aden

At least from my own limited knowledge learned from others, patriarchal hierarchy cultures and moral beliefs based around Hellenistic and Mediterranean/Middle Eastern cultures had a huge influence in the formation of Christianity as an established religion supported by the elites. Before such establishment there used to be countless different groups of Christ-followers who held different views and beliefs that competed against one another, quite a few of whom had beliefs that were considered highly egalitarian, individualistic, and "highly subversive". The Tale of Paul and Thecla may show a glimpse of the beliefs of these "subversive" Christ followers. (and there's a bunch of texts that weren't accepted nor canonized by the Church as well). The contents of the Bible itself show that patriarchal hierarchy cultures of Hellenistic and Mediterranean/Middle East had a huge influence on the various different writers during the early Christian era. Such trend eventually dominated and assimilated into a religion that was favorable for traditional hierarchy cultures, while casting differing views and texts as heretical. The process is actually frighteningly identical to how Sinocentrism, Confucianism, and Han Chauvinism absorbed & assimilated various different cultures and ethic groups throughout East Asia while casting all others out as heretics or "barbarians".

This actually reminds me of certain accounts related to supposed demonic attacks, like events related to Annabelle's doll: https://www.mirror.co.uk/film/annabelle-based-true-story-real-10959182 > The Warrens agreed to take it away and Ed drove Annabelle to their museum for safekeeping. He claimed the doll willed the car's brakes and steering to fail - repeatedly. He threw Holy Water on Annabelle as she sat on the backseat in a bid to stop the 'attack'. It seemed to pause the weird behaviour. > Arriving home, Ed sat the doll in a chair near his desk - he claims it began to levitate, but then swiftly fall inert. Over the next few weeks it would move, cropping up around the house. One day a priest came to visit. Seeing the doll in the chair, he picked it up and addressed it, saying: "You're just a ragdoll Annabelle, you can't hurt anyone," tossing her aside. > Ed was appalled, shouting "That's the one thing you better not say!" An hour later the couple saw the priest off, asking him to call them when he got home. A few hours later he rang, his brakes had cut as he turned on to a busy intersection. He'd been in an accident, his car was destroyed and he had barely survived. > (Edit: more) ....... "These are prayers that bind the evil — much like an electric fence for a dog." It seemed it was over, but it turned out Annabelle wasn't to be restrained. Lorraine Warren has since warned what happens when Annabelle is mocked. > A defiant man visiting the museum had heard the tales and began bashing on Annabelle's case, calling on her to scratch him if she was real. "Son, you need to leave," Ed warned, trying to protect him. He was too late. > "[The girlfriend] told us that they were both laughing and joking about the doll when the young man lost control of the bike and crashed head-on into a tree," Lorraine recalled years later. The man was instantly killed. His girlfriend survived but was in hospital for a year. Jumping to assumptions here, but could powerful entities like the spirit/demon of Annabelle's doll, have abilities or are capable of things akin to that of powerful internal arts masters? The ability to cause harm through mere thoughts or emotions (whether it be directly or indirectly) seem like an incredibly dangerous ability, and something that could easily be abused.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Interdimensional_hypothesis

Thanks for the good read. Very interesting style and approach to martial arts. The way of him using the sword may come from a slightly modified single-handed Chinese saber methodology, or at least that is how I perceived it. A lot of Yang taiji saber methods and Korean swordsmanship materials can also look very similar.

This is actually a very interesting interpretation, especially considering how lots of forms of Christian denominations/interpretations today (as well as historical ones) directly urge the followers to "suppress the self" or "sacrifice thyself" for the sake of the Lord/Father. Or something in the lines of that. Lots of them use the reasoning of "not sacrificing/suppressing the self" = selfishness, corruption, disobedience, disorder, disrespect towards authority, etc. Ironically at the same time, however, some preachers I came across used to teach that Jesus/God was in everybody. What it seems to me is that most Christianity followers throughout history have been having a hard time viewing ourselves as something more than simple flesh & blood that craves nothing but carnal pleasures - without "God". In short, they have never felt secure without establishing the belief of a form of "external" confirmation. If anybody tried to relate God to our own very being or "self", he/she was regarded as selfish, egotistical, new-age cultish fanatic. (In fact, lots of Christian followers in Korea regard Daoism as an egotistical, cultish philosophy that leads away from God.). But I like to think that God is both in us and out of us at the same time, in both everything and ourselves.

The movement could be used for anything really. It could be used for covering the flank, i.e. deflecting or "counter striking" attacks directed towards the side/back of the legs or the groin - whether they be kicks or hand techniques. Or instead, it could be used as a form of an attack or a follow through. Here is one example that illustrates the usage of the movement pretty well, from 2:58 to 3:30.

I have not yet learned that variation of the crane stance personally, but I have seen a very similar version of it. (almost like a "flicking" kick towards the back.). There's also the regular crane stance with the shin held perpendicular to the floor, as well as the one with the shin held in a 45 degree angle. I will make sure to try out the sticky feet exercise. P.S. That is the reason why I will also strive to learn both martial and medical aspects of internal work. They seem to complement each other very well IMO.

Well hopefully my joints and flexibility will continue (or progress) to become stronger, regardless of age - as I train internal work. It's a wild dream, but looking at certain old and experienced masters moving with impeccable agility and grace (that I can only dream of) really motivates me. And definitely agree with the second paragraph. I did hear that "leg deflections" - blocking and deflecting attacks with leg work - was an integral art in Northern long arm styles, which has almost died out today. But more the reason to acquire and train that valuable skill. And "sticky feet" sounds very interesting. I also think the emphasis on skills such as "leg deflections" or "sticky feet" is the reason why Northern long arm styles stress certain elements so much, such as crane stance variations and crescent kicks. (these movements were definitely used with such skills in mind).

Some practitioners say that Tan Tui is a method for training to use the legs as effectively as arms, effectively giving the practitioner "four arms". Anyways, I don't see this "revolution" of MMA trying to prove Chinese Martial arts to be ineffective as a big deal. The martial arts world has always been full of frauds and crooked marketing tactics, in both past and present. (there are records mentioning this, even during the Ming dynasty.). Actual, dedicated martial arts teachers and practitioners will continue to train diligently and retain their knowledge. That's what matters most, from my perspective.

Hello all, As a beginning martial arts practitioner (Northern long fist) who has been training for around a year and far less experienced in internal work, I have been trying to look for a proper teacher who'll be able to guide me in internal cultivation for martial arts - mainly for internal power development/control. From the numerous posts I've seen on these forums, there seems to be a lot of people who are very experienced in internal work and skill, whether it is for martial arts or spiritual cultivation (or both). However, I also feel like people with genuine, high level internal cultivation are extremely rare, so I come for your advice. I have an opportunity to learn Sheng Zhen Gong with one of Master Li Junfeng's direct students. From the information online, it seems that it is more of a spiritual-focused one, rather than a martial-focused one. However, some teachers in my area (Austin, TX) highly recommended me to learn from his system, as they informed me that Master Li is also very experienced in martial arts as well. Any thoughts?

Hello Everybody, I again wanted to thank you for all your feedback and advice last time. Just wanted to say a few things: Training under Sifu Harris (I call him Justin) is going well. I don't have too many opportunities to meet up in lessons, since we live approximately 3 hours apart. But the materials and advice I've learned so far has been helping me a lot in martial practice; the movements are much smoother, and I've stopped overextending and "locking up" myself. (a common problem I used to have, very easy mistake to make when practicing Long fist). Most of my training is still self-practice. As I chose to specialize in Long fist rather than learning Bagua/Taijiquan, Sifu Harris decided to train internal principles of Tong bei (通背). It works wonderfully well with Long fist, Sifu Harris actually noted that it was one of the notable internal training principle among Northern Long-arm practitioners in the past. (He noted that he learned it from Hui teachers, who mainly practiced Chaquan.). Thank you everybody, I will continue practicing now. P.S.: Clarification regarding lineage: After some more research and asking around, I may have been in error regarding my lineage's style. The only clear thing about the Long fist style of my lineage is that it originated from the Shantung province. It's not really known how the system was formed, but it dates to at least the mid-late 19th century China, later on passing over to Korea in the 40s-50s. When it arrived in Korea, this Long fist style existed alongside arts such as Mantis and Bagua. However, it seems like the extensive mixing of Mantis/Bagua and the original form of Long fist in Korea hadn't occurred yet, when this style of Long fist was learned and passed on over into the U.S (it came into the U.S. in the 70s). Most of the related Chinese martial arts schools in Korea and outside Korea, on the other hand, show extensive mixing of Mantis-Bagua-Long fist. It's highly likely that the Long fist style of our school is almost, if not pretty much the same, as it was in mid-late 19th century Shantung, without any notable Mantis or Bagua influence/principles. So that was a mistake on my part.

Hello all, Thanks for the interesting discussion. While this discussion was very informative and insightful, I have to admit that what I've read was a mixture of things that sounded familiar and things that I didn't know about at all. But that is to be expected, as I am only a beginning practitioner who has little experience in terms of internal work. Since this forum seems to have many experienced practitioners, I would love to meet up and train together one day. How would one start off in training for shielding, or developing the "center"? My assumption is not to rush, as my teacher have made me train basic techniques for 4 months now, along with standing meditation. Is anybody willing to give any advice please? And would the principles of shielding become different according to which style of internal work / martial arts the individual practices? For example, many members in this discussion are Taijiquan practitioners, while I've been training in Northern Long fist and internal techniques primarily centered around Tong bei principles, which my teacher learned from the Chinese Hui people. Would this affect things significantly, in the grand scheme of things? Best, Aden

Something that also occurred to me was that the mind and the world aren't necessarily completely separate entities. But correct me if I am wrong please.

Hello all, Just wanted to ask a question about weapon and force production. So as chinese martial arts practitioners train under internal principles, such as meditation and neigong, many of them (at least genuine ones) learn to produce and utilize various types of forces - namely fajin. From what I gather, fajin can be used and projected in numerous ways; they can be more of a non-lethal pushing force, while others can be much more destructive in nature (i.e. used for breaking objects, sometimes through objects - striking the internals directly without leaving external marks, or breaking a bottom brick without harming the ones on top) Can the same principle be applied for weapons? Such as sword or saber. For instance, how would a intermediate or above level skilled IMA practitioner fight with a sword or saber - against opponents with heavy plate, brigandine, or lamellar armor? Well-made full suit of armor often made bladed weapons ineffective, and historical European warfare often resorted to prolonged wrestling to attack the weak points of the armor. However, this often made them vulnerable to multiple attackers, and usually put bigger and stronger people at an advantage. Or is it somehow possible for IMA practitioners to strike their opponents bypassing the armor with weapons? Or even enhance the cutting power and resilience of their swords/sabers? Weapons isn't something that seems to be talked about frequently, so I wanted to ask.

Thanks for the input. It's just that I am inspired by the versatility of swords/sabers, and would like to master it just like I would with empty hand forms. And the lineage I learn from specializes in saber & staff. Maybe it's military oriented? (Many MA instructors teaching soldiers during the late Qing - Republican period started focusing on sword/saber + bayonets). Anyways, the description of MAists mastering weapons to the degree of spiriting and cultivating their own swords gives me some real inspiration. If it is possible, it certainly is a goal to work up to. Meanwhile, I'll work on Tan Tui.

Wouldn't that damage the blade? If you meant striking with or strengthening the sword with internal force, I guess it won't, though, and certainly would affect the opponent. Edit: So another question just popped up in my mind: If it's possible to attack the opponent bypassing the armor, is it possible to just damage the exterior armor using internal force? Just as an IMA would concentrate on breaking the top brick only, in a stack of bricks. Even if it were possible, though, I can imagine it didn't happen a whole lot, as it was cost ineffective in subduing the armored opponent. (opposed to directly striking them or bouncing them away)

That actually reminds me of several stereotypical tales of wuxia and Japanese swordsmen - who were capable of chopping through the most durable armor, and kill demons and dragons with one stroke. However, the principle behind it sounds pretty amazing to be honest. You did mention mini-swords and mini-halberds. So do certain objects (or maybe even the concept of those objects) allow easier "internalization"? Also,how does a saber compare to a straight sword in terms of internalization? Looking at it that way, I can see why chinese martial arts focus on bare hand forms first, and weapons second. Was it the same way historically? Since swords/knives and polearms were heavily involved in self defense of pre-modern day East Asia, wouldn't have people emphasized training weapons more compared to bare hand combat? Or did people still focus on mastering bare hand forms to a degree before progressing to weapons, albeit not as much as today?

Hello Gerald, Thanks for your kind reply. I agree that the most significant cultivation comes from my actions towards others. Although internal work has become a significant part of my life, it can by no means replace the value of people around me. The main reason lightness skill fascinates me is mostly for martial purposes. It seems that it would complement the martial arts that I practice very nicely (Northern Long fist) - especially with its emphasis on developing agility and speed; in addition, one could say that agility and evasiveness are the two of the most crucial factors in deciding a martial artist's capability. However, I don't plan on trying to search for guidance on advanced level skills, as I am only a novice practitioner. As for a the skill being used to show off, it definitely could be used that way for sure. For me, however, martial arts is a very personal thing which I practice and train on my own (& occasionally with my teachers). I personally would not be able to stand being gossiped about or being bothered by other people (especially over something most of them wouldn't be able to understand ), let alone my friends stereotyping me for being an asain who practices martial arts nowdays . I believe that skills such as martial arts should be used for practical & benevolent reasons - rather than for becoming a big bad bully.

Isn't it also possible for some internal masters to choose when they will die? The lightness skill fascinates me. How fast/agile can a practitioner be with lightness? What are the overall capabilities? I imagine that the practitioner's mind/mental speed/reflexes become more refined & quicker as a result.... is this true? + I can see that there probably are multiple ways/schools of practicing/achieving lightness, although not a lot of them are known among the public - even to us internal arts enthusiasts. From what I gather, lightness skill is an extremely powerful skill to have. However, the techniques of achieving them are practically useless - unless one has achieved a sufficient base in basic/intermediate level internal work. Are there any health and vitality benefits that come along with practicing lightness?

Alright, back from Sifu Harris's class. He seems highly knowledgeable in IMA styles, and specializes in Baguazhang - primarily from Yin style and Ching style - and others. He also teaches Sun & Yang style Taiji, as well as White Crane, but aren't really things that he specializes in. He also told me that he has experiences in Tan Tui as well. The techniques I learned today were primarily Bagua oriented, but there wasn't any material that conflicted with my Long fist curriculum. He is aware of all the different IMA schools,teachers and their training philosophies - Sifu Anthony Korahais and Sifu Wong Kiew Kit being the two of them. He actually explained that his philosophy of deciphering forms / combat application is pretty much the same as theirs. While he didn't teach me any extra qigong techniques, he told me to continue on practicing Sifu Korahais' material. Sifu Harris taught me the basic principle how to internalize my Long fist, via "relaxing but not collapsing". I was taught to relax my movements, and focus my intent when I punched or palmed. The details are hard to write, but I hope you understand what it means. While doing this, he emphasized the importance of being aware of my own "internal body" as well as my surroundings. To practice this, he taught me standing meditation. There's numerous others, but we have planned to focus on: 1) deciphering & applying my long fist forms for combat 2) internal power for martial & health purposes 3) learning Baguazhang - not so sure how deep I am willing to explore into the art, but we will see. Overall it was a very satisfying lesson. I completely backed out when he offered me to test his internal strike on me though. P.S. about the middle dantien emphasis on Northern Long fist styles, he disagreed with the sash training method. I'm not going to get into the details, but he told me that middle dantien training will come later when I have established a strong basis in my lower dantien. Edit: Long fist curriculum --> Long fist material that I've learned so far (thanks for pointing that out Sudhamma) Regarding what of Sifu Harris knows, I can't say for certain. He said he had learned from various reputable teachers and picked up what he was able to learn. Of course, he noted the stark differences between the Yin and Ching lineages.

Thanks for the info. I have already decided to meet with another teacher in like 2 days, but I still plan to look into the group. I will post how my experience is in a few days. Glad to see that they emphasize applications, by the way. I feel that the skill to translate apply the movements people learned in the forms for combat is a very rare skill.

I agree that there will be revisions, no matter how pure a certain style is. Martial arts, after all, reflects on the skills and experiences of an individual. The most important part is how to integrate those experiences and skills as a consistent system - which majority of the traditional kung fu arts have done perfectly. For that reason, I tremendously respect chinese martial arts, as well as Kenpo styles - as they succeeded on establishing the philosophy of integrating existing techniques, forms, and experiences smoothly into a complete, consistent system. I think modern day MMA (as well as other modern day combative-oriented systems) severely lack this aspect. I am pretty sure than both quite a few "external" schools in the past put much more emphasis on internal cultivation. The internal cultivation practices would also carry over directly to combat, such as application of fajin and agility. For some reason, these aspects are completely absent in a lot of kung fu schools today. I only became aware of internal force after I took the lesson from Sifu Korahais (and it's only been less than a year since). It's depressing to hear people say that the so called kung fu practitioners claim that horse stance is just for strengthening the leg muscles. No applicability in using the stance for footwork or developing internal force/stillness. If you wanted to strengthen leg muscles, why not just lift weights? Isn't the original Tan Tui from the Long Tan temple? And agreed with Tan Tui being worthy of years of study. Sifu Wong Kiew Kit mentioned that one could be a very powerful master just with mastering Tan Tui. Although the form looks basic on the surface, I can see how every single movement can be applied in multiple ways. Because of its simplicity yet sophistication, Sifu Korahais mentioned that it takes a lot of skill to master Tan Tui for combat.

I actually did hear than my school's lineage is primarily influenced by Long fist styles from Shantung. Thanks for the recommendation, but I have decided to stick with my current instructor for now. Many chinese martial artists throughout history picked up and adapted combat techniques for their own benefits. I don't think styles need to be "pure" or have "unbroken lineages" - they just need to be practical and applicable to one's own philosophy. After all, chinese martial arts are very practical. In terms of practicality and effectiveness, I think both mixed and un-mixed styles of traditional kung fu are all on equal levels. Not so sure about this recent movement on trying to turn kung fu into basic kickboxing and wrestling, though. We seriously need more discussion about Northern Long fist styles on this forum. They're very much neglected compared to other styles like typical IMA styles or Southern kung fu styles.

It seems that quite a few Northern Shaolin schools pick up and adapt different forms for their needs and philosphies - vagabond style, rather than strictly sticking to one "martial art style". Our lineage seems to be included in this category. So there are some mantis influence in our forms! I had no idea. However, we primarily use fist and palm. We don't use animal-hand techniques.

The school's name originates from Korean pronunciation, actually. I think it means "18 skills"; I don't know the reason why, but to clarify further, this martial art is different from the traditional korean martial art mentioned in the korean text "Muyedobotongji" - which references another martial art that is named "18 skills". (Both are completely different). Here is our lineage's information. Hope it clarifies things: http://www.kungfu-wushu.com/history.htm I looked up the Jing Wu tan tui style, and there definitely are similarities. There are, however, portion of the forms that are completely different as well. Didn't know Pigua and 7-star praying mantis were classified as long fist styles. Interesting! + I will make sure to talk about these two training methods to my instructors. Hopefully I will learn a lot from them.