Lost in Translation

If you really want to "test" the I Ching then try the following: 1) Using 3 coins generate a dozen "responses'. Write down the response values but do not look them up. 2) Over the course of several days "ask" the I Ching questions. Look up the response from the next available response that you had previously generated. 3) Write down your impression of the relevancy of the response. A truly prescient oracle would have no problem answering your questions before you think to ask them. A truly prescient oracle with a strong personality might see through your game and decide to chide you for your behavior. I haven't done this but it would probably be an interesting experiment.

I asked the I Ching how future events might affect a person close to me. The response is below. Without any further context how would you translate this?

Yes. Does that place a caveat on the results?

@zafrogzen Nice article. Perhaps you can open a thread on that topic.

@OldDog I would not worry about that. I'm a math geek. Any excuse to calculate something is good enough for me!

People compartmentalize. For example: criminals rob, cheat and steal then go home and read bedtime stories to their children. It's not that they love their children therefore they are good people. The one is not related to the other. Such is the way in spiritual matters. One can be devout yet still be angry. One can pray yet still victimize. One can beg to receive mercy yet still give none. Don't try to change people. Work on yourself instead.

Yes - it would be interesting to see whether your results approach those of Wikipedia and others when you do that. I added customizable variance to my program and ran it from +- 1 through +- 10 (e.g. stack size / 2 +- 1, etc.). The results are unexpected. Variance: 1 Permutations: 8 Yang (old) percent: 25.000000 Yang (young) percent: 25.000000 Yin (old) percent: 0.000000 Yin (young) percent: 50.000000 Variance: 2 Permutations: 64 Yang (old) percent: 18.750000 Yang (young) percent: 31.250000 Yin (old) percent: 6.250000 Yin (young) percent: 43.750000 Variance: 3 Permutations: 216 Yang (old) percent: 16.666667 Yang (young) percent: 33.333333 Yin (old) percent: 8.333333 Yin (young) percent: 41.666667 Variance: 4 Permutations: 512 Yang (old) percent: 18.750000 Yang (young) percent: 31.250000 Yin (old) percent: 6.250000 Yin (young) percent: 43.750000 Variance: 5 Permutations: 1000 Yang (old) percent: 20.000000 Yang (young) percent: 30.000000 Yin (old) percent: 5.000000 Yin (young) percent: 45.000000 Variance: 6 Permutations: 1728 Yang (old) percent: 18.750000 Yang (young) percent: 31.250000 Yin (old) percent: 6.250000 Yin (young) percent: 43.750000 Variance: 7 Permutations: 2744 Yang (old) percent: 17.857143 Yang (young) percent: 32.142857 Yin (old) percent: 7.142857 Yin (young) percent: 42.857143 Variance: 8 Permutations: 4096 Yang (old) percent: 18.750000 Yang (young) percent: 31.250000 Yin (old) percent: 6.250000 Yin (young) percent: 43.750000 Variance: 9 Permutations: 5832 Yang (old) percent: 19.444444 Yang (young) percent: 30.555556 Yin (old) percent: 5.555556 Yin (young) percent: 44.444444 Variance: 10 Permutations: 8000 Yang (old) percent: 18.750000 Yang (young) percent: 31.250000 Yin (old) percent: 6.250000 Yin (young) percent: 43.750000 Here is the average percentage if the split variance is between 1-5 stalks: Yang (old) percent: 19.834 Yang (young) percent: 30.166 Yin (old) percent: 5.166 Yin (young) percent: 44.834 And here is the average percentage if the split is between 1-10 stalks: Yang (old) percent: 19.272 Yang (young) percent: 30.728 Yin (old) percent: 5.728 Yin (young) percent: 44.272 I think these last numbers are the most accurate for real world use.

I hope so! Berlin was separated for almost 30 years and ultimately united. It's about time for Korea to do the same. Hopefully Kim will see the benefit of opening up the north. Hopefully his generals will let him if he tries! I don't think we'll see luxury hotels replace the gunnery walls any time soon but maybe we'll see some electric lights at night and a few passports issued. One can only hope...

Since we've been discussing probability a lot around here I figured it would be worthwhile to put the question of probability to the I Ching itself. Here is the response. QUESTION What role does Probability (chance) play in divination? Yarrow stalk results Position Raw Converted Number Line 6 588 322 7 --- 5 548 332 8 - - 4 588 322 7 --- 3 948 232 7 --- 2 584 323 8 - - 1 548 332 8 - - HEXAGRAM 56. ䷷ Traveler/Wanderer: Difficulty while traveling. Remain steadfast and upright. NUCLEAR HEXAGRAM 28. ䷛ Preponderance of the Great: A great weight has accumulated. The time has come to move. COMPONENT HEXAGRAMS Component hexagrams are built from the converted yarrow stalk values. For example the 332 in position 1 and the 323 in position 2 are converted into a hexagram by replacing 3 with a yang line and 2 with a yin line. 332,323 becomes yang-yang-yin,yang-yin-yang, or 38 ䷥, Opposition/Diversity. HEAVEN 54. ䷵ Marrying Maiden: A time of caution. Misfortune moving forward. MAN 40. ䷧ Deliverance/Relief: Rest or move forward, according to the demands of the time. EARTH 38. ䷥ Opposition/Diversity: Small things bring fortune. INTERPRETATION This question was framed within the context of the I Ching so it is really asking what the role of probability plays within divination via the Oracle. To answer this question I first look at the roles of the individual hexagrams corresponding to the digrams of heaven, man and earth. This shows an interesting response. Heaven represents the marrying maiden. The marrying maiden is the second wife, prized by her husband but required to live under the scrutiny of the husband's first wife. As such her position is delicate. Her success depends upon her ability to navigate the subtle politics of the household. Man represents deliverance or relief. His task is to either remain still or to move as the demands dictate. A false move brings disaster. Earth represents opposition or diversity. It is something that resists us, challenges us. Against the earth we cannot take large actions but we can and should take small actions. We can see these forces working together. Earth opposing man and heaven seeking to help man, but restrained by the demands of protocol. Man seeks to know correct action, either movement or rest, so that he may avoid suffering. Which brings me to the 56 ䷷ Traveler/Wanderer, the generated hexagram, and 28 ䷛ Preponderance of the Great, its nuclear element. Starting with the nuclear hexagram (28 ䷛ Preponderance of the Great) we discover that a great weight (or pressure, or power) has accumulated and the time has come for movement. That weight, once it begins to move will carry a powerful influence so it behooves us to choose very wisely how to direct it. The generated hexagram (56 ䷷ Traveler/Wanderer) shows the traveler on his journey. Traveling is difficult and is not to be taken lightly. While traveling one must remain vigilant, steadfast and upright. Since one is a stranger, if one is too harsh then one risks harm, but if one is too weak then one also risks harm. The middle ground is required. So what does this have to do with the role of Probability? Probability (via the I Ching) is the means by which heaven, in the role of the marrying maiden, assists man to skillfully navigate the hardships presented by the earth and to overcome the trials of his journey. There. Question answered.

Correct. I have considered altering my program to iterate only "likely" outcomes, such as splitting the stalks 1/2 +- 5 or some such. That will give more likely percentages.

I'm not saying that a person will do that. I'm saying that statistically it is possible for a person to do that.

No. Keep in mind that we start with 49 stalks. The initial value of L1 is between 1 and 47. The initial value of R1 is between 2 and 48. rem(R1 - 1) 2..48 is rem(1)..rem(47), and rem(47) yields 3. So there are twelve opportunities to achieve 1-3 and only eleven opportunities to achieve 4. This slightly changes the odds.

@wandelaar Your logic is correct.

I understand. @Harmen gave a great explanation of this phenomenon earlier in the thread: I can't express it better than him.

Of course! Other hexagrams will also be relevant, but the other hexagrams are not what you received! Imagine a case where a man is asking for relationship advice from a friend. There are many things his friend could say that would have value, but he does not say all possible things. He chooses his words and gives specific advice. This is analogous to the I Ching. It gives specific advice in the form of specific hexagrams and changing lines. It's up to the reader to accept the advice or not.

I'm trying to be cool to TBD by clicking the banner ads and viewing the sponsors' websites. Many of these links go nowhere, or they go somewhere that has expired. You may want to review your banners.

@wandelaar Yes, that is the method. The video failed to mention that you need to convert these numbers once more to calculate your line. The #s 4 and 5 translate to 3. The #s 8 and 9 translate to 2. After translation you add the numbers together and will have either 6, 7, 8 or 9. These are old yin, young yang, young yin and old yang respectively.

It was bound to happen eventually...

The Wikipedia is not wrong, it's just incomplete. There are indeed only 16 permutations that the yarrow stalk method can achieve. 1/16 is old yin, 7/16 is young yin, 3/16 is old yang, and 5/16 is young yang. However, it is false to assume an equal probability of achieving each permutation. In other words there is not a 1/16 chance of getting each outcome and it is this additional factor that is omitted from Wikipedia. What I did was write a program to simulate sorting stalks. I started with three nested loops. In the outer most loop I sorted the stalks in stacks starting at 47-2 through 1-48. In the inner loops I continued this method of sorting while accommodating the removed stalks from the outer loops. I then ran this to completion, totaled all the possible solutions and performed basic math to determine the percentages. If you are interested in the actual program used (admittedly not my best work, but it was always intended to be a throw away effort) I have uploaded it to my PPD here:

I wrote a program that literally runs though all 71,527 permutations possible via the yarrow stalk method. This includes improbable permutations such as a stack comprised of one stalk. Here are the results: Permutations: 71,527 Yang (old) percent: 22.145484 Yang (young) percent: 27.871992 Yin (old) percent: 4.382960 Yin (young) percent: 45.599564 That's it. I am done geeking out on this topic!

I wasn't satisfied with what I could find online so I ran through the yarrow stalk method and calculated the percentage chance for each line (old/young yang/yin). There are basically 64 permutations, yielding the following percentages: Old Yang: 18.75% Young Yang: 31.25% Old Yin 4.69% Young Yin: 45.31% In each case there is a 50/50 chance of Yang vs Yin, but the actual likelihood of change varies highly between Yang and Yin! This is even more dramatic than the 3/16 vs 1/16 listed on Wikipedia. My numbers could be wrong, but my test case looks (to me) solid. Searching around I found a website (1) that lists similar numbers based upon statistical analysis. Hopefully someone finds this amusing. (1) http://www.biopscinst.com/QChing/prob.html

Bold emphasis is mine. Let's see if I can unpack this correctly. Are you saying that we (you, I, everyone) become one with our environment, in effect creating an 'us-environment' that possesses a mutual resonance linking us to the environment and vice-versa, and in the process this 'us-environment' allows us access to extra sensory awareness in the form of synchronicity, or intuition - whatever you choose to call it?

I look at the dominant changing line first. Then I visit the text, image, any other commentary, and all changing lines as a whole. Lastly I review the specific trigrams followed by the nuclear hex. Afterwards I move on to the second hex and do the same, minus specific changing lines. Sometimes it may take hours or days to fully absorb a reading.

If this is really an AI creation then it is brilliant! If a person created this and passed it off as an AI creation then it is clever. If a person just created this, well, WTF Roger?

#1) I suppose you are resonating at a similar 'frequency' and thus are collecting these individuals to you. That happens to us all sometimes. Be extra mindful of your thoughts, emotions, and body language. #2) See #1 above. If you can't stop them from being drawn to you then practice discretion and simply walk away if possible.