Harmen

1 minute ago, Limahong said:

Moonlight <= moon.

Technically speaking there is no such thing as 'moonlight'...

"In terms of the structure and function of the universe, the foundational Daoist cosmology parallels that of pre-modern Chinese society and culture, and it centers on yin-yang and the Five Phases. This cosmology is not Daoist per se. It is best understood as “traditional Chinese cosmology” or part of the dominant “traditional Chinese worldview,” as it was the primary cosmological viewpoint in traditional China. This cosmology is based on the principles and forces of yin-yang, which we encountered above in the classical Daoist cosmogonic account. Etymologically speaking, yin 陰 depicts a hill (fu 阜) covered by shadows (yin 侌), while yang 陽 depicts a hill (fu 阜) covered by sunlight (yang 昜). At the root level, yin and yang are ways of speaking about the same place at different times or moments of the day. Yin and yang are not “polar opposites” or antagonistic substances; they are, in fact, complementary principles, aspects, or forces. As the characters suggest, yin and yang are used to represent different dimensions of the same phenomenon or situation. By extension, there are various associations:

yin/female/earth/moon/dark/death/cold/moist/heavy/turbidity/ descent/rest/inward yang/male/heavens/sun/light/life/hot/dry/light/clarity/ascent/ activity/outward

At times, “yin” is also used to designate “negative” or harmful aspects of life more generally (immorality, ugliness, disease, etc.), while “yang” becomes related to “positive” or beneficial aspects of life (morality, beauty, health, etc.). What must be emphasized is that these are relative associations, not absolute characteristics. They do not parallel conventional views of so-called “good” and “evil” as distinct ontological categories. Just because women are considered “yin” in one respect or in one context, it does not follow that they are also “immoral” or “turbid.” There are also varying degrees of yin and yang in every phenomenon, in each moment or experience, and in every being. So, certain men may be more yin than certain women, and vice versa. People in one context may be more yang (e.g. talkative or hot), while in another that same person may be quite yin (e.g. quiet or cold). Because the universe is understood as a transformative process, this also means that any negative or harmful pattern or manifestation may be transformed into a positive or beneficial pattern or manifestation. In the context of a classical Chinese worldview in general and Daoism in particular, life is seen as depending on the mutually beneficial interaction of yin and yang. Even when Daoists speak of entities like “demons” (mo) or “ghosts” (gui), “yin entities,” they generally understand them to be a momentary, unresolved energetic pattern capable of transformation into a more beneficial pattern. Generally speaking, such beings are not irrevocably lost or distorted. A skilled Daoist priest may assist their transformation.

Here we should also note that yin and yang take on specific and alternative meanings in certain contexts. For example, in many internal alchemy (neidan) lineages, yin appears to be defined negatively, while yang appears to be defined positively. A distinction must be made between yin-yang as cosmological principles, and yin-yang as alchemical map, specifically as a map of alchemical transformation. That is, there are cosmological and alchemical interpretations and applications of yin-yang, with the associations varying depending on system and context. The cosmological dimension cannot be changed—it is the underlying structure of cosmos. However, on an existential and alchemical level, yin may designate mortality, defilements, delusion, and so forth; yang may designate immortality, purity, realization, and so forth. Internal alchemists thus frequently speak of transforming yin into yang, of becoming a yang-spirit, a pure yang being. This does not mean that one transcends the foundational cosmological harmony of yin and yang. In fact, classical Daoism and the foundational Daoist worldview urge one to “embrace the feminine,” understood as correlative with “yin qualities” (flexibility, passivity, receptivity, silence, etc.). Rather, it means that the internal alchemist works to become a perfected being in which all negative characteristics have been transformed into their positive counterparts. "

- Louis Komjathy, Daoism. A Guide for the Perplexed, p. 90-92

4 minutes ago, Limahong said:

Yinny and I are absolute yin and yang.

Personally I don't believe something like 'absolute yin and yang' exists.

17 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

The Wu in Wu Xing are not even actually specific "things".

Wuxing 五行 is another concept (and another wu, the wu of 'five'.) 

19 minutes ago, vonkrankenhaus said:

As things appear, they HAVE YinYang - they HAVE polarity - an Up/Down, Left/Right, Begin/End, etc.

Hmmm... I'm not sure if they 'have' it. After all, it is all relative and depends on the point of view. Currently I am sitting on my chair, not moving. And yet I am moving, because the Earth is moving (go away FlatEarthers.) So I am moving not-moving. 

15 minutes ago, Limahong said:

I am an absolute male.

What is 'an absolute male'? Both sexes have oestrogen as well as testosterone in their bodies...

2 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

This means that yin and yang are adjectives, possibly adverbs, and not nouns. When we speak of "yin energy" for example this is not "energy of yin", but rather "energy with a yin quality". Frankly, this is revolutionary. It changes my entire outlook on the subject.

This also ties in with the notion that yin and yang are relative:

In this case grey would be yang and black would be yin.

But here grey would be yin and white would be yang.

Although there are no absolute yin or yang 物, I think.

34 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

 

Does this not imply that yang and yin - in and of themselves - don't actually exist and are instead attributes which must be applied only to things?

I'm not sure if they must be applied only to things. But yes, I think yin and yang are qualities.

9 hours ago, Lost in Translation said:

One item that I don't see Wilhelm comment upon specifically is the wording light things and dark things. I find it odd that there are things with the quality of light and dark.

乾.陽物也.坤.陰物也.
Qian is yang things. Kun is yin things. 

As you see the text does not talk about 'light' or 'dark' (which are just two aspects of yin and yang.) Wu 物 can refer to every (living) thing. So what the text might mean is that Qian is everything that is yang by nature whereas Kun is everything that is yin by nature.

1 minute ago, wandelaar said:

Is there also a modern perspective on chances that would account for appropriate answers of the I Ching.

I'll leave that question to others - I'm not in to the modern stuff 

6 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

https://www.amazon.com/Development-Decline-Chinese-Cosmology/dp/0982321244

 

Maybe this book is relevant?

Hmmmm.... no, not really.

34 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

OK - but now as regards the consultation of the I Ching by ordinary people about day to day problems. How are those results explained by the ganying doctrine?

I fail to find actual sources for this so maybe I am not quite right with the context of ganying and the Yi. My memory tells me that the response of the Yi was seen as a ganying to the situation of the questioner - an inherently bad situation (or attitude/character) would result in an inauspicious outcome. But maybe I am wrong. Nevertheless, this comes quite close to the usage of oracles during the Shang dynasty. When an oracle predicted that a battle would be lost the king would give as many offerings as necessary to get the ancestors on his side. If after the offerings the oracle predicted that the ancestors approved he knew he could not lose any more.

4 hours ago, wandelaar said:

Ah! So according to the ganying doctrine everything happens harmonious and regular as long as (important) people don't cause disturbances by acting immoral or outrageous, but when (important) people do act immoral or outrageous than catastrophic events will happen that we in the modern western world would consider as chance-events. And that's why events that deviate from the known regular and harmonious patterns were looked upon - in Han-China - as possible messages. Do I understand correctly?

Yes - when it was in the messenger's interest to proclaim the portent to the emperor. When the emperor needed to be reprimanded the people saw a lot of portents. When everything went okay there were 1) not much portents and/or 2) nobody took care to notice them and a collapsing wall was just a collapsing wall. For more info on portents in ancient China see Rafe De Crespigny, Portents of protest in the later Han dynasty - the memorials of Hsiang K'ai to emperor Huan and Tiziana Lippiello, Auspicious Omens and Miracles in Ancient China : Han, Three Kingdoms and Six Dynasties.

I would like to offer a piece on ganying 感應, 'resonance/response', a Han dynasty perspective that is sometimes linked to the Yijing (see Richard Smith, Fathoming the Cosmos and Ordering the World, p. 101-102.) These pages are from Licia Di Giacinto, By Chance of History: The Apocrypha under the Han (dissertation). Events that we would regard as happening by chance were regarded as a response to the functioning of the emperor. Likewise the answers from the Yi were (by some philosophers) seen as responses from a higher principle (though not necessarily a god, deity, ghost etc.)

ganying.pdf

1 minute ago, rideforever said:

When you are insincere and you ask a question .... how should the I Ching respond to you ?

 

Should it take your question at face value ?

No, because you are in a bad state and the I Ching tries to give you what you need, that is it's purpose, to help existence.

If you do not understand the answer it most likely means you are in a bad state and corruption is active within you.

Try to listen to what it says.

It seems you are deciding for the book how and when it should answer you. You are attaching certain prerequisites or conditions to its value. I think a good oracle works best without humans predefining its framework.

3 minutes ago, Bindi said:

I can't imagine any direct association exists between random answers to any specific question beyond chance.

Exactly. But that doesn't mean that the answer cannot be made meaningful. The Western perspective often is 'it happened by chance and therefore does not have any relevant meaning.' The early Chinese point of view is more like 'it happened by chance and therefore has relevant meaning.'

It's a different perspective on the value of chance.

1 minute ago, rideforever said:

Sometimes the I Ching answers your question, sometime it speaks directly to you because your real question is hidden.
Sometimes you are insincere and the I Ching does not answer.

1. The Yijing always answers your question. Otherwise it would be a stupid oracle. Imagine what would happen to a diviner at the Chinese emperor's court, when the king asked the oracle if he would win the war, and the diviner replied "let's talk about your grandmother." An oracle always answers the question. If you don't understand the answer: don't blame the oracle.

2. Even when you are insincere the Yi will answer your question. Whether this is to your advantage, especially on the long term,  depends on your own point of view. And that is not because of the Yi but simply because insincerity most of the time does not lead to anything good.

8 hours ago, wandelaar said:

https://translate.google.nl/#nl/en/Lijn 3%3A Dichtbij herten%2C maar zonder voorbereid te zijn. Overwegend om midden het bos in te gaan. De edele schijnt bijna niet te stoppen. Verder gaan is inadequaat. Een bijzondere gelegenheid doet zich voor%2C waar men echter niet op voorbereid is. Om hiervan gebruik te maken is het noodzakelijk zich diep in een onbekende situatie te begeven. Dit is niet zo'n goed idee%2C men dient de verleiding te weerstaan.

 

This is part prediction, part warning. But at least today nothing of the kind happened. Do you thinks all aspects of the hexagram's meaning always somehow apply?

In theory: yes, but in practice it is not always realistic to give relevant meaning to literally every aspect. You mainly work with that to which your attention is drawn.

About the text you quoted: several things are going on here. First, the second paragraph is the commentary/interpretation of the translator. That is NOT the text nor they answer of the Yi so you can skip that. Second, the translation is....weird. Third, the Chinese text 即鹿無虞。惟入于林中。君子幾不如舍。往吝。 can be read in several ways: as a prediction, but also as an advice, as a warning etc. 

Se also here https://www.yjcn.nl/wp/hexagram-3-line-3/

4 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

But basically this topic is meant to be on what to do with hexagrams that don't seem to answer the questions asked.So maybe we could now focus on that?

In my opinion the Yi always answers the question asked so when it seems as if it didn't it is best to ask your self "what am I missing or not seeing?" You can blame the Yi for not answering your question but that will not help you in any way. I'd say, look for aspects in the answer that might further your comprehension, and return to what you asked. If you want to know 'what to do'  then every element of the answer should point in that direction. Trigrams, lines etc. The Yi is more than text. 

1 minute ago, wandelaar said:

As I understood that in ancient times the I Ching was simply asked for advise on an upcoming event without asking any exactly formulated question, I didn't do so either.

Yes, that is true, or they phrased a wish: "would it that I become king". In my opinion the question is not really important. You always get what you need.

2 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

give me some advise about how to deal with it...

You asked 'how to deal with it'. Which is a different from 'what will happen' which you seem to imply in your initial post. What did you want to know? 'What will happen' or 'how should I deal with it'?

4 minutes ago, Lost in Translation said:

Vague questions yield vague responses.

This is where I disagree. It is not the response that becomes vague but the interpretation of the user. A hexagram is more than just the answer to the question, as can be seen with yes/no questions which hardly ever receive yes or no as an answer. If it were like that you could just flip a coin. The hexagram is always right, but if you don't know what you want to know you will be like a 羝羊觸藩 - a ram that got stuck in the fence.

1 hour ago, wandelaar said:

Consider the following case:

 

You consult the I Ching about an upcoming event and the hexagram you get seems to give a clear warning about what could go wrong. But the way the event actually turns out is quite different. Do you then leave it at that? Or do you look for another meaning of the hexagram? Or do you perhaps consider the hexagram to apply to another situation or question than originally asked? 

 

This is one of the reasons why I don't try to predict the future or aspects of it. Too tricky. I once was able to pinpoint the location of a lost book. That is how far I am willing to take it.

Having said that, if you accept that the answer of the Yi always applies and that it can't be wrong than you might have to think about your interpretation. This reminds me of one of my students who called me yesterday because she did a consultation for a client and this client did not recognize anything that my student said. It turned out that the interpretation of the students was simply wrong - the question was 'what to do' but the student interpreted the answer of the Yi as a description of the current situation. That was not what was asked, hence the complete misunderstanding.

This is different from your situation of course, but it goes to show that the devil can be in the details: what did you ask and are you able to see the hexagram or its parts in the actual situation? In most cases it is a matter of perspective. Which is what makes predicting the future difficult with the Yi and why additional systems like Wenwang Gua were attached to it to facilitate that kind of use of the book.

I looked in the 易學大辭典 (which is to me what the Junior Woodchucks Guidebook is to Huey, Dewey, and Louie) and it does not mention gender and hexagrams. My personal choice would be to consider the odd-numbered hexagrams male and the even-numbered hexagrams female.

In the Bagong 八宮 system by Jing Fang 京方 each House has a Phase (from the Five Phases) connected to it, based on the Palace hexagram, the first hexagram in each Palace which is a 純卦 hexagram made of twice the same trigram and this trigram has a Phase connected to it which it transfers to all other hexagrams within that Palace (I think this is the worst description I have ever given about it. See my paper, p. 13). By analogy you could also say the the gender of that trigram is transferred to all the other hexagram within each Palace.

But this is just an idea that is as good or bad as any other idea. The Chinese probably did not think about hexagrams as male or female because this concept is already found in the individual lines.

I have 7 books about Yijing& TCM and none of them link the hexagrams to organs or other parts of the body. This is not surprising because for TCM almost only the trigrams combined with the Five Elements/Phases are being used. Last year I gave a workshop to acupuncturists about the Yijing as a tool for diagnosis in TCM, which focused on the Wenwanggua system. This system looks at the so-called Officer & Ghost line as the cause of the disease and the Children line as the treatment or medicine. All lines have the Five Phases connected to them and the Phase that is on the O&G line points to the organ system that is malfunctioning. The trigram in which the O&G line is residing also helps to find the cause of the ailment.

But all this has more to do with the Wuxing and trigrams than with the hexagrams.

Of course I could also say that the 六十四卦與身體部位 method is a secret within the Zhenmeng 真蒙 lineage of 道家 that I follow. That kind of nonsense always works very well and never fails to impress.

6 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

If you study the king wen order of the yijing, it becomes clear that it is ordered in the form of pairs, that is a male and female version of a hexagram. Hexagram 4 is the reverse (opposite gender) of hexagram 3, hexagram 6 is the reverse of hexagram 5, and so on.

 

But I want to know, which one is the female, and which is the male?

Just to be clear: you are explicitly talking about 'male' and 'female' which is not the same as 'yin' and 'yang'. It is your aim to attach genders to hexagrams?

6 hours ago, Phoenix3 said:

 

Hello, any luck?  

As I said, it might take some time. Don't push please. Pushing is very demotivating.

9 minutes ago, wandelaar said:

Here it is called "shuffling the yarrow-stalks":

 

https://books.google.nl/books?id=eRBXJThEuJsC&pg=PA21&lpg=PA21&dq=book+monkey+yarrow+stalks&source=bl&ots=sxhAz6ILfZ&sig=P5FWikBKUbabgoFynZ0Pwc8Nu6Y&hl=nl&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwic8u3X2I_cAhULJ1AKHdq_CLsQ6AEIVzAI#v=onepage&q=book monkey yarrow stalks&f=false

I have looked up the relevant passage in the Chinese original, starting with 'There are three hundred and sixty schools of wisdom':

祖師道：「『道』字門中有三百六十傍門，傍門皆有正果。不知你學那一門哩？」 悟空道：「憑尊師意思，弟子傾心聽從。」祖師道：「我教你個『術』字門中之 道，如何？」悟空道：「術門之道怎麼說？」祖師道：「術字門中，乃是些請仙 、扶鸞、問卜、揲蓍，能知趨吉避凶之理。」悟空道：「似這般可得長生麼？」 祖師道：「不能，不能。」悟空道：「不學，不學。」
 

What is translated as 'shuffling the yarrow-stalks' is actually sheshi 揲蓍; 揲 is almost exclusively used in combination with 蓍 'yarrow' and in this combination it simply means 'to consult/sort/divide/take the yarrow'. At least 'shuffling' is a better translation than 'throwing'.