s1va

I think we may have different conceptual background and possibly different understanding of certain basic building blocks, or may be we are using the same terms with different meaning from our experiences. Such differences are entirely fine with me and we don't have to necessarily agree on this. I know you are speaking from your experience and respect that completely. Sleep is not just loss of objects of awareness to me. I explained the conscious and subconscious layers in a post earlier, it is the subconscious layer that is active during the sleep and not the conscious layer. The ratio of the conscious layer vs. the subconscious changes as we progress, when a chakra opens, we are expanding to include another layer of subconscious layer into the conscious layer. The mind is made up layer after layers. We start with the lowest level of conscious layer and everything else veiled in the subconscious layers of the mind. As we evolve and grow we further integrate layers of subconscious mind into the conscious layer of our mind. Thus the conscious layer grows. Sleep is always the subconscious part of the mind and the conscious layer is absent. I don't even know what the absence of objects mean. The levels of consciousness or the nirvikalpa samadhi stopping after a certain state that I mentioned are from my own personal experience (verified by some others who have reached or experienced the same states) besides the comments about Buddha. I consider myself to be fortunate to have come in contact with some who in my opinion have reached the state of Buddha. Doesn't matter what others believe or think about it. Based on reading certain sutras given by Buddha and also communicating with persons who I consider to have reached that state, I am able to come to certain conclusions and express them confidently. I can understand that if this does not sound right or makes anyone uncomfortable. You are more than welcome to post in opposition to the topic of this post as long as you do it in a constructive way without any malice as you have done so far. But, this topic is what I believe based on my experiences and know to be true, having conscious awareness in sleep just like waking state is a myth to me beyond any doubt. You are expressing your objections positively in a non-confrontational way. This is something I not only appreciate but welcome. IMO, such constructive objection against a topic and open discussion can be a lesson to many here in forum, to learn how to object to a topic without malice or resorting to ridicule of opposing ideas to illustrate or assert one's expertise on a topic. If you would like to further expand from your experience as to why you object to the title of this thread, please do not hesitate and just feel free to proceed, even take apart the title if you feel so . I am not attached to this topic and I welcome sincere and constructive opposition to the topic with open heart. Thanks once again for sharing!

I would agree mostly with your post with some exceptions. In the quote above, you mentioned the concious awareness is present in both states. It is present in the lucid dreaming state. But what happens in the clear light state, I would not call that as concious awareness, as in the same concious awareness in the washing state. Certain awareness is present in that state, but the concious mind with awareness that functions in the waking state is different. If indeed such concious awareness is there then the perception of the external world besides the clear light would be present in this state. Which does not happen in the clear light state in my experience. It is possible to retain the full concious awareness in the clear light state and it does happen eventually. When it happens, it is similar to the sahaja nirvikalpa samadhi. I also believe that the clear light state or the nirvikalpa samadhi stops after a certain stage of expansion. Which some of us here call as the light level that happens after the 7 bodily chakras open and the 8th chakra or the inner heart opens and the 7 bodily chakras collapse into one unified field. It is also called the jiva-shiva phase in Kashmir Shaivism. After this state, the clear light state or nirvikalpa samadhi without the full concious awareness does not happen. The similar samadhi states happen. But it is not just the awareness of the clear light. Sort of like a person has expanded to have that experience as part of their concious mind itself due to the expansion and integration of certain layers of subconscious mind. Still sleep is different. I have also not reached the stage where the awakened sleep is constant and transcending all other 3 states like in Turiya. However, you termed it as concious awareness in sleep, I see it differently. It is not concious awareness similar to the waking state in sleep for me. From what I gathered and read about Buddhas and other masters, no matter the expansion, there will still be deeper layers to uncover indicating infinite expansion. Even a Buddha enters sleep without the concious awareness that is present in waking state, this does not mean that there is no awareness of sleep. Their sleep is in an awakened state that transcends all 3 states, but it is not the concious awareness for the waking state. If it is, then there won't be any difference between the sleep state and waking state.

Thanks for sharing and it is certainly not a detour. I thought the benefits of lucid dreaming are limited. It is good to get a different perspective that explains there are multiple benefits and as part of dream yoga it can lead to clear light of sleep. I have practiced yoga nidra which leads to a state like the clear light state that you mentioned. But, I wonder if there is a relationship between the lucid dreaming and this clear light state. I understand both of them are part of the dream yoga. But, do you think one is a precursor to the other state, or helps to reach the other state? When I mentioned the nirvikalpa samadhi, I was thinking of the clear light state also, since both of them seem very similar to me. In my experience this also stops after a certain stage, not the samadhi itself, but the absence of functioning of the consciousness mind vanishes after a certain state.

Following is from your post. First you mention states beyond mind. Then you say or imply mind is everything for you, not separate from anything else. It sounds like one single continuim to me. Then again you bring up something about not enlightened and 'full of shit’! Whatever is beyond your discernment (or if you have not experienced like your orange example) could be full of shit for you in your own words. I am not finding any fault with your words and encouraging you to do what you were doing. Everyone can decide for themselves what makes sense and what is full of shit. This can evolve from time to time as we expand and our clarity increases. More things make sense. The point I was trying to make is, I am not here to convince you of anything, or to answer your rhetorical questions to prove something to you. Thanks to you too for the conversation and good luck 🙂.

Not surprised. Best Wishes .

I will take that as your opinion and I do not wish to debate your beliefs. Not sure if you read the article link that I posted. It explains in further detail about why the conscious sleeping is a myth, what Turiya is, what is 'awakened sleep' vs. consciousness in sleep, etc. You may not agree after reading and hold on to your opinions, which is fine. But, it may still be worth a read.

Thanks for your comments once again. I get your ideas on Turiya, while I don't agree with them as I have explained in the previous posts. This topic is also not about Turiya or the aspects of Turiya, but about 'The Myth of retaining conscious awareness in sleep'. So, I would like to get back to the topic or stay within that topic. If you would like to discuss more on Turiya, please start a new thread and we can discuss there.

You seem to contradict your own previous post directly. In your first post you said the state of Turiya is always there and accessible to everyone. Now, in the post above you seem to imply after one realizes one's true nature as Turiya, then.......... So, before such realization, one is certainly under the 3 states and not aware or accessing the 4th state.

So, according to you, we can put Abhinavagupta and KS teachings safely into the category of the 'unawakened' and ignorant?

"True, but even though it shines there, it has not truly become a conscious apprehension. Without conscious apprehension, even if a thing exists, it is as if it did not exist..." - Abhinavagupta. We have talked about this numerous times. The argument 'it is always there' is of little practical value to me or anyone else. Unless the conscious apprehension is there (in this case, the state of Turiya), it is useless or as if it did not exist in Abhinavagupta's words. Edit: Everyone does not have access to it, only those that can consciously apprehend or have the realization of the said state.

You have stated clearly that the mind is the be-all and end-all for you. If that is all you can speak from, then your questions are certainly valid. Is the mind truly the be-all and end-all? For many or the majority it could be, for some physical body is who they are. Not for me. And I can't answer for anyone else. I know it is not the be-all end-all for everyone. What we generally call as mind is a very limited entity just like the body. For someone that thinks that is all there is, conversation on something beyond the mind will certainly sound like full of shit. Sorry, I can't show or prove to you that there there are things beyond what is generally called as mind, when you are already convinced that that is all there is! For those who have an open mind, a child like curiosity, or willing to empty the cup, it is possible to explain, describe or even show the states beyond the mind. This is what many masters from different traditions have been doing for a long time. "The Tao that can be told of is not the eternal Tao; The name that can be named is not the eternal name. The Nameless is the origin of Heaven and Earth; The Namedis the mother of all things." The Dao is beyond the mind, it cannot be named or described. Is Lao Tzu full of shit? Could be, for some!

Not really informative.. but thanks anyways. Awareness without objects and consciousness retained during the sleep without objects does not make much sense to me also. These are the very mix-ups and the confusions that I was pointing out in the OP that can arise when we approach this topic.

Thanks for the response to the topic. I want to reply and clarify some of your observations with how I feel about this. Awareness is also a layer that one needs to go beyond. It is not the be all and end all, but some get struck at the awareness or oneness state and not see what lies beyond, which is the Dao. The mind is made up of 2 layers the conscious and the subconscious layers. The subconscious can also be equated with the chitta. During sleep the conscious layer is absent and only the subconscious is active. In the waking state the conscious mind is on the forefront, but the subconscious dictates our activities many times. As each chakra opens, it is like another layer that gets integrated into the conscious mind. The expansion continues this way into various levels, after the 7 bodily chakras, the inner heart or light, further expansion to include the plant and animal layers, all humans, galactic, multi-dimensional, beyond time and space, etc. These are all veils that get removed at each state as a person progresses and finds himself as none other than 'Shiva'. At the state when a person integrates the conscious and subconscious minds entirely, then they get to the state of Turiya or awakened sleep or fully awakened state. This retaining consciousness completely in sleep is what I and the article refer to as the myth that sometimes that we are led to believe or like to believe. The entire universe and all it's composition is made up of all 3 (sattva, rajas and tamas). There is not a thing or person that existed or can exist without all 3. Tamas is as essential as the other 2. It is not possible to sleep without the tamas. The bodily tiredness and the shutdown that leads to sleep is all the result of tamas. If there is no tamasic covering for the fully awakened person, then according to you, the fully awakened person never enters the state of sleep! I would disagree. Buddha slept every night and so did all the fully awakened masters that I know. What I am talking about is not just a recognition or some type of intellectual understanding that things rise and fall etc. Truly all of these states are just like passing clouds, I don't see them as rising or falling. The fully awakened state that I am talking about is permanent and ever present and not anytype of recognition by mind. This state is beyond the mind or any of it's capabilities like recognition, understanding etc. Turiya is generally called as the 4th state even from the scriptures to indicate that it transcends all the other 3 states entirely. If you want to call it something else, you are most welcome to do so .

Yes, meditation may induce lucid dreaming, but is not a necessary for factor to lucid dream. Temporary awareness in deep sleep and dream states are also possible as I stated like the nirvikalpa samadhi states and like the lucid dreaming states. Turiya is not a belief or idea, it is a state that goes beyond or transcends the 3 states of waking, dream and deep sleep as I mentioned earlier. It happens when the conscious and subconscious mind are totally integrated in a fully awakened person. It is not always experiences, but we can also speak from the glimpses of states we had and the realization that follows from such states to understand what lies ahead.

I did not know that lucid dreaming was part of the teachings of the Six Yogas of Naropa. I thought it was closing stage practices such as Maha mudra and yidam practices. Agree that the lucid dreaming can produce an awareness like everything is of the mind and self arising. But, I am not entirely sure how beneficial it is and whether it is worthwhile to actively cultivate it as a practice. I was also just pointing out the mix-up that happens with the lucid dreaming as an indicator of a fully awakened state.

Thanks. I don't know anything about that website. I just came across the article and found some parts interesting. Agree on the Daoist teaching of good night's sleep with no dreams. That is certainly a great achievement. The subconscious habit energies and the mental formations have to dissolve for a person to have dreamless sleep consistently. Not sure why or how full lotus padmasana or the rest of your post is important or relevant to the topic. Certainly some of these practices can help. I respect your views, but I don't see how any of these are a must have for progress.

Doing japa (repetition of deity mantras) with either Tulsi or Rudhaksha beads is considered beneficial and superior to any other types of beads. It has something to with their texture, feel and the vibrational energy from these beads. The finger tips have lot of sensitive nerves. To feel the texture of these beads by holding them with the finger tips and moving them like in japa is attributed somehow to absorb positive vibrations and to balance the energy.

Tulsi is the type of plant that spreads easily as Cybelle pointed out. So, generally it is better to get a small plant from someone who has one already. I have never grown from a seed and not sure how long would that take. If someone did perhaps they can answer. From a tiny plant (about 2 to 3 inches with few leaves) in a small water cup sized pot, it can grow in one season into a larger plant (up to a feet) needing a big pot.

You are welcome! You may be able to get Tulsi plants in summer from the local Hindu temples. Just call and ask them if it is possible to get a plant in the spring or summer. That is how we get the Tulsi plant in Texas. They generally give away or sell small Tulsi plants in cups (with some clay/sand) (for $5) in the temples here.

Tulsi is held in very high regard by Hindus. I like the fragrance of the fresh Tulsi leaves, it can calm the mind and even put the mind in a divine vibration in my opinion. In India it is common for Hindus to grow Tulsi plants at home. The plant itself is considered auspicious and also to spread positive vibration or energy. Tulsi leaves are used in the pooja ceremonies for the worship of Vishnu. It is also a very valuable medicinal herb as you point out. Tulsi water is offered to the deity Vishnu in Hindu temples and also served to devotees as blessings from the deity to consume. I also like the taste of the fresh Tulsi leaves. I guess consuming a few leaves everyday could be greatly beneficial to general health. It is possible to grow Tulsi plant in America in certain places. It cannot survive the harsh winter like in the east coast or Midwest. Places like Florida may be the best. We grow them in pots in Texas and keep indoors in the winter where it can get some sunlight.

Very good question. None that I can think of. Maybe I put my own spin on that one. 😊 I am glad this came up in the discussion. I have also made such mistakes at times in the past interpreting some teachings of Jesus to imply the illusionary nature of the world, or Advaita oneness etc. I guess it is bound to happen when we mix concepts between different traditions or view one from the lens of other. Also, I have read some interpretations of selected verses from the teachings of Jesus by some masters of Vedanta or Buddhism to imply this notion of similarities to the of illusory nature of the world and the concept of oneness, etc. It's good to know Jesus did not hold the similar illusory view of the world. Even this illusory concept as explained in Buddhism vs. various Hindu traditions are so different when examined closely. Due to the popularity of Advaita in the recent times, many Neo-advaita and modern spiritualists are painting all traditions and teachings to have essentially the same core concepts. This one point about the illusory nature shows the potential to misunderstand the teachings or lose the core context or the direction of the teaching. Reminds me of the pitfalls in trying to generalize everything as the same. It helps immensely to know that in the views and teachings of Jesus, the world is not entirely illusionary. It helps to understand the beauty and the uniqueness of his teachings in the right context.

I agree on the very considerable shift. Infact that is what it exactly is. A considerable shift and when it happens rapidly in some, it seems to leave a strong impression of a new state, or even mislead some to think they are enlightened. Is the person free from all sufferings and afflictions as Buddha stated? The answer seems to be no. To me, this awakening is just the start of the journey. Long ways to go afterwards. The challenges after the so called awakenings are much higher than before. One needs to let go and keep expanding to cope up with them. When they resist to let go, they suffer. Divine guidance is essential after the awakening.

The problem for me is, various different major openings and corresponding realizations are possible at different levels. Like, one going through the ten Buddha bhumis to finally become a Buddha or even before these bhumis, the chakra openings. Any one of these can be classified as an awakening and it looks like different people are discribing different thing as Awakening. There is nothing wrong in this. But, when we take Awakening as a one topic and study, it can cause lot of confusion since there is no common ground among all awakenings. If we say it is the emerging oneness and falling away of self that is common, then once again this happens at various degrees at each level starting from the heart chakra opening to the levels above.

Hi cg4tw, Welcome to TDB. Wish you success in your pursuit to become an immortal. Just curios, are you wishing to become physically immortal with the body or to achieve something like a rainbow body of light? Do you follow any particular tradition or practices?

I agree with this point, it is better to treat the lineages differently. There can be some similarities, the core values and principles in many spiritual paths are similar, but that does not make different lineages the same. Mixing everything up is unproductive imo, it can also mislead seekers into confusion instead of clarity. Context is very important.