turtlehermit
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Thanks for the enlightening response, and no offense was meant, my apologies. I'm glad to see some people agree with the poetic interpretations. The only point I'm offering is that sometimes all techniques can be transcended. I assumed the snow was an analogy for the inner light of meditation, and doesn't necessarily have to look like snowflakes. Perhaps the eye movements may help in raising and lowering energy, but as some have said on this forum, thoughts of using techniques like this during meditation means you are not yet empty minded. Overall, I think this book has a lot of great things in it, but for me at least, I tend to find the older and simpler neidan methods more effective, which are more focused on the Lower Dantian. Where after sufficient energy is accumulated it circulates naturally, without extraneous eye movements.
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Okay that's fine repetition of what the author of the book would say, mixed with some mantak chia. But can you explain how you know when to use the eyes and what is the exact inner feeling at that crucial moment? And what is the effect after using the eyes. And you see flying snowflakes? Are they white and fluffy? Where they hexagons or octagons? I'm sorry but the older daoist classics don't mention any of these complicated techniques, not to mention zen, and I'm sure those masters did just fine. Maybe the eyes and wooden balls can help somewhat, but to say you absolutely need them is questionable. especially the word "absolute". I'm sure it is meant to be a literal manual, but perhaps it written poetically.
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That makes sense to me. reading it more like an instructional poem, rather than a literal, manual. For instance putting a clothes pin on the nose and sitting on a wooden ball doesn't sound like much fun, and rather unnecessary. I understand the process he's describing and most of the alchemical terms, but I just don't see how things like rolling the eyes 36 times and seeing falling flowers and lightning is the only way to go, and will happen for everybody. It would make more sense if this was to be understood as a poetic description.
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What are some of the main techniques in classic Taoist meditation? It would be very helpful to hear some simple explanations on some of the fundamental techniques. There are many different techniques that have been developed such as the Inner Smile and Micro Cosmic Orbit, but as I understand these are just thought forms given to processes that occur during meditation and the movement of energy through the body, and are just different ways to achieve the same goal. Going back to the origins of Taoism, and man's essential nature, there are no words or techniques, just feelings. How did these masters meditate and achieve immortality? It is doubtful that they were practicing a wide variety of techniques and visualizations, each with their own catch phrases and number of repetitions. It is more likely that the early Taoists practiced a simple form of meditation, with little technique, just basic guidelines from experience masters, such as collecting the mind and breath in the lower dantian. What is the classic form of Taoist meditation? It would be great to hear some opinions on the basic steps. Thanks.
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In reading some of the longer taoist texts such as this one, it seems some of them seem to repeat things over and over in varying poetic fashions. It seems like going in circles for instance some describe the journey of the alchemical process starting in stillness at the lower dantian, and then movement of the chi up the back, and then down the front of the spine, returning again to the lower dantian. This goes on over and over again with added effects each time, until the goal is reached. Visions of falling flowers, snowflakes, lightning, and sounds of thunder are said to be experienced. This all seems like a poetic account, rather than a scientific one. My question is are these texts, in their poetic, repetitive nature, meant to be read as an experience, and training, rather than a factual scientific method?
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Here is a question. When in meditation you feel energy surging up, should you guide it up to the head, or should you remain centered in the dantian and allow the energy to take its natural course?
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This is a nice explanation of Lao Tzu's meditation.
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Would anyone else agree that the lower dantian is one of the greatest secrets of Taoist meditation? Almost all Taoist meditation texts seem to emphasize this as the main center. The older texts specifically, while the later texts add in the third eye, and become more complicated. Zen, mentions the Hara as one of the few points in meditation, besides "just sitting". Ofcourse it is important to have all the centers open. It is true focusing on the third eye, for example, will move chi up the body, but this assumes using the mind. A Taoist master once said, focusing on the third eye, will only give you a head ache. And some texts say when the energy rises not to give thought to it. Would it be more wise perhaps to stay focused on the breath in the dantian, and let the energy circulate naturally? As opposed to moving the attention to other centers, like the third eye?
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Nice to hear. It seems like followers of Lao Tzu's form of meditation would agree with a simple meditation like focusing the breath at the dantian for instance, as a way to induce this trance. Hence "empty the mind fill the belly", "let the breath become subtle as a babe". Bruce Frantzis calls this the "water" tradition of Taoism. This would explain why there is so many conflicting ideas, if you view both Fire and Water methods as equally valid, but different paths for different people, it seems like a balance is reached.
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Thanks for posting. This article has some great stuff I like how it explains the method of putting "fire under water" to create qi. “empty the mind and fill the belly” which are reminiscent of later Daoist inner alchemy breathing practices meant to tonify the energy center in the lower abdomen. Chapter 40’s passage “the movement of Dao is reversal” Once the Yin Qi is built up then the real lower dantian also opens the third eye." This also corroborates my understanding of the method of focusing on the dantian naturally opens up the third eye. It suggests to me the fundamental nature of the alchemical process lies in this basic technique. It would seem that if one can master this process, then some of the more extraneous and complicated methods could be unnecessary. Although, all techniques serve their purpose, it would be interesting to hear some more opinions on this, and see if we can extract some more essential knowledge on meditation. Thanks to all
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Would anyone say that the turtle is a symbol for the lower dantian? And that turtle breathing is generally embryonic breathing from the lower abdomen? Not referring to full body techniques here. Just the true breath that occurs in deep meditation. https://www.qigonginstitute.org/abstract/315/the-explanation-of-embryo-breathing
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Well I don't know much, and that's a vast topic, but generally speaking I understand it to be a symbol of longevity and peace. It's interesting to note how the turtle's breathing is emulated in Taoist techniques, and how it utilizes the lower dantian. I'd love to learn more about it. Although ofcourse learning is discouraged. That seems to be the brick wall. I've gone to many teachers and unfortunately in today's world most have an unreasonable fee for teaching. I believe true knowledge should be free and the world is at a point where we need all we can get for a more peaceful planet. It is a compassionate thing to share any grain of wisdom with a sincere student. A master who is not interested in personal gain, but teaches for the benefit of all, is worthy of listening to. If you know of any please let me know.
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Would anyone like to speak on the turtle or the Big Dipper in regards to meditation?
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Where are you quoting from? Okay how do you apply the "origins of taoism" practically? And how do you apply their connection with the Big Dipper? I understand the Big Dipper, revolving around the North Star is symbolic for the qi revolving around the center. Is this what you mean? I'm hearing a lot of big claims, but still haven't heard any practical methods of meditation, in which this thread is all about.
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Sorry for the misunderstanding, I meant no disrespect. Talking context, by classic I meant something more like "standard" or "golden", not old. And by simple, I didn't necessarily mean easy. When a foolish man hears of the Tao he laughs out loud. Lao Tzu. If it wasn't simple he wouldn't laugh. The original question wasn't necessarily about the origins but of the basic, time tested methods that seem to work for people. All opinions are appreciated. I was just stating mine, and I notice you like to do the same. If you could explain how the big dipper and north star help in your meditation that would be appreciated. Sorry, I just tend to see a red flag whenever I hear something that sounds dogmatic or absolutist. Would love to hear some more answers like this. I love when people talk about not talking
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Thanks. I understand Taoism evolved from arcane shamanic practices, but that doesn't necessarily make them superior. Saying a practice is improper taoism because it doesn't include the Big Dipper seems rather dogmatic. Lao Tsu and many other Taoist texts don't mention it at all. I understand the symbolic and celestial importance of the Big Dipper, North Star etc, and how they influence the body, but really how pertinent is this to basic meditation? Maybe certain practices became arbitrary over time? I know many sages achieved immortality without complex astrological preconceptions. I think the way is meant to be simple, and complicated techniques seem to be contrary to the Tao. I find thinking about things external to be a hindrance to deep meditation. Visualizations and rituals all have their place, but the whole point is to reach a state of thoughtlessness. I guess I'm not so interested in the scientific, religious Taoism. Rather the tradition of cultivation that has developed over time. Any other opinions on basic Taoist meditation?
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Anyone else find this book to be extremely repetitive and tedious? I've read many Taoists texts and this has been by far the most complicated and complex. To me the spirit of Taoism is of a much more simple nature. It's hard to believe all of these techniques are necessary, if not obstructive to creating the elixir. Things like rolling the eyes, pinching the body, etc, all seem a little too much. I understand certain schools need to formulate complicated techniques in order to get the students to work harder, because if they just said "do nothing" not many would succeed. I believe the creation of the elixir doesn't necessarily require all these extraneous techniques. The book seems to repeat the same basic steps over and over again, getting more complicated as it goes. It does have some good information, but it could have been consolidated into half the size. I almost get the feeling as if this book was meant to scare people away from Taoism, misleading them with complicated techniques. It reminds me of how the first half of renaissance magical texts were filled with spells involving dead animal parts, to scare the reader off from the real astrological knowledge in the latter half. Either way, I find this book to be extremely monotonous. It's like they took the basic teachings from the classic texts and covered them with 50 pages of nonsense. It's hard to believe any Taoist teacher would advocate practicing these techniques word for word. Or maybe this was the point?
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Hi everyone, I would greatly appreciate any help with this question on Taoist meditation. In my studies I've noticed that the older texts suggest joining the mind and breath at the lower dantian to build the elixir, but in reading some later texts such as The Secret Of The Golden Flower, and Taoist Yoga, they focus more on the third eye and add more complicated techniques such as rolling the eyes. Some of this seems contradictory and unnecessary, although I understand the elixir moves upwards in the body after being vitalized in the dantian. Also, in Zen for instance, they do not stress any complicated techniques. I've heard focusing on the third eye will just give you a headache and focusing on the lower dantian is the classic method. I would be very grateful if you could give me your opinion on this topic. I understand there is a lot of information out there and it takes time to sift through to the essence. Thanks so much!
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Hi, just wondering if there is a way to get a topic back into view. I recently posted a question and didn't get many responses, and think the topic is way down the list now. What would be the best way to get more responses? Sorry if this is a stupid question. The topic was my first post in the newcomer corner, but I would just really appreciate some more opinions. Thanks! Here is a link to to the topic.
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Thanks for the detailed responses! Very helpful, indeed!
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The Secret Of The Golden Flower says let the breath flow naturally, without effort. One easy way to allow the natural breath to occur is to relax the body fully, especially the lower abdomen. Just completely letting go of all tension, the natural breath will occur like when you're sleeping. If you continue to allow it to flow, uninterruptedly, it will be rhythmic, and eventually become slower, and softer, progressively. Lao Tsu say's let your breath become soft and subtle, like a newborn babe.
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Nice! Always knew Spongebob was a Taoist. The original Dragonball show is another one. I think it has a lot to do with impartiality, and nondualism. Like a child who doesn't see separateness, but has a light hearted outlook on life, living in the present moment. "The Great Way is not difficult for those who have no preferences." - xinxin ming, a nice zen poem. The Tao Te Ching has it all.
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Yes, these responses are very helpful and appreciated. I think my question will take time to be fully answered, and i'm grateful for all the help! Would anyone else care to elaborate on this second question?
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Thanks! That helps alot!