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ZYD - Thanks for sharing. Though my knowledge and understanding of this topic is very limited, I found the post and some of the links interesting to read. The details provided in the analysis are impressive.

Glad you liked the topic and posts. I have a different take on the source more in line with Dao or Emptiness and the Oneness emerging from that. Time is irrelevant after a stage or layer because it is a perceived limitation arising out of the self imposed veil that results in maya tattva. Subsequently the pure light/consciousness that is 'One' (In KS this would be Shiva) turns into the multitudes through the 36 tattvas or principles. Oneness is beyond maya, beyond the time, space or any of the other 5 limiting factors described in KS. The billions of years are valid within the confines of mind which is the byproduct of maya. Above the layer of maya, with the pure tattvas there are no such limitations as the time and space. Each one of us trace our way back through these layers until we reach the state where we started off. Checkout the 36 tattvas (principles) and the 4 layers of KS in this thread from my PPD. These are the ingredients with which the universe is made off. IMO, the KS and other tantric systems (including Buddhist tantra and systems like Dzogchen) explain the makings of the universe (starting from One/Shiva or from the light/consciousness layer and the transformation into mind, individual local 'I' perception, duality and into the multitudes) better compared to other systems. The non dual Shiva and other principles described in KS are different from the Brahman, maya and other concepts of the Vedanta. Some of them may sound similar in name, but masters from the KS tradition such as Abhinava Gupta and Kshemaraja have gone to great lengths to explain the differences. I have described some of the key differences in the concepts in 4 parts starting with the post below.

There is a distinction -- in my view -- between the non dual Brahman that Vedanta talks about and the nondual that Abhinavagupta describes in Monism of the Kashmir Shaivism. The first one states that Brahman alone is real and everything else is unreal. This seems to be about subject and object. It concludes that Brahman is the only real thing and all else is mithya, false or unreal. Whereas the Abhinavagupta's nondual seems to be stating consciousness and energy are not two separate phenomenon, but they are one.

I was encouraging EG to air his concerns and let go of the anger. That has nothing do with my views or decision taken by Mod team at the time in this thread. I recall you were the other person protesting that thread but were not disrupting the discussion. I have heard many such scare tactics as were applied on that thread pressuring the member sharing to stop and remove that thread, calling them secret teachings and it may harm others, etc etc. Those were all addressed by the OP in that thread. It's clear both of you still harbor resentments about this thread. It's not my business anymore. I have nothing else to say. Take it up with the new team. I doubt you will like their decision also. Politics aside I believe the moderators of the site no matter who they are, will uphold the principles of the site.

Btw, I still do not agree with your views this thread needs to be removed from TDB and your repeated protests on the thread disrupting the discussion, which resulted in some member reporting the thread complaining on your actions. This is what prompted the action from the Mod team at that time requesting you to let it go. If you still feel so strongly that this thread has no place in TDB, you are welcome to report the thread to the new Mod team and they can take a decision after reviewing the thread and the details of the old report. Best wishes once again!

Hi Earl Grey, I never had any ill will towards you and certainly did not commit any action with the intention to hurt. If you still feel I trivialized your hurt, I apologize for that. I am truly glad that you are able to air your grievances and able to release the anger. I wish you the best also. Much Love . ------------------------------------- I am very happy to see the Talk Trump thread shut down. Hope this will stop all heated discussion about Trump -- both for and against. If it were only up to me I would have done this (and blocked all other heated political arguments), long time back. I was also never in agreement with the amount of tolerance shown with respect to extreme views (from any side) or trading insults in the O-G area. I was informed such lax rules were the norm in O-G area of TDB all along. I mostly stayed away from this place.

Those that were part of the staff in the last three years will know the amount of time, dedication and hard work that Karen put forth (behind the scenes) as a moderator in this site to fulfill the user requests and to uphold the rules were instrumental for this forum to function (day to day). I want to thank Karen and others that were part of the staff on behalf of all users of TDB. It is very sad indeed that the owner whom many of us do not know or ever interacted with would suddenly show up and without interacting with the current staff just act and make authoritative decisions overlooking the rules and summarily discard the current staff in a post like this. Owner has the right to run his/her site anyway they want, but to suddenly show up after years, taking actions disregarding the rules and terms set forth for the site, to not reply back or answer questions from current staff members or show any gratitude towards the people that were maintaining/running this site in the owner's absence all seem pretty rude and to be stemming from some ignorant bias, blinded by some extreme ideologies leaning towards some side or 'ism'. Sadly none of this is consistent the with the principles of Dao which is part of the name of this site. I was one of the moderators from the staff that was discarded. But, I was not active here recently (past 3 months) due to personal reasons. I was very happy to receive the news that I am not a moderator anymore for whatever reason. I was going to ask dawei to replace me with someone that can actually spend time moderating here. I was sickened by the political bickering in this site (right or left, doesn't matter) and stayed away from it, even as a moderator only tending to other duties as I can. I do not have strong political inclinations and otherwise not bothered personally by any of Sean's messages or actions though I do not agree with them. I will continue to be here to see where all this goes. I like some of the other members and I have some very good friends in this site. This is the reason why I was here and I will continue to be here. If many or all of those leave, there will be no reason for me to be here, not that it should matter to anyone.

Here is your PPD https://www.thedaobums.com/forum/573-toni/. Best Wishes .

I don't think it is about giving up our practices, methods, rationality or any of the actual activities that we do. One need not give up any of this and all of this can add value depending on where we are. I wouldn't advise anyone to give up anything. The only thing that we give up when we surrender is the mental striving, the obsession of the mind to 'solve' and find answers, and to be in an acceptance mode. This opens us up to receive the divine grace.

I feel that transmission from a teacher or a divine being is needed in order to get to this point. Books and articles may indicate or point to what it is, but cannot take someone there. Individual effort no matter the type of practices or methods can also go only so far! At some point -- generally after the opening of the heart -- we let go and surrender to the divine, and get carried into this new territory effortlessly.

While I agree with Steve's views, let's review some of the key oppositions to this topic so far. You are not qualified to discuss this topic. You have no direct experience to make these claims. You are not a sufficient authority in my view to discuss this topic. Posturing such as how dare someone make such a claim or topic in the forums here All you say and quote are intellectual and just theory. I will state my elaborate stories and my own quotes from the books I like to prove this. Your theories are juvenile This is crackpot theory and my theory is the clay-pot theory. Here is the link to my post to detour readers to their topic. When I send a friendly request to remove this, just flatly deny. Your topic and what you state is entirely Nonsense. I will keep on opposing and rattling it page after page whether you like it or not. And the people who make such claims want us to believe they are the authority and have the 'direct experience' of higher realizations. Unfortunately their actions speak louder than their words. And to support such actions of ad hominem and ridiculing of others, directly or indirectly is the same as committing that activity in my views. Finally, when the topic is derailed and devastated, we end up asking questions or making assertions it would be great, if everyone discusses with noble intentions and not with the aim to winning, etc. Yes, it is unhealthy. But, we need to honestly investigate where the problem originates. I dislike many topics in the forum here and think some of them make no sense at all. I stay away from those topics, not go there and challenge the OP or prove my authority with my stories or claims.

I enjoy reading many of your posts and wish you would share more without any reservations. Your sharings reflect the inner clarity and shows that you are talking from your experience. More importantly you show fundamental respect towards others whether you agree with them or not. I appreciate all of this and your sharing is certainly not a rant to me. I would agree with much of this post also. But, feel disagreements and debates will never abate. There are those who will always assert their ways are the only correct ways or methods for everyone. I also feel disagreements at a certain level is needed, otherwise there won't be any productive discussion. Aiming to win an argument is alright with me personally as long as it is not an obsession and done in a respectful way. Otherwise there will be very few interesting spiritual discussions, if any. If I make a claim that I don't care to win while all along engaging in some debates with others to make my point, it may amount to hypocrisy. So, I personally do not make such claims, but see this happening in forums here plus questioning or challenging other people's authority inorder for them to discuss or share their thoughts. There is one more thing I would like to mention here. There are some that paint the picture that they are above all this, neutral and only here to enjoy amicable spiritual discussions. But, then they go on to make subtle remarks that clearly shows which side they are on and their willingness to overlook one sides indescretions or ad hominem attacks since it suits with their ideas. If we are opposed to such ugliness in principle, then we must act so accordingly and consistently. Such people that indirectly take sides are not truly neutral in my view and are acting as a fuel in ways to the very things they say they dislike. This is not about you since you made it clear from the start which side you are when it concerns to this topic. It is better to take sides in a debate if we are going to patriciate or be a truly neutral observer without saying anything or making any remarks that portray otherwise. It is very easy to conclude whatever we write and quote from books and traditions are direct experience and valid and finger point to others and say your talk is intellectual, just theory, etc. I would take just one exception with your post above with respect to quoting dead teachers. This is once again my opinion. Quoting, dead teachers living teachers, it is all the same to me. Why do we quote others? I will answer that for myself. I generally quote others because their words describe what I want to convey from my experience, understanding or realizations with better or more powerful words or statements than how I would describe it in my words. It is also convenient and handy may times. As per following dead teacher's it depends. For instance those teachers that are light, we can still connect to them and learn directly from them. Such as Buddha or Jesus.

Personal stories can be of value if they are relevant and shared with discretion. But, I think you missed my entire point, which is fine. You are entitled to your opinions as others. The past itself is an entanglement, in a way just a story of the mind that binds us to certain experiences. To think my past stories adds value to everyone is presumptuous. Whether my past stories add value to me itself is debatable. What is valuable experience to one may be just theory or irrelevant to another. What interests you perhaps does not interest everyone. A member that creates a topic can have some basic expectations like, discussion stays on topic, does not get derailed or turn into ugly debates and challenges. I understand you may want to listen to personal stories more. Everyone's wishes to read what they like to hear cannot be enforced in one single thread. Perhaps you can start a topic where people can share such personal stories of theirs. I excercise discretion on where I narrate my personal story to see if it adds value, relevant and most importantly whether it is welcome in the place where I am sharing. This is why in my personal views, our PPD's may be the best place to tell eloborate personal stories, narrate experiences, or share personal teachings as much as we like!

I can try to simplify. But, in order to answer this, we need to explore the states jagrat chitta or the consciousness present during the waking state and the components of the mind that I discussed earlier. In the framework I follow, the mind is basically made up of the 4 components (intellect (buddhi), manas (sensory mind), chitta (the subconscious, the mental formations, the habit energy, the vasanas or the impressions that we have been storing all along) and finally the ego that identifies as 'I' - ahamkara). I explained these parts and which ones functions during sleep and waking states with a picture I borrowed from Integral Yoga or Aurobindo earlier. Not sure if you checked that post. The sensory mind with sense organs and sense perceptions is generally off during sleep. Some may claim intellect is always on, but it is obscured with the other states. Like in a person who is drunk, the power of the intellect is diminished or non-existent at times. In the sleep state intellect can come on at times, but generally this portion of the mind is obscured. The ahamkara or the 'I' identification is obviously present in the waking and dream states, yet our true nature is covered by tamas (ignorance) in the deep sleep state. It is the Vasana Chitta or the subconscious layer of the mind that is always active 24/7. During the sleep phase it is predominant. During the waking state, we think or feel that it is the waking conscious that is acting and making decisions, but truly it is the subconscious or chitta layer that drives things. A majority of our actions are based on our instincts, our preferences, likes and dislikes, the habit energies, mental formations and impressions we have been storing all along. This chitta is built from the start of our existence when the entire creation came upon. This influences each and every one of our actions. Some of these subconscious impressions get released during the sleep state which we experience as dreams. All of this I have explained so far is to understand the waking, dream and deep sleep states. Just because the sensory mind is present at times temporarily or parts of the sensory mind is awake in some all the times due to their special abilities (siddhis), it does not indicate Turiya in all of these cases. Like Swami Rama example I gave, he was able to listen to everything while sleeping and snoring under laboratory medical observation. It does not automatically indicate Turiya or Turiyatita in my view. As far as your example of the woman, I cannot honestly make a determination if she is in Turiya or not. It would be wrong and judgemental if I do so. I think each person has to make a honest determination for themselves when they get there. But, it is possible to easily confuse other experiences of mind with the much higher attainments such as Turiya and Turiyatita that are beyond local and universal mind. That is the entire point of this thread. To bring awareness, let each person question and decide for themselves about the states. Not just listen and accept because some person claiming to be awakened says so. If only certain senses are present during the sleep state, that does not automatically indicate the state of Turiya. Those who have reached Turiya and Turiyatita states have reached the highest state of realizations. Generally they radiate such realization and if we are close to them, we may be able to observe and feel. Such people always act with compassion and their activities are geared towards helping others and relieving the suffering of all sentient beings. There is one clear distinction of the jagrat avastha or the waking state that I have mentioned already. It is the vividness or objectivity of the worldly experience due to the result of the fully functional sensory mind with the 5 sense perceptions and the 5 sense organs. This state of the waking experience does not carry into the sleep states, whether it is dream or deep sleep. Each person can decide for themselves from their own experience. We can only honestly question and decide based on our experiences. We all know for that the vividness and objectivity of the worldly experience present in the waking state is not present in sleep states. Except in lucid dreaming, even then the actual sense organs of the sensory mind are absent. And it is not necessary to carry such waking consciousness into sleep for the higher realizations. Voidisyinyang explained such states as temporary Nirvikalpa Samadhi states. I tend to agree with him. It is not my intention to discount anyone's experience. Some people waste tremendous amounts of time in trying to get lucid dreaming experiences, or trying to bring conscious awareness into the sleep. If you read/check some other places online, you might see people taking supplements, drugs or going to any lengths to get such experiences, assuming it is some high achievement. If a person visits sites like Amazon or retail stores, there are products sold claiming they induce certain sleep experiences or lucid dreaming or even more. My intention is to bring some awareness into this whole picture. Take claims of achievements and experiences in sleep with a pinch of salt. The initial link I posted stated some of these methods that induce lucid dreaming can cause harm and affect the normal sleep that we all need as humans. In my view simple mindfulness practice during the waking state, automatically takes over awareness to all other states. Getting a good night's sleep without trying to achieve something during the sleep also is the best in my opinion. Eventually everyone progresses and moves on to higher states. I have accepted there is some value to lucid dreaming and it can make a person understand that everything is just a projection of the mind. Such value from this experience is limited in my views. Some others do not agree and I am okay with that. Why chase some experiences or take the words or claims of some to believe it is possible to maintain the consciousness such the waking state in other states like dream and deep sleep. Even talk about Turiya, Turiyatita, etc are all of limited value compared to being present and reside just in the here and now.

Tom updated his post to indicate it's from 'Pratyabhijnahrdayam The Secret of Self- Recognition'. I think it may be from the following text. Tom can confirm. Edit: Some issue with the link I posted earlier. Updating it with the following Amazon link. https://www.amazon.com/Pratyabhijnahrdayam-Secret-Self-Recognition-Jaideva-Singh/dp/812080323X/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1549474083&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_QL65&keywords=pratyabhijnahrdayam&dpPl=1&dpID=51xwMJDVFwL&ref=plSrch

You can discuss Turiya if you like. I was just trying to avoid making this topic entirely about Turiya. But it is certainly related to the topic and cannot be entirely avoided. I agree that Turiya is unbroken awareness that continues through all states. That is exactly my point, therefore it does not equal jagrat = swapna = sushupti, or claim one state continues through the other. Those 3 states are unique and they still continue, the jagrat consciousness of the waking state does not spread into sleep, but a state of transcendent awareness can pervade or remain consistent through all of the 3. Turiya seems to continue through them unbroken as you explained. Your quotes on Turiya also seem to be valid form the AV standpoint. But, Turiyatita is different in my view based on the teachings of Trika and Kashmir Shaivism.

All of the above has nothing to do with this topic. This is just a minor example from your posts in this topic. I can quote several others, but what is the point! If you want to tell glorious stories from your past about kumbha mela, or go on and on about the books you read to prove your intellectual prowess to the world, I suggest you do it in your PPD area and not in this thread. This forum generously gives everyone a platform as PPD, where they can talk about themselves and their practices. In the 8 pages of this thread, you have written more intellectual stuff and theory than anyone else and yet go on to challenge others about intellectual theory. Totally ironic and sad!

No changes in my view! Conscious awareness in sleep is a myth to me. Just because some senses are alert in some temporary states with some, it does not prove anything. The state that transcends as described earlier is something else. I agree it is as simple as everyone's experience through the 3 states. I am asking everyone to investigate and find out for themselves. Not to rely on statements like yours (or mine) and decide. This topic might have gone into obscurity if it was left alone. Thanks to you and some others, who just can't help it, it is reaching to more audience and getting a much broader view than a topic like this typically gathers! In a way I should thank some of you who simply can't let it go and keeping this topic alive and on the top every single day. I hardly check or read the posts anymore.

I agree such experiences seem to be related to different types of nirvikalpa samadhi or perhaps clear light states. I have read that Swami Rami demonstrated such abilities to listen and be aware while snoring in deep yoga nidra states in a laboratory while they measured his brain activity with equipments etc. So this has been demonstrated conclusively and there is no question about such abilities. My objective was to distinguish these temporary states (you mentioned it as temporary type of nirvikalpa samadhi and I agree with this also) from that of Turiya, which is a permanent shift, however we want to describe it.

I understand and respect your experiences. But, I feel lucid dreaming is fun and it can make a person aware of the fact that everything is just the projections of the mind, including the physical world, objects etc. They appear and disappear as the result of the mind. As far as I know, it is safe to practice these with some guidance from a teacher or as part of the practices of certain tradition. I have had OBE experiences during sleep or meditative states, it can be alarming or scary at times, especially when it happens for the first time. Such fear subsides in my experience. It is all experiences that arise and subside in the consciousness and no reason for the fear, when this is experientially understood then there is no more fear. I am not sure whether images are incompatible without the waking consciousness, perhaps without the perception of the seeing, which results from (or is the reason for) the sense organ 'eyes'. But, I get your point. Images are not everything, it is possible to 'directly know' without imagery in the higher states. It can happen as flashes of intuition to everyone at times. Only many may not notice or understand what it truly is. You mentioned there is no easy way to convey such direct experience. I agree. It may be very hard to explain it to those who do not understand or disagree with the possibility of direct knowing. Agree on nirvana beyond the mind and you have not muddied the waters. Please feel free to share .

***. Mod Team Notice. *** I tried communicating in a fair and decent way with you so far. You have been judgemental from the start about who knows what or how much and who is qualified to talk on this topic. I have explained clearly there is no hierarchy in TDB and any one can discuss spiritual topics in a civil manner and in egalitarian spirit. Calling this topic and my remarks nonsense is a ad hominem and in violation of the terms of this site. I am warning you to refrain from such actions going forward. Once again if you don't like a topic, you can state your opposition in a civil manner. If you continue to dislike a topic, then as I advised you always have the choice to ignore instead of attempting cheap insults.

Thanks for pointing out once again what I have mentioned and explained several times so far in this thread right from the start. It feels like some won't get it or understand the difference between Turiya, Turiyatita and the other states. For a frog that has lived all along inside the well, the experiences or states outside the well may not make much sense and even be subjected to challenges. If we don't agree with a topic, we can state and explain our difference in 1, 2 or few posts. After that it is best to let go and move on to something else. Agree to disagree on the topic like some wise people do. Unless someone has attachment towards the topic and obsessing about it to keep raising the same objections and claims page after page. Not only does it gets tiring for the readers, it just kills the flow of the entire discussion.

Check out this post I created just some time back in this forum. It is about tantra for beginners and my review of a certain book. Books can provide some idea, but I think Jeff's suggestion may be the best thing for you to have a teacher to work with.

I think these points are totally relevant to this topic. Dimensions certainly plays a part in how we perceive our consciousness as. These dimensional possibilities are one of the things I meant when I described the multi-dimensional and the uncovering of new subconscious layers in some of my posts earlier. When we go beyond the bodily chakras, open and integrate certain higher and advanced layers, it opens up the multi dimensional perceptions. Our total perception of everything changes as we advance into these new layers of perception. Dimensional concepts are also the limiting factor to some. They are narrowed down by certain boundaries of their own perceptions and experience, and when they hear other's experience that is beyond their orbit of awareness or perception, it sounds like theory to them, since they cannot simply comprehend or understand it from where they are. It is like explaining the 4D concept of the sphere from that video to someone who has no clue about that 4th dimension and thinks the 3 dimensions are the be-all and end-all of everything. Yes, the flow of time itself is a perception and we are only seeing parts of reality in chunks. The now that we experience is also an illusion limited by the dimensions as rightly pointed out. Mind is inherently limited by time and space until the layers beyond time and space from the subconscious gets integrated. I believe it gets clearer as our clarity increases. If the concept and limitation of time itself is nothing but an illusion, then it includes past, now, future all of it. But, there are benefits to be present in the now instead of getting entangled with the mind's stories from the past or the projections about the future. I understand and agree that it does not indicate that the events are predetermined. But, it is possible to work with the various dimensions of past and future at the same time. Have an impact across the board. In the Kashmir Shaivism tradition, 5 kanchukas or cloaks that veil our experience are mentioned. One of them is the veil of time. I have written about it in the following post in my PPD. The veil of time is described as 'kala tattva' (time principle) anc limits us to this 3D dimension. It is part of the sphere of illusion, which is one of the layers to be transcended. The 4 other limitations besides the (1) time principle that bind us to this worldly experience are 2) the perception of space/distance limitation just like time limitation (niyati tattva), perception of limited knowing (vidya tattva), perception of lacking (raga tattva), perception of limited activity or authorship. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on this subject. I find them very interesting.

In TDB, one need not be an authority to create or discuss topics. There is no hierarchical structure in this forum and everyone has the independence to discuss the topics they like as long as it is civil. Some people challenged the topic, yes this is good and I welcomed it. I responded to some of the challenges that are credible in my view. Your claims about Ramana Maharishi, Vedanta including Mandukya Upanishad having consciousness in sleep were clearly shown to be entirely inaccurate. You make wrong assertions casually and then back off when questioned like quoting Eaknath Easwaran's book as the words of authentic Mandukya Upanishad. Many things you have said and written here are not even related to this topic like repeating your experiences from Kumbha Mela or people or some yogi you met, which I have read in various threads in TDB so far. While it is interesting to read such posts, other people's stories and claims of tall attainments mean very little to me. They generally add very little value to anyone. Claims of direct experience means nothing unless it is also expressed in the world or be demonstrable to others in the world. Lot of people make many claims of great attainments these days. Once again it means very little to me personally unless they can show it by sharing their presence or they radiate the higher states of realization. Challenging others direct experience or be judgemental about the expertise of others is pointless. This is why I suggested you skip the posts if you do not like reading them. Challenging other topics because in your view the OP is not an authority or don't have the experience you claim is not within the spirit of how this forum operates.