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This is something that I never heard of. Thank you for the information; developing deftness and agility through internal cultivation is one of my main goals if I do get to learn proper neigong. We haven't used waist sashes before. It's unrelated to the ranking systems right? So far, I have only learned from my instructor privately in regular clothing, as he doesn't hold any regular classes anymore. Since my system doesn't (or haven't yet - I've only learned 4 out of 12 lines of Tan Tui in our system) used waist sashes for qi cultivation, do you have any suggestions? Possibly, I could learn how to train with sashes myself, with a capable instructor? I will ask the Sifu I will be meeting this weekend about this. P.S.: Does the middle dan tien thing have to do with qing gong (lightness skill)? I'm not so sure about standing posts, but I've been consistently practicing stances for the last year and a half. Could you inform me about Standing Posts? My training has been mostly self-practice - me learning the material and correct mistakes when we meet up, and practice for around 2 months on my own & repeat. Our style is a pretty unknown one. The name is Sip Pal Gi - a northern kung fu lineage that settled in Korea. There are several branches that differ quite significantly though, as it is a mix mash of long fist, praying mantis, and bagua. Our branch emphasizes long fist with some bagua influence - very little to unnoticeable mantis influence. Our version of tan tui is different from the more commonly known Jing Wu 12 Tan Tui or 10 Tan tui of Liu-He-M'en. And yes, I was talking about Neigong, not Daoist meditation. Edit: Actually not sure about Bagua influence. We use circle walking as a tool to better understand footwork and transition between stances. But there doesn't seem to be any explicit influence of Bagua.

I may be seriously misinformed about this, but I read something about Gary Clyman's system doing something in the lines of "circulating your qi 1,000 times per breath - at the speed of light (!)". Again take it with a grain of salt, as I have no experience in his system (or any intermediate/advanced system for that matter). Can anybody inform me about this topic? Yes. Again, can anybody inform us about this?

What are the specific benefits of Macrocosmic Orbit? Specifically referring to martial arts. Does it depend on which school one is learning in? I did read some styles aim to speed up the MCO to cultivate force and increase general speed. I can also imagine the type of results achieved differs from style to style as well.

I can imagine the movements changing a bit after integrating IMA principles in an external art. Of course, majority of the kung fu styles tend to be more "flowing" than other martial arts, regardless of they are external or internal. (This is not to say that other martial arts styles are stiff and rigid, or kung fu styles lack force). The qigong material I previously learned was not from the kung fu school I learn in, but from one of Sifu Anthony Korahais's classes - where I learned some basic principles of Cosmos qigong & picked up some useful exercises from him. It changed my view towards qigong entirely, as I attained many benefits I simply thought wasn't possible with "woo-woo gentle exercises". (mental clarity, mitigated allergies & relaxation, increased sensitivity, etc.) Actually, Sifu Harris (the Sifu I'll be meeting with this upcoming weekend) also teaches White Crane, along with Taiji & Bagua. He did mention that he could help me with applying internal aspects into my Northern Longfist style; I presume he will use similar principles as he does with White Crane. My personal assumption/opinion is that it is impossible to reach pinnacle attainment of martial arts by purely/primarily external means; there needs to be a certain degree of emphasis on internal cultivation involved. (half internal/half external approach of White Crane - I feel like pretty much all kung fu styles can be adopted into this approach, as well as quite a few karate styles) Isn't MCO an advanced technique, by the way? Don't you need to establish a strong base before attempting it?

Thank you for your recommendation dwai. Edit: Alright, just got in touch with Sifu Harris today. We will be meeting in about a week from now on. Hopefully I will find what I've been looking for a long time; regardless of whether I do or not, I will come back to this discussion later.

Thank you for the recommendation, azucenaalev. What type of experiences did you have with this school? Do they extensively practice internal work? How about combat application/sequences from forms? Won Hop Loong Quan sounds interesting; never heard of it, but is it a northern kung fu style by nature? I'm genuinely interested. Edit: I know that more "spiritual" systems don't necessarily do internal work for martial arts, but couldn't they still be cost effective? I also hear that advancing in internal cultivation for martial arts / medical usages don't come without spiritual development. I know that it probably won't in terms of Fa jin, as they do not practice it - but rather in terms of mind development (mental clarity & awareness/alertness), suppleness, and energy cultivation. The reason why I've been keeping Sheng Zhen as one of my potential options is because they also have seated forms & meditation forms that work on training the mind, qi circulation (microcosmic orbit?), and opening up the middle and upper dantian. On their website, they listed the middle dantian as the heart, and the upper dantian as the third eye. In addition, I've began practicing Shiba Luohan Gong, which already has force/fa jin/agility exercises. I was thinking that practicing a martial-specific moving form like Shiba Luohan Gong alongside the seated/meditative Sheng Zhen forms under a good teacher may complement each other tremendously.

Regardless of it is internal or external, techniques will be useless/less effective without sufficient force, speed & skill. The thing is that Boxing relies on external conditioning (taking punishment, bag work, muscular/cardio conditioning, raw genetic physical reaction time) to build these things. Unfortunately, these things have a limit in how much they can grow and dwindle with age. (as we are genetically inferior puny little humans, lol) If the old masters really were capable of defeating more physically vigorous foes, it sure wasn't just with techniques. They probably also had superior force, speed & skill - although this isn't possible with external conditioning. Hopefully I will find out for myself soon, as I train with a capable teacher.

Thanks for the advice, Seatle185. Thing about fajin is, that I am already in the process of learning 18 Lohan gong, which contains 6 fajin exercises. I haven't learnt any Fajin exercises yet, but am instead focusing on force exercises. (I plan to start practicing fajin exercises after practicing force exercises for a few more months & hopefully finding a good teacher to monitor my practice). Since I already have the martial technique side of neigong covered, what I am really looking for is training Jing and Shen (mind/spirit). I am also very interested in more "general" developments people gain from high level qigong, such as increased vitality, mental clarity & perception, and being able to use internal force for augmenting physical movements. What I'm saying is that I would like to practice internal cultivation to enrich other aspects as well, not just fajin. Although, I also firmly believe that Taijiquan is also much, much more than just fajin. It's just that I would like to focus on my current martial system that I am learning. I actually wouldn't be surprised if some top level professional mma fighters had rudimentary forms of internal force. Of course, it probably would pale in comparison with a moderately experienced internal practitioner. You may hear about accounts of top level athletes, musicians, or regular people without internal cultivation background "being in the zone", or in extreme state of focus to a degree that time slow down and such, etc. due to focusing on a competitive match or being in an accident. Not surprisingly, everybody has energy and mind. Now, being able to train and practice energy and mind, as well as use and direct it to one's own will in an optimal matter? That's probably on a different level entirely.

My personal opinion is that before learning martial arts, regardless whether the style is internal or "external" - should start with energy work. Regardless of whether a person is relatively "fit" or not, I can see good energy work providing a solid foundation in martial arts for any person. Although I myself feel arrogant for stating this as a beginner martial arts practitioner, I firmly believe this is the optimal route. Learning introductory level Cosmos Qigong (from Sifu Korahais) completely changed my views - my allergy symptoms have become much more mitigated, and I feel more relaxed and mentally clear throughout life. Martial arts and combat training is always related to the external (tensing their muscles, grunting, straining, taking hits), which turns more "physically incapable" people away from martial arts; personally, I think this is just all show and no go - at least compared to what energy work can offer. Hello Seatle185, Nice to see another member from the Austin area. I agree that proper Taijiquan practitioner tend to have one of the best internal developments for martial arts. Unfortunately, I have been looking into learning force training alone to support my current martial arts (Northern long fist), rather than learning another style altogether. At my request, Sifu Gu actually said that he couldn't teach me Qigong alone, as he was focusing on teaching Taijiquan as a whole system. Therefore, off to look for another teacher I may end up learning Sheng Zhen, but I have my doubts. Any further recommendations? Edit: I actually read somewhere that "external" kung fu styles also used to extensively train internal force. Northern shaolin masters in the past potentially could have developed their force practicing arts such as numerous variations of 18 Lohan gong. Some masters who were lucky even had access to Lightness arts.

Thank you so much for your reply, steve. Just one question, since you recommended me to learn from a internal martial arts teacher: Would Taijiquan, or qigong related to taijiquan, compatible to other "external" martial arts? (ex: long fist, tan tui) Some northern chinese martial arts schools dedicated to internal work practice stuff like 18 Lohan Art/Hands; wouldn't incorporating Taijiquan qigong have similar effects? Some people think Taijiquan and "external" martial arts are completely incompatible. Thank you for your recommendation, liminal_luke, I most likely will start off with qigong work in Taijiquan, but will end up learning one or two meditation forms from Master Li - if I have the chance.

Hello everybody, Just wanted to thank you all for letting me join this community. I have been interested in martial arts & internal cultivation for a long time, but I have very limited experience (in internal cultivation even more so). That prompted me to join this community and seek guidance. Hoping to enjoy being a part of this community. Thank you!