dionysiac

Isn’t the topic of this discussion, at least partially, the issue concerning the existence of those who exploit the spiritual yearning of others in order to obtain the capital that underwrites their own elevated lifestyle? I take the issue seriously enough to be honest about it.

Starjumper is a perfect example of why those who seek truth should be wary of a self proclaimed “master” that makes a living from selling their cult of personailty/brand. It’s not a coincidence that those who suddenly appear so quickly to defend the practice of exchanging money for salvation often seem to have their own hand in the cookie jar.

I think a key distinction is not being made here: Accepting money is very different than charging money. One is optional and the other is not.

Exactly. That is the beauty of the monastic tradition which is the only way I have ever seen this issue somewhat resolved. It's a social contract that is hard to create in the modern world. The lay people must work to survive which means that they do not have the ability to dive deep into spiritual thought. So then a class of monks is created so that some members of their society can devote their lives to spiritual development. A lot of trust is needed since the monks depend on the charity of the lay people to survive and the lay people depend on the monks to guide them spiritually. And when monks grow old and sick there is a stable structure that supports them within the monastery. This works well if everyone stays honest and true but there are many historical instances of corrupt institutions. It still seems like the best option though. The issue is that in modern society we are so disconnected from one another that this social contract has been broken but not replaced. I do also see a major difference between monastic teachers vs retail, everyday teachers.

That is the most common retort by so called Taoists that sell exorcisms and related "services". I guess I would suggest that someone get a job or create something to sell in order to buy clothes and food. Sell art. Sell woodcrafts. Cultivate vegetables to sell etc. Nothing corrupt about any of that (maybe art heh). The fact that requesting money casts doubt on your teachings is in itself a reason NOT to accept money, if only out of respect for your tradition. To not give any impression of corruption protects the integrity of your teachings. Since the topic is about how to distinguish between charlatans and true teachers how would you discern the true intentions of a teacher? There is a long history of scam artists and cult leaders using VERY persuasive methods to convince followers of their truth so what makes you think that you could tell the difference? "Do not race after riches, do not risk your life for success, or you will let slip the Heaven within you." Taoism. Chuang Tzu 29

It gets muddy quickly huh? It's not the money transfer itself, it is the problem with being able to assess someones true motives without being a mind reader. The only way to be sure is to eliminate the money aspect altogether. Requesting donations and not a fee seems to help with this issue.

One theme I tend to follow is if the "teacher" is asking for money then I take any guidance with a grain of salt. Teachers with systems that only they can decipher seem suspect. What teacher who takes money will ever admit that their wisdom is free to anyone who listens?

I'm in a saxamaphone kinda mood

Humans are to the earth organism what cells are to the human organism? Pieces of a whole, all playing our part? Doesn't Kant touch on the limitations of observing a system from within that system? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critique_of_Pure_Reason We can never accurately conceive of humanity from an objective POV so why bother? Just sing along and play at being human the best that you can! And honestly I don't know how we can assume that the Human species is the pinnacle of life and somehow "above" other animals... we just make that assumption since we can't communicate with anything outside of our own species! An octopus can't debate you!

Nature in the sense that I used the term was meant more as that which is outside of human ideas. You're right that humanity is nature and a lot can be learned by observing humanity itself. In the Tao Te Ching we have the words of a human (humans?) that walked the path. It is the most minimal expression of the idea of Tao that I have found and because of that minimalism it is, in my mind, not as likely to hold as many personal and political biases as are found in its later analysis. Every time you try to pin down Tao with words you end up missing the point. I really feel and see that in the world around me. It's my experience that spirit can be found within and you have it at all times. If a teacher helps to guide you than that is great. Could you explain more about "The fact that I feel reluctant to go all the way is probably a good indicator that I have to and that I get an estimate of how valuable it is.."? I would like to understand what brings you to this conclusion. After all, I feel reluctant to do many things that are probably harmful to myself and others so how do you differentiate?

I have always thought about teachers as useful if they are useful and useless if they are not! Their value can shift moment to moment and is not dependent on any individual being THE teacher at all times. I really believe if any human was so evolved that they had special access to "ultimate truth" then they wouldn't spend their time preaching and setting up worldly institutions and power structures that just seem to create more dogma and confusion. I can learn more from an animal than most "teachers" I see in everyday life. I think a good indication of false teaching is a fixation on materialism. Objects, endless symbolism, dogma, words and especially $$ are all distractions from what I feel is true. Any material object can never be a requirement of finding truth or else we would have to write off a man with no possessions as lost forever. If a man alone and naked in the jungle cannot access "it" then that is not the truth I am looking for. I see so many potential paths with no real way of discerning (unless you test for yourself which could easily lead to a dead end after wasting years of your life) that I can only feel comfortable staying away from following most people claiming to have truth. If you remove all false paths all that can be left is truth, so I think the safe bet is always nature itself.

New guy over here! Short story: Almost 20 years ago I had what I consider an epiphany based on my imperfect understanding of the Tao Te Ching. I have since explored many paths that all seem to bring me right back to where I already was. I am always open to what little glimpses of truth I can find and wanted to connect with others who could possibly relate to the Taoist ideas I try to use as guidance in my life.