Harmen

17 minutes ago, Nintendao said:

Overall I ended up with this impression of 悔 as being like having to get lectured by your mother over something.

1 minute ago, Taomeow said:

 

You can't tell me to "read up" on anything, do you understand what I mean?  You could have a friendly discussion with me over whatever you disagree about and why and wherefore and maybe learn something in the process, but instead you spectacularly opened with "This is not true"and proceeded to lord it over to me as though you're appointing yourself my teacher or Bob my uncle or whatever else you think you are that is above and in the position to talk down to me.  Got enough mansplaining out of your system?  Scratched that itch?  Feel better now?  Good for you.  Now please stop already.

Well, from my point of view it really isn't true. And I have sources to back it up. For starters, you could begin reading the articles in the 'forum' of  Early China 14 (Vol. 14, 1989 of Early China on JSTOR), as well as this article by Dan Yuchen 單育辰, 《戰國卜筮簡“尚”的意義 —兼說先秦典籍中的“尚” 》.

From your point of view apparently it is true, but you don't explain why. Pity.

This is a discussion forum. Don't tell someone to stop discussing, simply because you don't have an appropriate reply. You can try to make it personal, but I'm not bothered by that.

1 minute ago, Taomeow said:

You are guided by a burning desire to win an argument

I am not 'guided', there is no 'burning desire', nor is there an argument to win. I simply disagree with your statement that you presented as if it is a fact, and I told you why. You, however, have only backed up your assumption by saying "others told me that this is how it is." That's not very helpful.

Read up on oracles and their usage in early China, and you will understand what I mean.

5 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

If you don't understand the difference between a beginner asking a question (which was what was being addressed -- I was trying to help a beginner find a useful and comprehensible approach to working with the oracle) and a seasoned, experienced, lineage taught  diviner and scholar using the I Ching in multiple ways toward multiple purposes as part of a routine relationship established with the oracle, you are, correct me if I'm wrong, of the former category. 

Irrelevant. You said, "You may want to rephrase the questions.  The I Ching can't answer any yes/no questions, nor any either/or questions." I disagree, and I told you why.

1 hour ago, Taomeow said:

 

Hmmm...   Semantics much.  

It can answer "any" question if you ask it correctly.  Whether you are able to ask it correctly is a different matter.

 

Is last Friday faster and more syphilis enabled than a purple wolf from the library of Alexandria's grand piano?  Yes or no?

 

In any event, next time I have a chance, I'll be sure to ask the President of Singapore to fire her I Ching diviner who told me what I told you, and hire you instead.  Too bad we can't also fire the Duke of Zhou, Confucius, the whole bunch of Eranos I Ching scholars and so on -- they told me the same thing, but it's too late to demand they repent for telling me what's not true.  Let's fire tao while at it too, she does not communicate in "yes/no" -- yin and yang are not "yes" and "no."  Why not.  If you know better, I'll learn from you, venerable master.  Just whistle.  

I appreciate your sarcasm. Just look at old examples of Yi usage, and oracles in general. Examine the oracle bones, and divination journals like the Baoshan manuscripts. You will see that there were no questions asked - the diviner stated a wish, or affirmation if you like. I don't know any (early Chinese) sources that show that the question or its phrasing was considered important. When in later times questions were asked (especially with the Wenwang Gua method), they were often phrased as yes/no questions. And no one ever objected to that. Saying that the Yi does not answer yes/no questions seems to be a typical Western attitude that is not backed up by early Chinese sources. Even Zhu Xi, in the incantation and rules that he gives in his Zhouyi Benyi, does not say anything about (the importance of) the question.

The character hui 悔 appears many times in the Zhouyi, the core text of the Book of Changes, and is often translated as 'regret'. A student asked me if I could tell a little bit more about this character, and although I already examined this character several times, new findings came up. 

Only watch this if you are really interested in the etymology of Chinese characters, otherwise it can be a bit boring to watch.

On 14-11-2020 at 10:14 PM, Taomeow said:

You may want to rephrase the questions.  The I Ching can't answer any yes/no questions, nor any either/or questions.  

That's not true. It can answer any question. Whether you are able to understand the answer is a different matter.

Apparently I can't make short videos. This video might be a little bit too long for some of my viewers, and also a bit boring. I have defined chapters in the description of the video on YouTube so you can jump through the video if you want.

5 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

the inquiring party had something like a stubborn cold at the time of inquiry.  Within a couple of weeks...

So the actual event as described by the text of the Yijing happened weeks after your interpretation? How did you interpret the hexagram at that time, as an answer to the statement 'I divine the most likely outcome of such-and-such local band changing its name to this-and-that.'? 

46 minutes ago, Taomeow said:

 

Q: I divine the most likely outcome of such-and-such local band changing its name to this-and-that.

 

What's your interpretation?   

That they should change their name to Eternal Undeath.

On 5-5-2020 at 4:47 PM, freeform said:

 

Yes you're right - 'truly random' is one of those esoteric mathematics things isn't it

 

However - the way I've been taught the Yi Jing, it involves using your intent in a particular way and at specific moments of the process.

 

Using yarrow stalks, as far as I understand gives a more accurate distribution of the rarer Gua - the coin equivalent has these rarer trigrams appear far more often.

I don't really care about the method that is used - I can interpret any hexagram regardless of the question or situation, I can always make it meaningful and relevant, no matter the hexagram that I get or how I get it. It is not so much about the method or the hexagram that you get - what matters is what you do with it.

So don't be bothered by statistics, math etc. Just trust that you will always get the answer that you need, and what you need will be meaningful and relevant to you.

1 hour ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

I rewatched the video and I think I found the answer. Just after minute 19 you mention the upper trigram refers to the "surrounding environment or other parties." Is this a fair assessment?

 

Yes 

1 minute ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Workings of YinYang is not detailed. That is primary to everything else.

Yin & Yang do not have any function in 河洛理數 (unless you can show me where it is explained in the original manuscript)

2 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

What is Qi? Book doesn't really show.

Qi is not mentioned in 河洛理數 (unless you can show me where it is explained in the original manuscript)

3 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Source of Wu Xing is not detailed.

Why should it? The 河洛理數 book doesn't either.

4 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

Source of Bagua is not detailed.

Why should it? The 河洛理數 book doesn't either. But maybe you can be more specific. What do you mean by 'source'? Otherwise said, what exactly were you expect to see covered in the book?

I agree that there are certain chapters in the 河洛理數 book of which a translation would have been helpful, especially the parts that cover the ten auspicious and inauspicious factors, as well as the chapter on the meaning of the Heavenly & Earthly numbers, Yuan Qi 元氣, Yuan Qi Xiang Fan 元氣相反, Hua Gong 化工 and Hua Gong Fan 化工反. But your vague statements make it sound as if you are not at all familiar with 河洛理數. I am well aware that the book of Sherrill & Chu has its flaws but as an introduction in to the original system, especially for someone who is interested in hexagrams as descriptions of persons & personalities, it will do.

1 minute ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

 

Typical western stuff.

 

That book isn't really accurate.

 

The generalizations it produces are the issue with further understanding change in I Ching.

 

Look back at parts about the Bagua, and about Wu Xing. 

 

Stuff is missing.

 

 

 

 

-VonKrankenhaus

I know it is not a complete translation of the original 河洛理數 manuscript and that the authors made significant changes to certain parts of the original material (which motivated me to wrote my own book about 河洛理數) but that does not mean this book is 'typical Western stuff'. Concerning accuracy: when you know your 八字 you can convert them to the 先天 and 後天 hexagram using this book. From there 'accuracy' is determined not by the book but by the user who applies the principles that are described. And the descriptions of the hexagrams are a fair translation of the Chinese original.

But maybe you can be more specific why you take issue with this book.

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

And short lived at the most enjoyable moment?

Oh yeah. 

1 minute ago, Apech said:

 

 

Say you are planning a birthday party.  The yang phase would be the planning and build up to the great day - putting energy in to make arrangements, buy presents, inviting guests and so on.  The day itself is the most energetic (old yang) but short lived and followed by the recovery period which would be the yin phase.

 

Not a great example but the best I can do off the top of my head

 

 

Good example, makes sense. Although what you describe also makes me think of another 'activity', from a male perspective, including foreplay and all that...

1 minute ago, Apech said:

My approach to understanding moving lines is from the basis that by combining yin and yang in pairs you get four types of lines.  Old yang (yang/yang), old yin (yin/yin), young yang (yang/yin) and young yin (yin/ yang).

 

If you take an example from nature like the phases of the moon.  The full moon would be represented by the old yang - moving line, and the new moon by the old yin - moving line.  Realistically an full moon last just one day or at a stretch three days to notice the difference, same with the new moon where you get an old crescent, a dark moon and then a new crescent - so that's six days out of the 28 day lunar cycle.  This leaves 22 days divided into 11 waxing and 11 waning.

 

So the moving old yin and old yang lines refer to a short lived maximum or minimum phase - while the young lines refer to a more apparently stable period of growing light or decreasing light.  However it is a fact that changing is occurring all through the cycle - it is just not as apparent because the at the maximum and minimum there is a reversal while in the waxing an waning phases it is very similar day on day for 11 days.

 

Another example would be a sine wave with very obvious peaks and troughs - in between a slow climb up and a slow climb down.  Although the rate of change is actually constant - the apparent change at the extremes is much more obvious.

 

Hope this makes sense

 

 

Hmmm...somewhat. I'm curious how you apply this in the application of the Yijing. Do you have a RL example?

6 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

Might be worth a look. I am not particularly interested in astrology but would be interested to see how they approach it. I am largely interested in the mechanics of change ... the dynamics of the trigrams and hexagrams.

 

I have long believed that the transformations in the hexagrams is important and suspected that other disciplines could map onto the hexagrams and use the transformations as a guide to understanding the discipline. I know that is a bit out there ... and I have been slapped back a couple of times for that view ... but it persists in the back of my mind.

 

Thanks, I'll continue to watch.

Actually the book has nothing to do with astrology - it is just called that because the result is somewhat similar to a horoscope. See attachment :-)

The_Astrology_of_I_Ching_-_Sherrill-Chu.pdf

41 minutes ago, OldDog said:

 

A thought crossed my mind as I was listening to the discussion on stable-unstable lines in the example of the trigrams. The qualities of those trigrams brought to mind people that I know that exhibit those qualities as part of their personality-makeup. Is there any tradition for using trigrams or hexagrams to describe the makeup of people or places? Don't know why that might be important. Just a thought.

Yes, the Heluo Lishu 河洛理數 manuscript contains descriptions of hexagrams as character traits or persons. It has been translated by W.Sherrill & Chu as The Astrology of I Ching. I don't entirely agree with the way they treated the manuscript but the part with the descriptions of the hexagrams is more or less okay.

33 minutes ago, OldDog said:

One of the things I find as troubling is that, in your discussion of changing lines and balance, there seems to be an element of judgement that I am not grasping. I never thought of trigrams as having positive or negative qualities ... just qualities. That seems judgemental, which would suggest relative to some point of view. But I think I am beginning to see the point about relative yin-ness or yang-ness quality of lines and their stability ...  or balance as you call it. I have to do some more study on this.

Good idea :-) No doubt there are other ways to look at moving lines and what they do to trigrams. The main goal of my video is to stimulate the viewers to look at changing trigrams instead of solely looking at changing hexagrams and moving lines as individual entities that don't have any relationship with other parts of the hexagram. 

8 minutes ago, Apech said:

Hi,

 

That was very interesting.  One thing I was not sure about though, was that you seem to take the 'imbalance' of the moving line as a negative thing.  But the fullness of the maximum or minimum state, like a full moon or the summer solstice, while it does indicate there is only one way to go i.e. decrease ... surely this is still part of the natural flow of things and not necessarily negative. ???

You are right. What I show in the video is how I began to see changing lines and changing trigrams  when I tried to find a way to put them to use - that too much of yin or yang imbalance the trigrams, made them larger and exaggerate their qualities. After more than 35 years of studying the Yijing I find it very hard to let go of this view. But as you show this is not the only way to look at it. The aim of the video is to show my viewers that trigrams can change and that this change has meaning. How this change can be interpreted is an interesting journey to explore and I would like to encourage every Yijing user to do that.