he had already reached an extraordinary level of cultivation in order to continue to survive through that gruelling practice.

No harm done, thank you for your acknowledgement With respect, you can of course base your comments upon what these people tell you, but "it takes a Buddha to know one", as they say - until you are enlightened you are not in a position to determine whether in truth these people are actually in fact enlightened, nor can you I determine to what degree, if indeed they are enlightened. I have been duped so many times by charlatans, because it is not difficult to obtain a few siddhis and fool people by your use of the abilities thus gained. But this is appealing to the dualistic mind. Outside of the enlightened state everything is perceived within the duality of our unenlightened consciousness. In order to try and give a clearer explanation, there is a very simple analogy which is not my own invention: if you want to know what something tastes like, however much you ask as many culinary experts to explain the taste to you, you will never know what it tastes like until you taste it yourself. The same can be said for asking someone else to experience or describe the experience of enlightenment to you. Try as they might it is just not possible. But at least in the case of the former analogy it is relatively simple to verify whether or not the person who claims to be a culinary expert is or not, because you can authenticate their claims quite easily. But how can you authenticate or verify the extent of another person's enlightenment experience. The only possible way to do so is to observe their behaviour and the fruit of their transformation - but you are observing it from the perspective of dualistic mind, so your perceptions will be false! This is precisely the problem I am experiencing. I have had several people who claim to be enlightened offer me distinct paths to enlightenment, but I like you have only my own dualistic senses to guide me along with my intuition and truth sense, and all these arise from an unenlightened consciousness. This is why it is so easy for charlatans to dupe and con so many people out of their money. Just look at how many are claiming to be Qigong Grand Masters (living) and even just Masters...believe me, it is no easier to discern which of them is genuine before attaining some degree of mastery oneself, and that might take a considerable amount of time and could cost a great deal more than you counted on. When I say without limits I am paraphrasing and interpreting the words of Gautama Buddha, but if you read my previous post I go into a little more detail as to why I made that point. But yes, full enlightenment may beyond the conditions of any vehicle - but my point is that it is mere conjecture on our part rather than experiential. It's good to obtain a little feedback regarding that post, and I hope you are correct - and I too sincerely wish you every success in your endeavours. Yes, but please don't put words in my mouth. I never said that mantra "merely leads to concentration". Read my above posts carefully regarding the vibrational and resonant qualities of both Mantra and Dharanis. I think I made my position clear. I am not a Christian, but I do concede that all the religious doctrines of the world hold an element of Universal Truth, however obscure. One of these Truths I believe may be found in the description of the 'Word' which according to the Abrahamic religions is what created all things. According to the Vedas "Om" was precisely the Word which gave life to all things, and Om is known as the MahaMantra for that very reason - the highest Mantra. Mantras have or provide a direct connection with certain universal archetypes which are identified variously as deities, gods, devas or some other description, and these are beings with immense power. When one ingests a hallucinogen or has the sort of experience I was describing in my previous post, one is exposed to these archetypes, which can be absolutely terrifying if one has not developed sufficient mastery of the mind. This is the stuff of the worst bad trip imaginable. But my point is that mantras are powerful in and of themselves, they are not to be limited to a mere mechanism to get from point A to B in consciousness, although in one sense this is also true. Another way to view a mantra might be as a highly condensed form of the consciousness of the being associated with it. The language is also important. Sanskrit and Pall are both very unique languages due to the quality of the sounds. In one sense Sanskrit could be thought of as the mother tongue of all languages. Interestingly one can use the science of Cymatics in order to verify which of the world's existing languages have this resonant quality. It shows that not all languages do. For those who still doubt the power of vibration, I recommend doing a search on Youtube or elsewhere for Tibetan Singing Bowls. Look for a video which shows the effect of playing such a bowl filled with water.You will be surprised when you see it. There are also larger versions from different parts of Asia such as Japan, which have handles which are rubbed to create a similar effect. The water actually leaps out of the bowl as a result of the effect of the resonant frequency of the bowl upon the water. A search for 'Cymatics' will also provide a broader view of the subject of vibration from a more scientific perspective.

I agree up to a point, it is possible to say that, but saying something does not necessarily carry any real weight unless the person who happens to be making such an assertion is a sufficiently credible source, but is it then possible to say with certainty that this practice cannot serve to bring about the desired effect without having without having experienced such an awakening as a result? Yes, but only if it is being considered from the perspective of a sufficiently profound level of enlightenment. I really disagree that one should be able to differentiate between enlightenment as it occurs in different traditions, provided that what they bring about is true enlightenment - enlightenment is realization of our True Nature and the True Nature of all things. That state of consciousness is permanent and unchanging - the permanent found within the impermanent. Therefore the only differentiation is likely to occur in lesser states of awakening which are often mistaken for the state of full enlightenment. I think this is probably the issue here. However there is a further issue which does differentiate between the different traditions, and that is that Gautama Buddha himself stated that there was no other means to obtain liberation from Samsara and the wheel of rebirth other than the Noble Eightfold Path, the Dharma which all Buddhas teach. I feel it is important to consider whether the term 'Buddha' or 'Buddhahood' is restricted to the Buddhist religion or is it instead as Gautama said universal regardless of the form it takes. The objective is not to seek Immortality or to remain in embodiment in physical form, whereas it is my understanding that most other traditions do not seek such total liberation. Many are content to be reborn in the Devic planes or other such or be reborn as gods, but according to the Buddha Dharma even these are impermanent and illusory. Reading what is said in the Suttras one comes to understand why even the gods and devas knelt before Gautama in reverance and came to listen and learn from the Buddha Dharma. Is there anything higher than the Buddha Dharma? I don't know, but are there any other traditions which can claim to teach how to liberate oneself totally? I don't know that either. I am here to learn.

That mantra (also spoken as Om Ah Hum Vajra Guru Pema Siddhe Hung) is from Tibetan Buddhist doctrine and it is precisely what I was talking about in another post. You are taking refuge in the Lama as the Guru. This really has nothing to do with authentic Buddha Dharma, and is nowhere near as powerful as the simple 6 fold mantra Om Mani Padme Hum (not Hung as pronounced by Tibetan Buddhists). Not surprising then that all it did was provide you with the sort of experience you describe. But then again if you are happy with lucid dreaming then each to his own.

I am a he, and my name is David. You accuse my logic of being corrupt - I don't feel that was really called for, but I am not about to let that affect me. You say enlightenment isn't omniscience. That too is a fallacious statement, because if you read the Buddha Suttras, the enlightenment Gautama Buddha describes is without limit. You however are placing limits upon this attainment without presumably having attained enlightenment yourself? therefore your argument is presented within your own experiential framework. And if you have experienced some degree of enlightenment, the limitation you place upon your perception which is presumably passing through the filter of your enlightened state is indicative of the fact that it is no where near full enlightenment, thus you are in no position to judge what enlightenment is or is not, and this is also why you are reacting in this way to my request. Does that sound logical? That is precisely why I said that I am not interested in opinions. As far as I am concerned, if someone is truly enlightened, they become inseparable from Truth, and as such are able to identify that which is Truth and that which is not Truth (without attachment or clinging to whether it is Truth or not Truth). So unless one has come to that point I feel that the only thing they can offer is their opinion based upon their own experience and understanding. In such a state they are in no condition to judge whether any Dharma is or is not Truth. Incidentally my own glimpse of the enlightened state showed me that enlightenment is indeed omniscient. If one ceases to experience the separative consciousness, then what do you think the expression of being is which remains if not omniscient? Do you not believe that Tao is omniscient? What is not Tao? I have no difficulty with regard to concentration, or at least I know how to concentrate. But that is no more than the first step on the path, the pinnacle of which is supreme enlightenment, or liberation from Samsara. And yes, I am trying to make sure that my remaining time is not wasted, or to put it another way that my efforts are expended in the right direction to enable me to achieve my potential during this lifetime. So I am doing my best to intelligently sort the wheat from the chaff.

Some of your answers have been very convincing and instructive, however I think that it is obvious that each person has their own view based upon their own experiences and level of attainment, and pretty much every online forum is the same. So let's be clear. I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings, but I am really not interested in opinions. I asked a very specific question. The only way anyone can truthfully answer in the affirmative is if they have actually experienced awakening as a direct result of practising Mantra and Dharani repetition and attainment of Samadhi. Equally if you are stating that this is not a skillful means to such attainment you need to demonstrate the fact with more than just conjecture or opinion. If you are enlightened and you can explain precisely why this practise cannot lead to a similar state of awakening to that which you are experiencing, then I would l like you to explain this to me please. I am not attached to this or any other practice, but if I continue to practise as I am being advised to it will require most of my time and every ounce of my effort and I need to know that this will bear fruit, and fruit of the right kind. For my part I can say that the practice seems to produce certain specific effects within a very short space of time, so I am in no doubt as to these being powerful practices, and the ability to maintain a constantly repeating mantra in mind whilst simultaneously engaging in other activities - mental and physical multi-tasking is no doubt a useful skill - it really surprised me to find that I was capable of reading something totally different whilst maintaining a relatively complicated mantra constantly repeating, and be able to also think in parallel! I found that it also greatly enhanced my Qigong/Neigong Cultivation and physical strength and stamina, as well as resistance to pain and discomfort. If you have never practised this type of Samadhi, try watching a video while maintaining even a short mantra constantly repeating in your mind - now add subtitles and try reading them. after that allow yourself to think about either the video or the mantra simultaneously. Or try having a conversation with someone or driving whilst keeping the mantra going in your mind. Then you will have some idea of the concentration this requires, and the kind of skill set you are likely to develop from such a practice. Now imagine doing the same with entire Dharanis...this is what is required of me if I am to pursue this path, so it is not to be taken lightly - it is going to require a considerable sustained effort on my part, and I need to know that this will be time spent wisely. I also want to confirm whether what I have been told can be achieved through the practice is true, which is basically anything from Arhanthood through complete Buddhahood - basically any level of enlightenment. By the way, once you become adept at this, it becomes too easy to think simultaneously whilst keeping the mantra constantly repeating in one's mind, then I feel it is somewhat taking a step backwards, as the mantra no longer serves to silence the mind once it becomes more or less automatic. However I am certainly not at the point at which the same can be said of my Dharani repetition

Thank you for the clarification. So it is the Yang aspect of the Shen which is immortal - is this the actual vehicle into which the consciousness transfers itself, or something else? Please correct me if I am wrong - the process you are describing is the purification of the Jing Qi and Shen culminating in the creation of the immortal embryo/vehicle? So why are the Taoist Immortals so prominent throughout so many Chinese traditions, and why are there so many people who worship them? Are you saying that they do not exist? What about the Longmen Pai, Mo Pai and other such sects who claim to have immortals among them?

Did you write this before or after my previous post? I think it would be obvious that I base everything upon practice - many years of it in fact. However there is fruitful practice and practice that bears little fruit, and this is to some extent conditioned by who or what we learn from. In my case much of my practice has been without much reward compared to the effort expended, and some of this is down to the quality of those who taught me, (and that in turn is probably down to my own lack of De - virtue). However, now that I am soon to reach 60 years of age, I consider that it is the moment to make the most of whatever time I have left to make sure that what I learn will have a beneficial effect upon my health and my spiritual growth. Nothing is wasted, I realize that, because one can learn from every experience, however it must be said that there are a great many charlatans and would be masters profiting from the westerner's ignorance and gullibility, either leaving them with an incorrect or otherwise distorted practice, which at best gives them very little and at worst actually can have a very negative effect upon their health and well being. The latter worse case scenario has unfortunately been the case for me for the most part. It is all well and good to be told "Be your own master!", but that is easier said than done, and practising Neigong cultivation in such a way can easily lead to serious deviations - as I learnt the hard way.

Well, to defend my point regarding Tibetan Buddhism, their belief in reincarnation is distinct from the idea of rebirth that Gautama Buddha taught, because reincarnation implies that there is a soul entity which continuously reincarnates with the same consciousness but in different forms within the different kingdoms, throughout however many lifetimes one continues to be in Samsaric existence - this concept flies in the face of the idea of rebirth which Gautama taught, along with the Anatta - no-soul doctrine which sets Buddhism apart from every other religion. Then there is the subject of the various lineages of the Tulku (reincarnated) Lamas. My own experience was with the Karma Kagud'pa lineage, and I can assure you it is not the same to take refuge in a Lama as taking refuge in the Buddha, the Dharma and the Sangha. The Lama is set up as the Guru in the same way as one accepts a Guru to be an earthly incarnation of a specific deity - a concept also foreign to Gautama Buddha's teachings, and in the case of the Dalai Lama supposedly a reincarnation of Gautama himself. One performs prostrations directly to the Lama as one's Guru and receives transmissions from him. All of this is borrowed from the Vedic traditions and as far as I am aware has absolutely nothing to do with what Gautama taught, even if he did incorporate many of the same deities and other beings as well as much of the same terminology as that found in Vedanta. Then for further corroboration you need look no further than the energetic practices they perform such as G'Tummo, which have no parallel in other Buddhist traditions outside perhaps the Chinese Buddhist sects such as those of Ch'an Buddhism for example, but it is obvious that here again there has been a mixture of Buddhism with pre-existent Taoist Cultivation practices. Again, these energetic practices (of the Tibetan Buddhists) employ pranayama and work with Kundalini, both of which come from Vedanta, not Buddhism.

Yes, he did, but I think it would be better to read the context in which he mentioned it, as my explanation may not be sufficiently in depth, so here you are: "I was able to take my philosophical idea of the true identity of the not-Nothing to another level which began with me demonstrating it scientifically. The way I did it was by translating the not-Nothing into that which is both something and nothing, i.e. the Tao. What I did was build a working model of the Tao. I was aided in this by the fact that during the Awakening I became the Tao. Then all I really had to do was reverse engineer it. The machine I built exhibited a motion that was unknown to both mathematics and physics. Based on that I was allowed to name the motion I discovered Omnidirectional Oscillation. Because the machine I built to prove this motion exists had no prior art and the motion no mention in the history of math and physics the patent office honored me by naming the gear that copies the motion of the Tao, the Glover Gear. It’s US pat number 4757722 if you want to look it up. Or you can see a photocopy of the patent and a video of it in operation on my Quora blog: Possibility." If you want to check out his credentials: https://www.quora.com/profile/Marvin-Glover Hope you find this useful, and it would be useful to me to obtain further feedback about this from the rest of you. It seems unlikely that he could have falsified his credentials, and this is what made me wonder if what he is saying is more than delusion. If you read his story I have no doubt that you will find it absolutely preposterous, but not everyone can claim to have been able to model the Tao , and if he really has managed to create such a device, that speaks to me someone of beyond average intellectual capacity. He does however seem very attached to the necessity to have his enlightened status recognized, and that rings warning bells too... David

I have practiced a considerable amount of Neigong - I presume what you mean is Neidan Gong? And to my mind there is little difference between Zhan Zhuang standing meditation and sitting meditation. Where the differences start to appear within different traditions is in the breathing and MCO exercises. As far as I am aware, the focus on the breath is pretty similar between the Taoist and Buddhist cultivation methods, but the MCO is not part of the Buddha Dharma tradition, and this is a major difference, because although the MCO happens perfectly naturally along the Water path, it does not naturally follow the Fire Path without intervention, and as far as the Buddhist tradition is concerned any such intervention will corrupt the purity of the transformation taking place, if I understand it correctly. I also believe that the cultivation of the pearl of refined Qi and its subsequent condensation at the Dantien is foreign to the Buddhist approach - specifically outside Chinese Buddhism which as we know incorporated a significant amount of Taoist practice into the tradition, especially the Ch'an schools. "There is nothing to talk about", point taken - it is about experiencing. But we are taking baby steps here in order to understand this process...

Sorry, but you seem to have a rather limited view of what Mantras are and how they work. It is more a question of vibration. The sound or tone of the Mantra (or Dharanis which contain multiple chains of such Mantras) actually set up a vibration, and it is this which produces a powerful resonant effect within the different vehicles - principally the Nirmanakaya and Sambogakhaya - left and right side energies - and begin to purify the entire being of the practitioner. As others have said, these are also directly connected to specific deities, which could also be thought of as archetypes of the mind in its different states of consciousness. These are very much more than just a reset button. Furthermore, it is not simply a case of repetition. Samadhi is only achieved once the Mantra or Dharani constantly repeats itself in one's mind day and night. Only then can one move onto repeat the process with another Mantra or Dharani. This has both positive and negative effects and can be extremely uncomfortable from my short experience with this form of cultivation. You may want to research the science of Cymatics or Kymatics to gain further understanding about these vibrational frequencies as reflected upon different materials, from water through sand. Interestingly each vowel sound manifests with a specific form within different media. A good start is the MahaMantra 'Om'. It is very interesting to observe the energy blueprint the sound produces, especially in sand.

Thank you. Yes, the Usnisa Dharani is one of the aspects of Vajrapani, this is the main focus of my practice, actually the wrathful aspects to be more precise, to be followed by the MahaCundi Mantras and Dharanis to enter more into the heart/compassion rather than the forma pure Vajra destructive practices. So why do you say that in your opinion there is no chance of such cultivation practices leading to enlightenment/Buddhahood? Since several of you have shown an interest in these Dharanis, I thought I would post a link to this site, which you may find useful: https://medium.com/vajra-resources/vajrapani-98d2fbb7d37c Blessings

Are you saying that the path of the immortal is the same as the path of liberation from Samsara? I disagree, because I fail to see how the desire to be immortal can be perceived as being free from craving or equate to the desire to no longer experience rebirth in physical form. There must be a method - it doesn't just happen by itself. There must be some form of technique. Purification of the mind involves technique, purification of the Qi and Jing require techniques, cultivation of the Shen and condensed pearl and creation of the Immortal foetus all require techniques - none of these happen by themselves as far as I am aware...so please elucidate. David

Hello again, SeekerOfHealing. An excellent way to begin! First of all, I regard enlighenment as experiential. I have had a taste of it, but was led to doubt it somewhat, due to the fact that I had the experience under the stimulus of a drug induced state. In fact it was a single psilocybin mushroom, but nevertheless. despite the profound nature of the experience, only the memory remained. Also, rather than positively enriching my life, it created further clinging, as I could not help comparing any subsequent spiritual experience with that of my drug induced experience. This has led to deep suffering and many inner conflicts on many different levels. Perhaps it may help if I provide more detail of that experience, as I continue to regard it as forming at least a part of my eventual awakening: First of all, as you may or may not be aware each small psilocybin mushroom has an unknown potency. As a clinician explained to me having overdosed on them in my misspent youth - a single mushroom may have the potency of hundreds or even thousands, and there is no way to gauge this in advance. So with that adjunct, here is a summary of what I remember of that experience. I remember a change in my perception of light first of all - everything coalesced into a golden light, and I perceived without needing to open my eyes. Then I became aware of the Baihui (Sahasrarachakra). I had the impression that I was perceiving everything from several different spacial references simultaneously. One of these was from directly above my body. I was able to look down through the BaiHui into myself, and as I did so, I felt nectar dripping onto my tongue. I could taste it, and as I did so I lost the sense of 'I'. I experienced only a non emotional energy I would call 'love'. I had an awareness that this was all there is, and that it was this energy from which life itself sprung. I was able to experience the changes in my own body, even though it felt one with everything everywhere. I found myself recalling events in my life, and understanding why everything was as it was, and the relevance of each experience. I understood that this being was eternal, without beginning or end and outside of the dimension of time. I had no idea that the entire night had passed, but as I began to 'come out of it' I experienced a terrible sense of loss as I realized that although the memory of most of the experience would remain with me, I would not remain in that state of consciousness. I felt that this was why I had experienced depression since my childhood. I had a knowing that I had always remembered having been this consciousness in which there was no separation - no separateness from anything else. Yet now once again I had returned to my everyday separate perception, But since then I realized that this must be our natural state, to exist with no perception of separateness from that which created us, and this became my goal to make that consciousness permanent and reside in that state of being throughout all eternity. Well, I don't know whether any of you will acknowledge my experience to have been any sort of valid reflection of what enlightenment might be, or how the process of awakening might begin, but perhaps at least you will find it enjoyable reading. OK, so that was my experiential description, so now on to the conceptual view of what enlightenment may be... My conceptual understanding is that enlightenment or awakening is a state of consciousness in which the mind is no longer fettered by any of the restrictions or impositions in the way we normally perceive reality - that is to say through the filter of our sense perceptions. These perceptions are responsible for our having the false perception that we are separate from everything else, that there is an experiencer or an observer. At that point one is able to tap into the source of life itself, the mind enters a pure consciousness in which there is the essence of Truth. One is able to perceive all possibilities, all existence, all dimensions simultaneously. One becomes Universal Consciousness, and is able to know all that there is to know and experience all that there is to experience with no atachment to ideas or concepts or imaginings. This is a state of understanding all natural laws and experiencing the true nature of Self. This is pure consciousness in which one experiences both being and not being, the void and all that is contained in the void. The veil is lifted for all time, and once this is embodied in one's mundane existence it remains beyond concepts, because this experience has resulted in a permanent change in one's very being - a change which can be used to benefit all life everywhere. You now understand the cause and effect underlying everything - every event. There is no further seeking, no attachment, no fear, everything simply is as it should be and one is perfectly in harmony with all natural laws and all other beings, because the realization that there is no separation is now experiential rather than purely conceptual. There are no longer any limits to one's capabilities because that to is an imaginary concept. One can simply delight in observing the endless flow of life through everything - everything in constant motion - everything interconnected with everything else, and that same consciousness that is all there is is interwoven within every fibre of the very fabric of existence. Sorry, i got a little carried away there, but this is how I conceive of that state of consciousness in this present moment. Perhaps it will change tomorrow. I look forward to some feedback. Thank you. David

Thank you Seeker Of Healing. It seems we are on the same page at least . Perhaps it may help clarify my question if I were to explain what gave rise to my questions: After many years of Qigong/Neigong practice I am still experiencing difficulties with ill health and various results of deviations in my Cultivation practice, as I have attempted to describe in several posts here. Quite by chance during an exchange on Quora I came into contact with a master (let's call him J.V.) who said that he was enlightened, and he told me that the only way I could possibly improve my health and fully develop my spiritiual potential was to practice to attain Mantra and Dharani Samadhi, then work with Wisdom and Compassion once the underlying karmic issues were resolved through the practice. He gave me a very intense practice involving Anapanasati and Mantra Samadhi, plus repetition of several powerful Dharanis and reading and studying the Buddha Sutras. He also instructed me not to continue with any MCO practices which guide the Qi round the MCO, he told me that it was very important not to interfere with the natural flow of the MCO. This confirmed the attitude towards such practices in the tradition within which I had been practicing for most of the time in recent years - Yiquan/Dachengquan, which maintains that the Hunyuan pr Yuanqi cannot be successfully cultivated if the mind attempts to interfere in any way in the natural movement of Qi around the meridians or the body. I have already described what I perceive to be the dangers and pitfalls of involving the Yi in the process, and I have had some extremely damaging experiences as a result of practicing in this way. There is someone else on Quora who claims to be fully enlightened (let's call him 'M')who also responded to my questions (there are actually several who make similar claims, but this particular person actually describes himself as being fully enlightened, and invites doubters to visit his webpage in which he claims to explain why he makes such a statement publicly).Having read his story, and remaining unconvinced, In the spirit of Buddha Dharma I challenged him to defend this statement. He went into considerable detail, but perhaps the most important thing is that his statements appear to be in direct conflict with what Gautama Buddha taught in several important respects. According to him Gautama deliberately limited his enlightenment. He says that once he had achieved enlightenment he confronted Gautama with this (he says that Gautama appeared before him), and said that Gautama simply stepped aside and made way for him to re-enter his body. He described his experience of enlightenment as having had what might be described as an 'out of body experience' during which he experienced direct union with what he called Tao or 'The Source'. He said that Truth was in no way to be limited to any particular tradition, and he claims to embody all religions and beliefs systems, and also describes Tao as God. He told me that he was able to make and patent a physical model of Tao and the state of constant flux, or what he describes as 'infinite possibility'.He told me that he used this device to understand the true nature of Tao and so reach beyond Nirvana to this ultimate Truth which he claims is way beyond the Nirvanic state. He says that Buddha made a giant intellectual leap when he spoke of 'not nothing' as opposed to 'the void' of previous Buddhas, but he said that this was in fact a limited perspective, because the Tao or Source was beyond 'not nothing'. Please bear in mind that this is my somewhat limited understanding of what he is saying from a purely intellectual perspective, as I do not pretend to be enlightened. He seems to be saying that this state of being is beyond birth and death, yet still allows one to remain in physical form. When I asked him about the actual method, he told me that the most effective practice was the use of the MahaMantra Om in sitting meditation (he said Lotus posture), whilst focusing on the Crown Chakra and practicing Anapanasati, or focusing on the breath. At this point of time I am following the instruction of the first master (J.V.) who sent me the practice, and he has told me that my path in this lifetime is the Mahayana Path through Mantra and Dharani Samadhi. He explained that much of the pain I have been experiencing is the result of embodied karmic causes. He said that the three areas in which I was suffering most discomfort corresponded with the three gates through which Karma is worked through. These are the base of the skull, the centre of the spine and the area below the hips. He said that once the Karmic issues were transmuted, there would be no further need for the pain to manifest. When I spoke of this with the master I mentioned previously ('M') and asked his opinion regarding the practices I had been given by J.V., he asked me which Samadhis I had experienced. Of course, all I could do was describe my experiences in the short time since undertaking these practices - only a matter of months. He did not appear very impressed by what I recounted to him, although he did say that some of my perceptions were important steps in the practice. I suppose I am in a way trying to vindicate the practice I have been given by J.V., and trace the practice back to an authentic tradition, as I admit to having little information about the Mahayana tradition other than what I have learned through my studies of the specific Suttras he instructed me to study and the other material I have been reading on Buddhism in general. I had a significant struggle with my acceptance of this due to an extremely bad experience early on in my development with Tibetan Buddhism. J.V. told me that Tibetan Buddhism has strayed very far from true Buddha Dharma, and embodies many conflicting beliefs which have no place in Buddha Dharma. He said that I needed to put all this behind me and make a fresh start. He said that these Dharanis would both heal and protect me and ultimately give me real power over all aspects of my development. He says that this is the way he reached his enlightenment, and that he is the living proof of the efficacy of this practice. It is my hope that this explanation of my present situation will help those interested in furthering this discussion to gain an understanding of where I am in my Cultivation, so as to advise me in order to avoid unneccessarily entering yet another incorrect path. My intuition tells me that 'M' is there as a sort of hindrance in order to confuse me and make me doubt J.V., but I have been misled so many times in the 30 odd years I have been practicing various forms of cultivation that I simply do not want to be fooled any longer. I don't have that much time left to risk wasting in futile practices. Thank you. David

Greetings. My name is David. In my introduction I spoke briefly of my past experience in martial arts and Qigong/Neigong cultivation. I promised to provide as much of an in depth description of this practice method, however please take into account that I can only speak from memory, and the actual training took place around 1993 shortly before I started training with Master Kam Chuen Lam in London. In addition to that, I have very little in the way of written notes. In fact all I have aside from my memory is a single ageing sheet of paper with a few diagrams and some Kanji writing... I apologise for the unavoidable length of this post, as there is a considerable amount to discuss. I encourage you to first read my introduction so that you understand how this fits into my cultivation history. The problem is that I only had the good fortune to study with this master for a very short period - less than 6 months, after which he simply vanished without trace. I met him on the island of Antigua while I was working there as a musician. He was sent from mainland China to work in a restaurant as a chef, but I found out that he was teaching internal arts and Shaolin Gongfu to certain students. His name was Yuan Yao. He spoke very little English, and most of the communication with him was via diagrams and hands-on instruction. He was also a master of an art I had never even heard of, but which according to him was so common-place in China that he was unable to earn his living using it. This truly surprised me once I saw him demonstrate the art...it consisted of him using nothing more than a small wooden scribe and his Qi to inscribe and draw on small stone tablets. The example he showed me was a small stone upon which he had inscribed a portrait of President Lincoln, underneath which he had also inscribed the entire Statute of Liberty - all this was hardly visible to the naked eye, and could only be really seen using a magnifying glass. The actual stone tablet was probably around 2 inches high and 1 1/2 inches wide from what I remember. Anyway, after having put me through a very cursory test he said he would teach me, and told me to return at 6am the following morning, which I did. In case you are interested, the test consisted of him telling me to hold my arm out, after which he struck it really hard. He seemed satisfied when I was able to withstand the blow without injury or yelping in pain. I was somewhat surprised actually, since I was no longer practicing the hard Qigong conditioning I had learned in the Shaolin Pei Hung gongfu system I started out with. Communication was really difficult, and what I wanted to explain to him I could not, which was that I was practicing a form of MCO with which I was having real difficulties, as it had just been taught to me before having to leave for this 6 month tour of Antigua. (Having become disenchanted with Nam Yang after my visit to Singapore in 1987 I had started to train with Master Lam's thumb student, however the techniques I learned from him did not come from his discipleship with Master Lam, as I later found out, although we did learn the Lam Long and short forms, as well as various Choy Li Fut forms, including the sword form, none of which Master Lam still taught) In those days there were no mobile phones, and contact with my Sifu was by letter and took a considerable time to exchange notes. The way I was taught the practice I now consider to have been overly complicated and in fact dangerous... In any case, let me try and describe what I was taught by Master Yuan Yao: First of all Master Yao had me hold a large piece of polystyrene between my hands, and turn it between my palms as though it were a large ball. In my own time he told me to practice a form of Qigong he taught me which consisted of standing with my feet shoulder width apart, and my lower hand palm up just below the lower Dantian, and the other hand palm down just below my chin. I was to stand like this for at least one hour each day. After a couple of weeks I started to get a handle on the practice with the polystyrene strip - I spent around 2 hours practising with him each day. I learned how to constantly circulate the material both toward me and away from me in constantly shifting spirals - to begin with very slowly, then gradually faster and faster. My hands were spiralling against one another, and my whole body followed the movement of the imaginary ball. After about a month of this, he drew a diagram of the MCO and showed me how to roll my eyes as the Qi reached the Dazhui gate, in order to help move the Qi around the head and back down the front channel. I remember that he showed me with a gulp in the throat as the head was slightly rotated just when the Qi completed the first part of the circuit, coinciding with the rolling of the eyes (while shut). My Qigong practice now changed. He showed me that I now needed to move the Qi in my lower Dantian in circles in all directions. This roughly coincided with the new practice of learning to walk the circle whilst still rotating the polystyrene strip. Gradually he encouraged me to move faster and faster, until I had the impression of a gyroscopic force pulling my body along with the direction of the Qi ball as I changed direction on the circle. After a while Yuan Yao had me practice on top of a circle of bricks. Then the circle changed into a figure of 8, and starting off very slowly he eventually had me moving at a cracking pace, changing direction constantly. Then one day he took he polystyrene block out from between my hands and motioned for me to continue without it. What surprised me was how strongly I could feel the Qi between my hands. I suppose about 3 months must have gone by by then, and I could feel what felt like a solid block between my Laugong points on either hand. Then one day, I went to the area behind the restaurant where we would meet every day but he was not there. I asked in the restaurant and they told me that he had returned to China. It was so sudden that he had not even been able to leave a message, which I found really suspicious. I knew of another student to whom he had been teaching Shaolin Gongfu, and he was also none the wiser. Unfortunately for me I was then to fall victim to my earlier difficulties in my MCO practice before meeting Yuan Yao, and became very ill. Upon my return to the UK I was rushed to the Hospital for Tropical Diseases, as I had all the symptoms of viral meningitis. I was totally incapable of moving my neck, and had a very high fever. Lumbar punctures were performed on me on two occasions, despite my trying to explain my belief that the real cause for my condition - the increase in cerebro-spinal fluid causing pressure on the brain - was probably down to my misunderstanding of the MCO method I had been taught before leaving for Antigua. I still believe that I actually forced the cerebro spinal fluid around the MCO instead of leading the Qi around it. My physical strength diminished considerably as a result of the lumbar punctures, and I have never returned to my previous level of fitness. But that is by the by. The fact is that what I acquired through the practice Yuan Yao taught me has remained with me, and it is this which has made the Taiji Ball practice so easy for me, but I don't know where to go from here. I would like to have the opportunity to have a master help me take the practice I began with Master Yao to the next stage, if there is one, and correct any errors in my practice. The problem is that despite the fact that I am sure there must be masters here in Spain or Europe who have the necessary level and ability to assist me in this process, I have yet to fnd one...(and one I can afford). Consequently I am simply practising Xiangong Fragrant Qigong, the 8 Zhan Zhuang/Yiquan postures (as taught by BK Frantzis, not what I learned from Master Lam), Taiji Ball (as taught by Dr Yang Jwing Ming in his first two videos) and circle walking, and a little Lam style Taijiquan, but that's about it without a teacher or a worthy opponent to train with. So my question is, from my description of what Master Yao taught me, what was the system, and what would the next stage in my training have consisted of, and who could help me to achieve this? I should mention that I am able to move the Qi around in my Dantian at will, and my perception of the state of my Qi development is that the Qi ball is very large and needs to be condensed into the pearl of immortality in order to move on from where I am. Does that make sense to any of you?

I would also recommend BK Frantzis's "8 Yiquan Postures" DVD. He introduces each posture in considerable detail, and he also makes a very important distinction as compared to the way Master Lam taught, which is never to move into a posture until your body is adequately prepared. Unlike Master Lam, BK Frantzis also does not begin with the Wuji posture, but instead reserves that for 'opening up the side channels of the body after first building sufficient Qi in the lower Dantian. I was surprised to see how different the postures were from those I was taught by Master Lam as well, and quite honestly the BK Frantzis versions seem considerably more powerful as well. From personal experience I would certainly agree that it is very difficult to take home the minute adjustments that have been received in a class. But I would add that there is definitely a negative side to participating in a class based largely upon energetic transmission - I feel sure that this builds a deliberate dependence upon the master. I would say that a true master would want to instil independence rather than dependence in his students, but then obviously this would have a direct effect upon their financial gains from teaching students. I can only say that once I left Master Lam's Association I was unable to continue to reap the same benefits as I could while attending his classes for several years, and in my opinion that should not be the case, because many of his top students could only rarely visit because they lived abroad, and if they found themselves dependent to the same degree as I was upon Master Lam's transmissions, then they would be severely handicapped in their cultivation. I am absolutely sure that this was never Grandmaster Wang's intention, and frankly I am rather disappointed with the tools I was given for my cultivation practice. I agree with many statements made on this thread. Unless you are taught correctly, Zhan Zhuang can be a painful and rather unrewarding experience. Another point that BK Frantzis makes is that these standing postures are pretty much all variants of the same thing. I agree when he states that it is the Qi itself which brings about the different postures - that is to say that once the meridians open sufficiently the Qi will allow the postures to change and expand, but something that Master Lam never mentions is the feeling of 'Peng', which to me is the feeling one needs to experience before moving from the lower postures to the higher postures, as it is this which tends to push the arms and hands out from the body, so that the higher postures do not depend upon the physical muscles to maintain the postural integrity. A master of Master Lam's level has no problem bypassing this to a large extent through direct energetic transmission, but I see that as a crutch which as I said previously tends to lead to dependence. In fact Master Lam would frequently use our Qi to redistribute it to help less developed students with their cultivation. But the point is that I never met one single student capable of putting into practice what Master Lam demonstrated from time to time. (And I trained for 6 years with his thumb student, then a considerable amount of time with Richard Reoch before I even met Master Lam!) To clarify, what I am alluding to is my belief that Master Lam was practising very differently form the way he taught. I am not talking about his level of cultivation, but rather the basics of the method, which in this instance relates to the postures themselves, and the hidden Neidan aspect of the training. If for example one uses reverse Taoist breathing during part of one's cultivation this can produce a very different effect, yet such subtleties are very difficult to perceive, even with a trained eye. That is just a very obvious example, but there are many more which are far more subtle, even what he is doing with his eyes, which in fact was how most of the transmission took place. This also lends further credence to statements regarding the difficulty of learning from videos. You may be able to learn the external forms, but would have absolutely no idea what is going on internally - that is a key issue here... I also feel that it is at the least helpful to have a direct understanding of the purpose for each posture, or at least have a general idea of which meridians and organs are being affected, that is something we were never taught, whereas it is one of the first things BK Frantizis's videos teach. There are many aspects to the system of Yiquan developed by Grandmaster Wang Xiangzhai which are simply never taught. And in addition to that, anyone who says that you could become a great martial artist or a great healer with what Master Lam teaches is simply deluding themselves, I am sorry to say, because it is not in my opinion real Yiquan/Dachengquan, and it is important to remember that it needs to work for martial application in order to be effective in healing or self healing.

Thank you for your reply Sudhamma, but do you know how the practice should have progressed from the stage I described? A further question: does this type of practice provide everything which the Yijinjing and Xisuijing would bring, or would one need to also practice either those forms or something similar?

Hello fellow cultivators. I have been a lurker here for quite some time. I decided to contribute formally because of my need for some help in identifying a cultivation practice I was taught quite some time ago. I have been practising various types of Gongfu, Qigong and Neigong over the years, far too much to list fully here, but just let's say that I started out with Pei Hung Shaolin Gongfu and Suang Yang Quan with the Nam Yang Pugilistic Association (Singapore) as far as 5th grade, then moved to Yang style Taijiquan, then Lam style Taijigong and Zhan Zhuan Qigong and Yiquan/Dachengquan. After this I practised Taijiwu for a few years after moving to Spain in 2000, then incorporated some Hunyuangong into my practice, learned from Dr Hu Yaozhen amongst other sources and also learned Neigong Yiliquan from a very kind forum member on another forum. I also learned some exercises from David Shen Verdesi more recently, but have been practising pretty much on my own since moving to Spain, with varying degrees of success and many setbacks including a car accident four years ago, which left me severely debilitated and unable to practice cultivation for a considerable amount of time. Presently I have begun incorporating Taiji Ball Qigong into my practices, using a wooden Taiji ball which weighs 3kg, following Dr Yang Jwing Ming's Taiji Ball instruction DVDs. I find this surprisingly easy, and have now begun practicing it whilst walking the circle. However, between my Pei Hung practice and the period with Kam Chuen Lam (preceded by 6 years training with Master Lam's thumb student) I had the good fortune to learn an internal Neigong practice from a Chinese master called Yuan Yao. I have reason to suspect that what he taught me has its roots in Baguazhang, and it is in order to try and identify this practice and learn how to take it to the next stage that I am here now, and will subsequently post in this regard, once I am permitted to do so by the moderators. As a preface to the information I intend writing about, I would like to warn any beginners to not follow my example. Find a good master and stick with him or her - don't chop and change styles or methods, as it is potentially very dangerous, as you will see if you follow my subsequent post. This is simply my path up to now, and it is all too easy to enter an erroneous path and do yourself considerable damage in the process. However this is the result of the tendency for masters to hold back in teaching all they know, or deliberately leave key points and practices out of their instruction. In my case it led to a great deal of disillusionment and unnecessary seeking and even what may be considered many wasted years of fruitless practice.