Gerry

I have a technical question about the translations of the end of chapter #1. It is the translation of “darkness”, “profound”, Mysteries”, “Darker than any Mystery”, “ pairing is deepest” Can someone relate these translations to the original chinese characters and their literal meanings? I am trying to relate "darkness" to the other language choices. Mitchell This source is called darkness. Darkness within darkness. The gateway to all understanding. Hendrick That which is even more profound that the profound— The gateway of all subtleties. English Darkness within darkness. The gate to all mystery. Cleary The mystery of mysteries is the gateway of marvels. Leddge Together we call them the Mystery. Where the Mystery is the deepest is the gate of all that is subtle and wonderful. Waley This “same mould” we can but call the Mystery, Or rather the “Darker than any Mystery”, The Doorway whence issued all Secret Essences. Lin Yutang They may both be called the Cosmic Mystery: Reaching from the Mystery into the Deeper Mystery Is the Gate to the Secret of All Life. Derek Lin These two emerge together but differ in name The unity is said to be the mystery Mystery of mysteries, the door to all wonders Blakney These two come paired but distinct By their names. Of all things profound, Say that their pairing is deepest, The gate to the root of the world.

By so doing its over comes the irresistible, impenetrable, without intention and without desire.

It does not contend and does not resist, but it will smooth the rough stone.

Reincarnation is the noble ideal and nothing but the projection of men.

Interesting. I've said it before, but looking at the TTC and other ancient writting, I wonder if it might not be a kind of "practice" to rewrite them in this style of modern idiom. primordial vibration? String theory? The Christian thing was just a quirky memory from a long passed past.

FWIW, as to the pachyderm this is want I meant. You have a practice and tradition that you follow. I may not be an admirer of them, but I do not deny they are of value to you. This is how you touch the Elephant. Is it how I must touch the Elephant? The last line I fully adhere to. I see this as neither religious nor Eastern. What I do find interesting is how closely this parallels the western Christian sense of knowing god. "The eternal God is a dwelling place, And underneath are the everlasting arms [...]" Deuteronomy 33:27 This was just a random search. I think that this is why someone like Merton found a kindred spirit with the east. Some 50 years ago I recall a book claiming that either John 1:1 was translated, or should be translated for the Eastern version of a Bible: John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Translation: "In the beginning was the Tao, and the tao was with Tao, and the tao was Tao." I am not a Christian and I am no believer in any divine. As I have said "We are born. We live. We die." Within that all that we were, all that we are, and we will be all that remains.

Jeff, I have toyed with the idea of "translating" a version of some of the chatpter, but my better sense keeps me away from it. At times I write journal entries with my feelings about a translation, but then the is an infrequent activity. One of the issues I feel others will have with my pov is the absolute Materialistic reference frame for the Human condition.

Flowing hands posted this, and I liked that the images were not tied to the valley talk. The root of Heaven and Earth lies in its spirit. Search and feel this spirit, for it ever present, the gateway to all mysteries. The spirit is the primordial Mother of the Ten Thousand Things (all things that exist) It is ever present and eternal. When I read the various translation I read about the creative force as both local and ephemeral as well as the "eternal" Tao's as the creative energy of all and of nothing.

Jeff: As you can see in the words, it is specifically saying that if you find/realize the "gate", you will ultimately realize the Dao Actually, it does. Are the valley spirits the idiomatic way you express yourself, or it that how you accommodate yourself to the 2500 old cultural expressions. As I tried to sat, each of us will fi.nd this in our own way. The valley spirit never dies; It is the woman, primal mother. Her gateway is the root of heaven and Earth. It is like a veil barely seen. Use it; it will never fail. If you wanted to rewrite this in a "modern idiom" what would you say?

I would say projected. FWIW, the rest of what you said is not in conflict with what I see. I have suggested that we, living 2500 years in the future, cannot directly apprehend the intent, the understanding, the world view, of what the ancient intended for each other to understand. Each of us, in our own idiomatic and idiosyncratic way need to touch the elephant with our own hands. But also, what is consciousness, ourselves, is transient and unreachable by others. It comes from "no where" and in dust it returns.

I think all of this constitutes "hijacking" a thread, and perhaps should be dropped.

I might substitute "aware". I it possible that consciousness has emerged more that once in earth's history.

Consciousness is what you are doing right now. it is a by product of the genetic complexification of the physical world. It is when the knower and the know understands that it is. Sort of like "I think therefore I am". [An after thought, I would think if fair to suggest that it is an evolved thing. As hominids emerged and evolved, so did Consciousness.] As intended, yes, well as far as we know. There are "billion and billions" of other places. Consciousness is not the end, perhaps, but it is for us. [Another after thought, It might be argument that human consciousness is not the only evolved consciousness on earth.] Consciousness is born, it lives, and it ceases to be. It is all that we are, were, and will be. That there is, may, be other Consciousness is a projection of our individual Consciousness. Consciousness is not given by any universal Mind or the Tao. Well it is emergent within Tao, but consciousness is not the Tao we know. Consciousness is not an aspect of Tao in what might be called an active sense. When I said farting apes, it was a kind of joke. More of "I really don't want to go there with you, please find someone else to play with." It was not meant as in insult, just away to not offend with what I was thinking

Genetic complexification. As to your "Daoism" it is ever the expression of the individual's response to the knower and the known. Is Daoism a thing? Is it a ritual experience? Is your consciousness not its source?

When the disparity of wealth and income reach the current level, is seems reasonable to seek redress. The "vote with your feet! " or the "if you don't like what I like" get the fuck out argument is too narrow. Change can be implemented by the vote.

My recent exchanges leave me distressed that any suggestion of understanding of the human condition as Eusocial and a collective endeavor opens one to the demagogic response that you are a Socialist. Thus we all should accept this, and by extension accept that one is in reality a Communist in all the implied negative connotations. Beyond the need of such a person's, a one trick pony's, need to malign an other's pov, is their insistence that they, and only they, can transcribe your true intents, resolve your true motivations, into their one clear truth. You are a Communist. You are a participant in the "long march" that seeks to restrain and kill the individual sovereignty that they espouse as the one true nature of being Human. After a while, after the never ending insistency that you get back into their queue it is time to break communications with them and in your best colloquialism inform them of their condition. One need not see nor hear the "farting ape" in the tree.

My god Brian! You are so full of ____ I can catch a wiff through the screen.

Of the three only Bernie is a socialist. Also because one person may have a descriptive pov called socialism, an others views, definitions, are not always the same. To believe that is to have a blind spot. My interests on the Shaker movement, or Brooks farm, and the Commune movement of the late 60's do not have to be painted as just more of the same. I see problems with the wealth distribution in America. I think those that revel in it are creating a climate where you can endorse schemes to redistribute this wealth for the general good. I favor taxes as the means to redress this wrong. For one to call that Marxism, Communism, or theft from an individual sovereign is to be wrongheaded. Oh my son, we are in need of counsel. I can perceive your twitching as you type this. As such, is this what you think of me? Because I like to drink, am I also an alcoholic? Here I was convinced that you are the the one with phobic neurosis.

You have dangled this twice, and since I do not care enough, would you like to be less obscure?

Not my thing. To think this might have an appeal for me is to not understand me at all. I am not a Marxists. I am an odd variant that you might find some resonance in things I say and believe. Last time I read Marx, and that was 90% his pre-economic thoughts, I was 20 and that was 48 years ago. [The reason that my level of detail got the Lenin connection wrong. The two of them were always tossed into the same salad.] Around the same dates in my history, and perhaps for 5+ years earlier, I was interested in the origins of communism [the community thing not the political derivative of Marx and Lenin] in America. I found the Shakers interesting, and some local community in the NE area from about the same time as the Shakers. I am relatively sure it was Brook Farm. [ Edit: I am sure that this is it. They were in West Roxbury and I remmeber seeing one of those historical landmark bronze markers.] So, Yes these notions of share experience, community Communism, is fundamental to my perception of society. On the other hand at the same time I was incredibly drawn to Phenomenology, mysticism, linguistics, and Eastern philosophy/theology. I have told you before that this juxtaposition of philosophies had me telling my Marx/Lenin/Mao friends that they had their heads up their ass. This is related to some of the camp fire and better species stuff. What concerns me is you seemed obsessed with this stuf.

Consciousness is a human thing. Mind is a human thing. Before humans there was neither. I once knew a language teacher at Harvard how who would ponder from time to time about the syntactical structure of a language based on farting. He was doing acid at the time, so.....? Edit: how = who

The Long March (October 1934 – October 1935) What hundred year long march? Where those commies hiding under your bed. bead? Bad commies!

If you get it passed it is never illegal. Who knows how SCOTUS might rule.

I swear you eat "Conspiracy Flakes" for breakfast. If I can make one of those "ratfucks" vote my way, then they are my "loveable" ratfucks. Ya know, 'By any means" to my ends. First, I do not see these things as you do. But sure, this is sortofkindof what the ACA was intended to be. Well at least from you end of the stick. Had those ratfuck traitor Dems sided with my man OB-Wan, and not with those coldblooded anti-human ratfuck bastards.... Well we just don't know. Is he on your ratfuck list?

I will reread this. I do not think you can read it that way. She has a full time long time job. That job provides the household's HC. Her husband over the last 4 years [plus or minus] has acquired employment via a temp agency. He is thus able to get 40 hours per week plus some overtime. These jobs pay from $15 to $25 per hours but mostly about $20/hr. [bTW: he is thus ineligible for unemployment insurance and receives zero benifits. ] When things are good, their total income is in the 70th percentile for American households. When he is between jobs their household struggles with meeting obligations. If HC was an added concern, medical bills for emergency services etc. would move them to the brink of bankruptcy if only one of them was unemployed. Their's is a household which I would but in the working poor category, though when it is all working well they are low-middle class fro around here. Now I have "picked" up the slack for them at times. They have 3 kids, and I have paid for dance classes. There public pre-school was not free, and I have paid a month or two when needed. I tend to buy clothing etc. for the kids as needed. I "loaned" them my Nisan Quest, and paid the insurance, for 4 years until it died. I go by the name Pa. I am also called PaDayCare and have been that for the last 10 years. At one point at least 5 days a week I cared for 5 infants from 6am to 5pm. At one point I had 5 under 2 years old, and 3 of them were 3-5 months old. If either of my daughters had to pay for daycare, it would have been an extreme economic hardship. [My other daughter is a school teacher and husband is a school administrator.] One thing they are not is irresponsible dead beats. Brian's Your linked article makes reasonable points, however I felt an overall tone was medical costs were only part of the issues for households already edging toward bankruptcy. In tone, I felt they were just a hair from saying, "Well these were the type of household already on the dead beat end of the scale. So what difference if some of their debt was medical.?" I will go back and reread my original post to see how you got your questions. Edit: on reread i saw that opps...