Aetherous

I don't know...I kind of want to get feedback from everyone if they care to take the time... Is what I said really that offensive? I'm asking honestly because in the past I've had trouble with friendships. Not knowing where the boundaries are. I'd like to improve. Should I not call my friends out if they're being hypocritical? If it's okay to do it, then did I do it in a bad way? I was honestly trying to be nice about it...and I guess it came off arrogant and condescending...but how else could I have said it, if such a thing is allowed to be said between friends?

Yeah, sometimes I don't know how to treat friends well. You're right.

I will take that advice.

Yeah man...he's got a great voice. And doing old Italian pop with a live orchestra or whatever it's called, that's a lot of fun. I'd love to see one of their shows.

Seems so. I'm in the same boat. By the time I make it to the next workshop, which will hopefully happen in May, it will have been a whole year. If you decide to go, make it to that one...a lot of good bums go to the NJ ones. We can help eachother out with expenses (more people going in on a hotel room is very helpful). These are very powerful practices that sometimes may require some help. For instance, if I practice level one for a few days, I start getting in bad shape health wise. Without anyone helping me, I will either hurt myself attempting to push through it, or stop practicing the 3 levels from the book. I need some real advice on how I can continue. Everyone is led from within on the best course of action, but that's no substitute for getting help directly from someone who has tons of experience. Max might simply say, "Be celibate" and that would solve my problems. Who knows! So...having a guide can make it easier at times. I think the reason why it was advertised that you only need to see Max once, is because the practices are so that you can do them on your own. You don't need to keep learning new things once you have the basics. Plus a lot of seekers rely way too much on their teachers, expecting them to do the whole path for them. So this way it's up to the practitioner to practice! Also, I think they never wanted it to be a follow-Max-around thing.

I know I'm full of it. I look forward to that day as well.

1) Hit the switch. 2) Don't kill the guy, and let the others die.

Gloria, I consider us to be friends...more like real friends and not the pay-for-time-with friends. We've shared stuff. So I will go out on a limb (at the risk of the branch breaking), and say what's on my mind about this... It's not bad to be broken. In fact I think everyone is, and it's fun to try and put ourselves back together. It enriches our lives. So it's great to listen to suggestions from people that care for you. And I am pretty sure Cam is one of those people...I can feel it. At times it's very hard to accept what other people see in you...for instance with myself, my mom keeps hinting that I should get married and meet a girl. Like every day, to the point where it exhausts me to be around her. But despite that being really kind of rude for her to do, she's right and it's helpful advice. I need to open myself to that area of my life more. So someone that's trying to help you by giving their analysis on you, whether they're your friend or not, is a good thing. And if you are truly letting things go, then it doesn't matter if people try to fix you. The correct response would be to radiate peace and say nothing...because is it so offensive if someone tries to extend a helping hand? Everyone's imperfect...but at least they're trying to do something good based on their limited perspective. Right? When I said before that "our opinions reveal our faults to everyone", I meant that when you react so strongly to someone saying something about you, it shows how much you haven't let go of anything. It's very clear to anyone reading what you type, that there are still some very big issues. I just have to point out how hypocritical it is, to say "don't help me because you're not qualified; now here is some advice for you..." Also, you're attempting to change the way Cam is. If you were only focusing on yourself and not others, you wouldn't feel the need to do that. Taking our own advice is tough, and I rarely do it...but it's something that's good to be aware of, so that we might be able to do it more. It'll be good for us. That being said, were you right in giving Cameron the advice you just gave? I mean, did he ask for your help? Did you weigh it in your heart and gut whether you could actually be the person who should be trying to help him with his issues? If not...then in taking your own advice, it would've been best to have just left it alone, because he isn't broken and doesn't need the WAAambulance. Seriously, accepting constructive criticism is hard sometimes...especially when it's hitting that sore spot in your heart. And saying this in a public forum is hard, too...because I know you'll be mad and it'll risk our friendship. But what else can a true friend do, except call you out on your BS? Who else could possibly do it? Hopefully we can laugh about it soon enough.

Really nice intro to phowa. The lama seems like a good guy.

It's not in our control to let go. No one is ever done learning. Our opinions reveal our faults to everyone.

In reality, it's the other way around.

Nice insights in those last two posts.

I had a pretty amazing experience once where blood came out. It was about 3-4 fingers posterior to the hair line. More in front of the actual crown area. I think the acupoint is called "fontanelle spot" or something similar. I think it's really spiritual materialism. Blood coming out and having a hole...those are just signs. The actual thing that matters is what's happening in terms of your spirit.

I for one enjoy the site. Of course we don't have to agree with it to enjoy it, and think of it as well written and thought out. It's just another way of looking at the qi phenomenon. Of course it's really fear based and not true (in my opinion). But reading such an opposing viewpoint can reveal great things to us about our own practice. Like...if someone is getting negative effects, then maybe something is wrong! Also it brings up a great point - should we get into something we think is detrimental to our souls (really)...such as bowing to a statue? Obviously if we think something is wrong, then it will be wrong for us! A side note: I've had some Muslim friends tell me more about jinns and apparently the author doesn't understand what they actually are. So at least according to my friends, jinns are not qi. In my personal experience, neigong practices have revealed more of my own Christian spirituality. It's experiential now, instead of just theoretical. To me, qi is more like the power of God running through the body. And if you actually read the Bible, there are many accounts of God's power working through people. I mean, has this author actually opened the Old Testament...with Moses parting the Red Sea...has he seen those parts in the New Testament where Jesus walks on water...? But regardless...I think it's a good read, and I enjoy to look at it from time to time.

I agree that seeing a physical therapist would probably be best.

YM, 1) I don't think I ever used "rational" as "rationale". You're just being condescending for no decent reason there. Why? Can we have a discussion without that? 2) I disagree that it would be the same as saying, "Heavenly horses are the hands: oh gosh, Max has TWO hands..." etc. It's not the same at all. What you've said would be completely idiotic, and in my opinion isn't anything like what I suggested! Now, you may view me as completely idiotic, but the fact of the matter is that my argument was never THAT dimwitted. 3) Let me ask a few questions: why is the point below the nose named "mountain stream"? Why are the hands called "heavenly horses"? Why are the two points of the inner eyebrows referred to as "heavenly blossoms" and why is the area between the eyebrows named the "heavenly court"? Are the names completely meaningless, or might there actually be a reason why they were called those things? I seriously hope you answer these questions. Because it's interesting that the way I view the poem actually makes some sense of why these names are what they are. "Mountain stream" refers to the purity of the heavenly energy, as well as discussing the body like a mountain. "Heavenly horses" could be thought to refer to the guiding effect that the hands have on this energy...how it pulls this force down through the mountain. "Twin blossoms" could refer to the relaxation and opening sensation necessary to open the "heavenly court" between the eyes. These are just my ideas...they may be wrong, but at least they make a little bit of sense. Is there another explanation for why these points are named what they are? Well the article says so. Why should I not trust the commentators on that point? It's just a clue I have to work with. Are you kidding me, that you're saying some of the highest revelations in the Maoshan tradition are to massage the point under the nose? Obviously anyone who came up with that idea wasn't exposed to what the poet's actual meaning was. Not saying that I've actually understood it. I just have some different ideas about what it could mean. I haven't made up what I've experienced...why are you so rude when you simply disagree? It's rude to assume I've made something up from fantasy, like a delusional, spiritual-experience-needing idiot. I'm truly not that way at all. If that's how you view me...then I will just stop. We've already discussed the article so there's no point to continue that type of discussion. Offending eachother will really get us nowhere. So "And come to visit the home of Great Perfection" was simply about counteracting weakness of sight and vision? Really, I think a lot of people have missed the point that the poem was trying to convey. Even in the article, Russel admits that not much is known. They are going at it purely from a scholarly point of view, rather than a pragmatic or experiential view. They're connecting the dots, when not all of the dots are there yet... Yes, I am now compelled to be utterly disrespectful to everyone who I disagree with...and wish to now close my mind off to anything other than what I think is true, and/or what scholars write in articles. Just kidding...yes, I'll admit that I may be way off in my interpretation. I have no delusions about being absolutely right. It's just another way of looking at the poem, which to be clear, hasn't been totally understood yet by anyone.

YM, Yes I agree that "heavenly horse" is the hands, but I don't think pressing (acupressure) is the actual original meaning. My personal opinion is that pressing meant to put your attention on the hands. That way, it kind of pulls the heavenly energy through the body...the hands are kind of like a magnet, or like a horse pulling something along its path. But yeah that's just totally my own interpretation based off of my practice. No scholarly reason for thinking that. It could be true that such is the correct way to apply the ideas in the poem...or it could be that those commentators were way off. I just find it interesting that there's a different way to do it, which actually works. For someone to apply those acupressure points, would they get the same effect? I know I didn't. For the sake of this argument, I obviously lose. I'm no scholar on this stuff. However, now differing points of view are here for people to see...and I think that's a good thing.

YM, I don't think we do. To me it seems like you're just not listening to my rationale. It's all good. Not a big deal. I'm sure if we met in real life we'd have fun and this wouldn't be an issue. Well yes that's definitely my opinion. But I don't think it's just a reinterpretation of the article. I think the article is a misinterpretation of the poem. It seems pretty clear to me that the actual teachings were hidden, and the article attempts to make sense of the little that was revealed...and fails pretty bad. We come to the conclusion that you're supposed to use your hands to massage these points on your face. But is that really what the Maoshan revelations are all about? It definitely seems like someone was "taught actual Maoshan," when they come along and give the right way to do it...which was not written about in any book before, and which actually works. However, everyone is welcome to disagree. But just because they do, it doesn't make them rational. Generally, people who are rational give reasons for why they disagree with something. I'll agree with that! My only argument is that Max was taught actual "secret" Maoshan practices and teachings. I have no idea if he's actually in the lineage.

That was precisely my line of thought.

YM, This is kind of offensive to anyone who disagrees with you! I for one don't merely rely on *feeling* to make decisions. I consider myself to be pretty rational when it comes to what I believe in. If you look at http://www.cic.sfu.ca/nacc/articles/secret...retanttext.html , it's interesting how many people seem to think that the secret of this poem was to push on the spot under the nose...like acupressure. But Max says to smile, and that it opens the crown (it's interesting, that point on the face is called "mountain spring", and like a pure mountain spring, the heaven energy of the crown comes down like a mountain spring through you when this point is activated (bad explanation but it should make sense to someone with experience)). Smiling in the right way spreads open this point instead of just agitating it. Also, if you watch the video of Max and look at his eye area, it's open (the inner eyebrow is up and out, yet it's all relaxed). Just like the, "twin blossoms issue from the heavenly court". So for one thing, this is a sign to me that he was taught actual Maoshan teachings. But about relying on your feelings... If the practice (red phoenix) was entirely made up and not from a real lineage, then it would make sense that it would do nothing...or at least do a little bit of something so that people could fool themselves into believing it was a real practice when it wasn't. But I've personally had experiences with it where my body would seem to disappear, or where my mind would completely be empty. It's not just that it's a feel good energetic practice...there's really something to it. Now, I don't really care if someone thinks it's a scam or not. I really don't...people should do whatever practices they like, and believe whatever they want. It's hard to say what's true. I'm just sharing my view and experience. Pretty much because it feels like an attack on my character (as well as the others who are into the practice). Me too... I don't see that as an analogy which fits.

It'd be cool to explore it as a group. I'm in!

San Antonio is one of the coolest cities I've ever been to.

You need to act like this guy: ol2TT75gpz4&feature=related In other words say something truly confusing and laugh in a crazy way.

Thanks farmerjoe... So in that link Xienkula posted his correspondence with the two main teachers:

It'd be just as hard for me to find them. I guess try searching "lum" or "maoshan" if you're really interested. YM Wong has his side of the argument and others have had theirs. I personally don't see a reason to doubt that it's actual Maoshan practices, having tried it and knowing a tiny bit from writings on Maoshan. I agree with Cameron...people will think what they want. Debating about whether the practice is legit or not is a huge waste of time. The people that don't think it's legit can leave it alone. The people that do can practice it. Or everyone can argue about it...but that's kind of gotten old now.