Gerry

By so doing its over comes the irresistible, impenetrable, without intention and without desire.

It does not contend and does not resist, but it will smooth the rough stone.

Reincarnation is the noble ideal and nothing but the projection of men.

Interesting. I've said it before, but looking at the TTC and other ancient writting, I wonder if it might not be a kind of "practice" to rewrite them in this style of modern idiom. primordial vibration? String theory? The Christian thing was just a quirky memory from a long passed past.

FWIW, as to the pachyderm this is want I meant. You have a practice and tradition that you follow. I may not be an admirer of them, but I do not deny they are of value to you. This is how you touch the Elephant. Is it how I must touch the Elephant? The last line I fully adhere to. I see this as neither religious nor Eastern. What I do find interesting is how closely this parallels the western Christian sense of knowing god. "The eternal God is a dwelling place, And underneath are the everlasting arms [...]" Deuteronomy 33:27 This was just a random search. I think that this is why someone like Merton found a kindred spirit with the east. Some 50 years ago I recall a book claiming that either John 1:1 was translated, or should be translated for the Eastern version of a Bible: John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Translation: "In the beginning was the Tao, and the tao was with Tao, and the tao was Tao." I am not a Christian and I am no believer in any divine. As I have said "We are born. We live. We die." Within that all that we were, all that we are, and we will be all that remains.

Jeff, I have toyed with the idea of "translating" a version of some of the chatpter, but my better sense keeps me away from it. At times I write journal entries with my feelings about a translation, but then the is an infrequent activity. One of the issues I feel others will have with my pov is the absolute Materialistic reference frame for the Human condition.

Flowing hands posted this, and I liked that the images were not tied to the valley talk. The root of Heaven and Earth lies in its spirit. Search and feel this spirit, for it ever present, the gateway to all mysteries. The spirit is the primordial Mother of the Ten Thousand Things (all things that exist) It is ever present and eternal. When I read the various translation I read about the creative force as both local and ephemeral as well as the "eternal" Tao's as the creative energy of all and of nothing.

Jeff: As you can see in the words, it is specifically saying that if you find/realize the "gate", you will ultimately realize the Dao Actually, it does. Are the valley spirits the idiomatic way you express yourself, or it that how you accommodate yourself to the 2500 old cultural expressions. As I tried to sat, each of us will fi.nd this in our own way. The valley spirit never dies; It is the woman, primal mother. Her gateway is the root of heaven and Earth. It is like a veil barely seen. Use it; it will never fail. If you wanted to rewrite this in a "modern idiom" what would you say?

I would say projected. FWIW, the rest of what you said is not in conflict with what I see. I have suggested that we, living 2500 years in the future, cannot directly apprehend the intent, the understanding, the world view, of what the ancient intended for each other to understand. Each of us, in our own idiomatic and idiosyncratic way need to touch the elephant with our own hands. But also, what is consciousness, ourselves, is transient and unreachable by others. It comes from "no where" and in dust it returns.

I think all of this constitutes "hijacking" a thread, and perhaps should be dropped.

I might substitute "aware". I it possible that consciousness has emerged more that once in earth's history.

Consciousness is what you are doing right now. it is a by product of the genetic complexification of the physical world. It is when the knower and the know understands that it is. Sort of like "I think therefore I am". [An after thought, I would think if fair to suggest that it is an evolved thing. As hominids emerged and evolved, so did Consciousness.] As intended, yes, well as far as we know. There are "billion and billions" of other places. Consciousness is not the end, perhaps, but it is for us. [Another after thought, It might be argument that human consciousness is not the only evolved consciousness on earth.] Consciousness is born, it lives, and it ceases to be. It is all that we are, were, and will be. That there is, may, be other Consciousness is a projection of our individual Consciousness. Consciousness is not given by any universal Mind or the Tao. Well it is emergent within Tao, but consciousness is not the Tao we know. Consciousness is not an aspect of Tao in what might be called an active sense. When I said farting apes, it was a kind of joke. More of "I really don't want to go there with you, please find someone else to play with." It was not meant as in insult, just away to not offend with what I was thinking

Genetic complexification. As to your "Daoism" it is ever the expression of the individual's response to the knower and the known. Is Daoism a thing? Is it a ritual experience? Is your consciousness not its source?

When the disparity of wealth and income reach the current level, is seems reasonable to seek redress. The "vote with your feet! " or the "if you don't like what I like" get the fuck out argument is too narrow. Change can be implemented by the vote.

My recent exchanges leave me distressed that any suggestion of understanding of the human condition as Eusocial and a collective endeavor opens one to the demagogic response that you are a Socialist. Thus we all should accept this, and by extension accept that one is in reality a Communist in all the implied negative connotations. Beyond the need of such a person's, a one trick pony's, need to malign an other's pov, is their insistence that they, and only they, can transcribe your true intents, resolve your true motivations, into their one clear truth. You are a Communist. You are a participant in the "long march" that seeks to restrain and kill the individual sovereignty that they espouse as the one true nature of being Human. After a while, after the never ending insistency that you get back into their queue it is time to break communications with them and in your best colloquialism inform them of their condition. One need not see nor hear the "farting ape" in the tree.