morning dew

Yeah, Taoist I Ching is good, but I found it a bit tough going. I'm going to come back to it once I've got to grips with The Complete I Ching. I suspect Taoist I Ching is going to be a more helpful version from all the reviews I've read and the bits I could grasp of it.

That's very interesting. My tai chi teacher was actually talking about sung last night. I find it fascinating the way people like you and Steve are able to pick up such details from watching these videos. I'm awful at noticing things like this lol. Thanks for taking the time to answer these questions. It was all very helpful. So there are actual things acupuncture can't fix that Tai Chi and qigong can? I had no idea. That's fascinating. I always thought acupuncture was the more superior technique that Tai Chi (in part, anyway) and (medical) qigong tried to emulate.

I remember when I first started posting on vBulletin forums (about 10 years ago) in a serious way, I got into this argument with an atheist, who was basically just trolling everybody, for days on end. After about a week I realised how stupid it was that I was getting angry over words on a screen from a random person and wasting so much energy over it, and I told him I'd leave him to it and his thread and moved on. Then a little while later I was playing a MUD and somebody tricked me and killed me, and I went onto a group channel and started cursing him out and created loads of drama. Some people were sympathetic, some people thought it was hilarious but eventually I ended up getting trolled and made fun of by some people and I gave up lol Ever since then I've promised myself never to react to words on a screen. Now and then I may see something that irritates me (or even that I just happen to disagree with), but I just acknowledge it's my own issue and take responsibility for how I'm feeling. I never react back. I'll either blank the person (if I think they're just being a PITA) or just agree to disagree (if I think the person is okay and we just happen to not see eye to eye). ZZ End of chapter 2

As a bumbling newbie, I've actually found Alfred Huang's The complete I Ching the most useful so far out of all the various versions I've looked at.

Thanks for the input. It's interesting to watch his version. It seems to be mainly at the same slow, steady speed. The other guy seems to alternate speed. It's also quite interesting to watch your teacher's analysis at the end. You actually raised some points I had some questions about. According to Jwing-ming this is what Damo's Yi Jin Jing does: Some of the questions I had were: Can you replicate this just by Tai Chi, and, if so, how? If you were a millionaire and could have a daily acupuncturist, would you even need to bother with Yi Jin Jing (assuming you did some kind of physical exercise such as running, swimming, weights)? What's the difference between Yi Jin Jing and Tai Chi? Is it all the extra martial arts techniques or is it something else?

I seem to remember Jwing-Ming talking about facing north for certain qigong practices (or even sleeping with the head facing north?), I think, because of the body's polarity and the Earth's magnetic field. Not sure if that's what you were asking about?

Great thread. I don't have anything to contribute, unfortunately, but look forward to reading any more stories people may have.

Yeah, I have fond memories of listening to him when I was younger.

In my limited experience, I benefited much more from real-life teachers, even if they weren't 'masters'. As long as they aren't irresponsible and harming you, it's much better to get something live rather than just from books or DVDs, IMO. Another option is Skype and WebCam, if you have a decent speed from your Internet provider. That way, you can simulate a class and get some kind of feedback on your techniques if you really can't find anybody local.

Thanks for taking the time to explain all this; it's been a very useful conversation for me. Seeing as I'm doing BKF's Wu Tai Chi and his Cloud Hands, it would probably make sense to do his outer dissolving as a meditation. I think it's good advice of yours to keep it in a single coherent system. I don't think I'm anywhere near being physically and energetically in shape to be doing internal work right now. My time will probably be better spent getting a few years under my belt of BKF's stuff so I can get in shape for alchemy later on.

Yeah, some good advice here, IMO. I'm still trying to sort out my morning routine. When you say half an hour of meditation, are you talking about single point just focused on the breath, or are you talking about focus on LDT?

Thanks So if I'm doing Eight Pieces of Brocades, Dragon and Tiger medical qigong (first movement) and Cloud Hands (as well as Wu short form) each morning, this should be helping to clear out my channels? What would be missing with me retaining and internal alchemy? Would I need to specifically do something such as LDT meditation or MCO as well?

So just doing a random Tai Chi form such as Wu short form isn't going to help me achieve internal alchemy by itself? If I'm retaining currently, am I doing anything just with Wu short form?

I was actually wondering about this the other day. Does Tai Chi help you with internal alchemy at all?

Yeah, that's it exactly. I meant both at the same time.

Maybe there's a way to reconcile our two views? From a (giant) bird's eye perspective nothing is useless, everything can be useful to somebody. However, from a particular individual's perspective not everything is going to be useless as there is no objective standard of 'useless' and 'useful' for any one person – it's all relative to the individual and varies from individual to individual. Either that, or I'm still floundering around in ignorance.

Ah, yes, I think I got it now. He's saying nothing is objectively useless or useful; it's all relative. I like the other points as well, especially the last one. Good old ZZ. He always seems to pack so much in his little stories.

Is useless here talking about space to allow room for change? Or is it talking about a 'Zen' kind of thing where you empty the mind so you can actually grasp the present without overlaying past experience or expectations onto it? Or something else I haven't grasped?

Thanks. I managed to get a whole class by myself last Thursday, so I asked him to show me the first movement (out of seven). It's quite complicated, more complicated than the version of the eight pieces of brocades that I do – there seems to be active work on channels, along with visualisations. On the first movement, the hand's fingers are pointing to the outer side of the foot and then wrap around the thigh to the inner side. From there, as the palm moves up and into the side over the kwa, you imagine a white line, shooting from the fingers, going up the the channel of the inside thigh. Then, you switch focus to the Laugong point of the palm, and go up and down the right-hand channel of the torso (with the right hand) with the Laugong point going through it (and the left-hand channel with the left-hand). You have to have the hand away from the body at least a fist or two so that you're skimming the surface of the aetheric field (or aura or whatever you call it). Below, 20–40 seconds is this first movement. Before that is something called preparation, I think (it looks like pulsing LDT, perhaps – I think that comes along later as well): I had a few more thoughts, but I'll leave it there for the moment to see if anybody wants to throw in any opinions on the differences. At the moment, I've cut back to 3 reps of the Eight Pieces of Brocades as a little warmup, and then do other stuff later on in the morning workout.

Woah, I thought I was doing well with an hour to an hour and a half a day. Looks like I've got a way to go.

Yeah. I'd hazard a guess that as the ocean/wuji is pre-material-universe and outside of space and time, it would have to be a unity as spatial dimensions (or at least the ones we're familiar with) wouldn't exist. Well, I guess you could change the model to: ocean = wuji, waves = 10,000 things (with peaks = yang and troughs = yin) and Dao = the wind blowing over the surface, causing waves and interpenetrating with them. I'd say that would fit with your model and panentheism, off the top of my head. I have no idea which one is the right model, though, or if it's something else completely different.

Short answer: I have no idea. I guess it depends on what words such as "beget" and "produce" mean, for example: https://www.yellowbridge.com/onlinelit/daodejing42.php If the model is something along the lines of ocean = wuji, waves = 10,000 things (with peaks = yang and troughs = yin) and Dao = just how the ocean wobbles/vibrates, then it seems to me it probably would be more along the lines of pantheism.