taoteching99

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Hi fellow dharma friends, Dont mind if i quote this as i want to have fruitful discussion so as to have better understanding of it . Heres the quote : At the moment of the attainment of Buddhahood, the Buddha uttered the following two verses: Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha! Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained. * Kamasukhallikanuyoga and Attakiamathanuyoga. Metta

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Hi, thanks for your reply, The verses in pali : Dhammapada Verses 153 and 1541 Udana Vatthu Anekajatisamsaram sandhavissam anibbisam gahakaram gavesanto2 dukkha jati punappunam3. Gahakaraka ditthosi4 puna geham na kahasi5 sabba te phasuka bhagga6 gahakotam visankhatam7 visankharagatam cittam8 tanhanam khayamajjhaga9. In reply to ur last paragraph, firstly,i dont think the Buddha was referring to a Creator-God, as the tradition attributed (or so i thinks) this housebuilder to ignorance.If Creator is responsible for building this house,then it only make sense he (alone) will be having the power to " break the rafter ".If he cannot and it takes human effort (prince Siddharta) to do this, then what an impotent creator he is ☺ Buddhist tradition places huge emphasis on ignorance and non clinging as cause(or condition) of suffering.I do not want to discuss ignorance first,as it is still beyond my understanding why ignorance(not knowing) should have such primary importance in ending suffering.Prefer to discuss something when one personally has some experience of. As it is easier to see that non attachment leads to a reduced suffering,that is a good starting point, - nonclinging. Earlier i was having PM discusion with someone and the topic of not clinging came up.The pali verse in the exclamation is ' tanha ' . ( theres another one -upadana) Not having the urge to say anything further for now,i will stop here. Thanks again

At the moment of the attainment of Buddhahood, the Buddha uttered the following two verses: Verse 153: I, who have been seeking the builder of this house (body), failing to attain Enlightenment (Bodhi nana or Sabbannuta nana) which would enable me to find him, have wandered through innumerable births in samsara. To be born again and again is, indeed, dukkha! Verse 154: Oh house-builder! You are seen, you shall build no house (for me) again. All your rafters are broken, your roof-tree is destroyed. My mind has reached the unconditioned (i.e., Nibbana); the end of craving (Arahatta Phala) has been attained. * Kamasukhallikanuyoga and Attakiamathanuyoga. ............ What an experience ( of 'joy') by ('someone') he who ,finally , has reached the very end of the path ! ............

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This is someones explanation on the difference between 'Experience of Self' vs Authentic Self realization (as im not promoting the website or author of this article,theres no need to mention the source of it.) Curious.... 1. (What does the experience of this 'eureka ' , this 'a ha! ' (that the author mentioned) feels like? Anybody going through similar experience before? 2. Does the " a ha"/realization stays permanently? " One of the direct and immediate response I get after reading the articles by Rob Burbea and Rupert is that they missed one very and most important point when talking about the Eternal Witness Experience -- The Realization. They focus too much on the experience but overlook the realization. Honestly I do not like to make this distinction as I see realization also as a form of experience. However in this particular case, it seems appropriate as it could better illustrate what I am trying to convey. It also relates to the few occasions where you described to me your space-like experiences of Awareness and asked whether they correspond to the phase one insight of Eternal Witness. While your experiences are there, I told you ‘not exactly’ even though you told me you clearly experienced a pure sense of presence. So what is lacking? You do not lack the experience, you lack the realization. You may have the blissful sensation or feeling of vast and open spaciousness; you may experience a non-conceptual and objectless state; you may experience the mirror like clarity but all these experiences are not Realization. There is no ‘eureka’, no ‘aha’, no moment of immediate and intuitive illumination that you understood something undeniable and unshakable -- a conviction so powerful that no one, not even Buddha can sway you from this realization because the practitioner so clearly sees the truth of it. It is the direct and unshakable insight of ‘You’. This is the realization that a practitioner must have in order to realize the Zen satori. You will understand clearly why it is so difficult for those practitioners to forgo this ‘I AMness’ and accept the doctrine of anatta. Actually there is no forgoing of this ‘Witness’, it is rather a deepening of insight to include the non-dual, groundlessness and interconnectedness of our luminous nature. Like what Rob said, "keep the experience but refine the views". Lastly this realization is not an end by itself, it is the beginning. If we are truthful and not over exaggerate and get carried away by this initial glimpse, we will realize that we do not gain liberation from this realization; contrary we suffer more after this realization. However it is a powerful condition that motivates a practitioner to embark on a spiritual journey in search of true freedom. "

If you are practising any [ spiritual ] path ,or lets put it this way, you are doing certain practices, { could be some form of formal concentration practices on the cushion,like mindfulness of the breath in which u focus on the breath for some period of time,or yoga practices,perhaps metta is your choice,so u like to extend your lovingkindness towards every being ..etc...etc.. whatever that is } , and at this point, i dont care what your motivations are for the practice , { whether it you do it because you ve done it habitually , or you do it and thinking it will lead you to some strong experiences, enlightenment perhaps , or any other reason, or no reason at all ( is there such thing as doing something for no reason at all ?? -if have this is such an unconscious, habitual,animalistic, reactive doing ) .. } for what i want to know is this : 1. CAN YOU PRACTICE ALL (THOSE QUALITIES) TOGETHER AT THIS MOMENT? Even for just a single moment? Is that even possible? Lets say you practice metta in the morning, at work you try as much as possible to maintain a detach attitute,in the evening you will habitually sit down and extend your compassionate mind to all the 4 directions. can you combine all those practices together so that you can do them in the morning,at work,and afterwork? is this even possible? i dont think so, because all the qualities within us arent equally developed.You could be very compassionate and loving, but distracted a lot. your concentration sucks. so all those qualities have to be developed separatedly.if im easily distracted,i need to master the ability to calm down,for this is my weakness. 2. The answer is : NO,we need to deal with our weakness if a stable path is to be 'obtained '(effortlessness) just another senseless post :-)

What if we are hugely egoistic? And we are interacting with another of the same nature? Wats gonna happen? :-)

Talk about not looking into the mirror Edited for wrong grammar... my english sucks☺

Why does he keep accumulating wealth ( as opposed to having just enough) if he is already fully enlightened?

what do u think?

You r talking from the social (interaction-with-others) point of view ? i dont see any connection to my post ....

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Hi, im interested to know more about your encounter with this (one of students).And did you meet the teacher(abbot)? Possible to share more?

Thanks ☺

Hi, because it is not an experience(since experience comes and goes),is the realization or 'shift in perspective' has 'permanency' ? In other words, someone who 'realize' the Self,say, 2 years ago, do they still has this realization now?

When someone says they are enlightened,since they cannot prove it to me in a personal ,subjective way(im not yet experience what you experience), i would probably just asking this side question : From the moment you are 'enlightened'(surely u dont feel enlightened at birth,there has to be a shifting at some point in your life ,this point in the past when u start to get enlightened ,or at least feels it more and more gradually)does the enlightenment stays?

Do you believe the process of unknotting and letting go of tensions has an end,a point when there is no more 'unknotting', no more 'tension' ?Have you ever ask yourself what it feels like when theres no more 'tension' ,theres no more unknotting to be done,,and is there such a state? A permanent " no more unknotting ",for 'im done' state? The reason im asking this is simply because i myself am trying to understand what a permanent (state of )awakening is, is there even such thing? You can read this thread http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43699-realize-vs-experience-of-self/#entry743674

Hi, can you elaborate on " awakening is instantaneous,while enlightenment is achieved after many years?

Responding to ur 2nd paragraph, since " there are many phenomenon on the path " , perhaps a useful standard of judging is the permanency of the phenomenon.Does it stays?

When you feel awakened 'most of the time' that doesnt count as Awakening at all.For true ,authentic awakening must stay and never fade away.If it comes and then goes away,is it authentic at all?

When somebody says he/she is "Awakened" , i would probably ask : Does ur awakening still stays with you until today? Does it fades? I post a this topic " Realize vs Experience of Self " http://www.thedaobums.com/topic/43699-realize-vs-experience-of-self/#entry743674 here.