OldDog

I looked into Falun Dafa many years ago. Bought and read the book, attended a group practice which was very vague and shallow ... and quickly decided that it was a little too cultish for my tastes. Subsequently, I had heard that the Chinese government was very suspicious of the movement ... rather, I should say more suspicious than normal. The group seemed to want to elevate the founder to more than just a figurehead. He grew large crowds that seemed a little too political from what I had read. Anyway, I bailed out and never looked. That was many ... 30ish ... years ago. Maybe they got better. I dunno.

It's not personal, just business. Marketing. Subliminal messaging. It's funny. Play the video without the sound and see what the message is. A Chinese white satin shirt with frog buttons, a kindly fatherly looking older gentleman, hand gestures ... counting fingers suggesting options, choices ... open palms up suggesting offering, giving, sharing ... palms drawing into the chest ... etc,etc. Doesn't matter what he is shilling for. You know you want to have it. Same technic used to sell the latest pharmaceutical. Young healthy looking happy nodding people engaged with their fatherly/motherly health provider appropriately clad in a white lab coat with stethoscope. Ask your doctor if our drug maybe right for you. Ooops! Sorry! I was overcome by a wave of cynicism.

Sunday morning jazz ...

Clearly, you have some strong ideas on what democracy should be. I think the general line of discussion here has centered around how Daoists ... being a part of the general population ... might react in political discussion and actions. I understood that in this context, democracy ... with a small "d" ... was referring to any system where the people play a significant deciding role in how governing happens. That seems sufficient for the purposes of the discussion. In what way do you see it not sufficient and how would that bear on Daoist response?

... As does the sage.

Along with the right to vote comes the right not to vote. But it is not just a question of voting or not. It is a question of participation in the democratic process. Voting or not, in and of itself, does not make you a good participant. To follow the sports analogy, just because you went out does not make you a good player. ... and anyone can be a voter. What would it take to make a good politician ... or a good voter? I am often intrigued by the notion of the ancient Chinese process of civil examination. I know, this is a Daoism thread not Confucian. Still, would a democratic country be better served if there was an educational requirement for office woven into the democratic process. I know someone will jump up and say that anyone can be elected is a fundamental part of democracy. But there are more than just a few examples of politicians who have done disservice to the institution by being in a position of public trust without any real training ... and performed poorly ... or adversely ... to the common good. As for voters, perhaps a revised secondary education curriculum that sought to develop skills in critical thinking, social psychology and philospophy would help to evolve a more enlighten base of participation in democracy. Just some random thoughts on what it takes to make a healthy democracy.

Ya know, I don't think I have listened to bluegrass since Marble left us. We used to go on these long tears of trading bluegrass and traditional (old school) country tunes. Along that line ...

Sunday morning jazz ...

I understand, empathize and sympathize. I cannot become involved in political discussions because i get too easily riled up. So, I mostly avoid them. I don't want to get wrapped around the axle with staking out position, taking a defiant stand and participating in the name-calling, demonization of others and general ugliness. For me, it all boils down to how best to promote an environment where people can live out their basic purposes of life and be satisfied and happy. I think the best way is to embrace all the Daoist qualities that you point out. Thanks, RL

I took up study of the Dao as a young man confronted with the confusion of purpose and the times. Even as I did not understand it, there was a ring of truth that I could not ignore. I have been at it ever since. Can't say I understand it any better. But on the OP subject ... I've come to believe that the life is its own purpose. Not achievement, accomplishment. We can only know what our experience has given us. To bring those experience into expression is the purpose of life. The Laozi passage of straw dogs comes to mind here. I've come to believe in the cyclic nature of things as described in Daoist texts. From the perspective of western science, the notion of conservation of energy had a ring of truth. Not saying that there is life ... as we know it ... after death but that what remains after the form returns to earth reverts to the general energy of heaven, the universe. I can take sufficient comfort in that. RF said, Spirituality is the rapid acceleration of your completion. My experience suggests that may actually be true. But, what is the limit of acceleration? Some years back, I came to the realization that if I was going to be able to survive the events that were unfolding, I had better come to terms with death. Once again, Daoism brought me to a level of understanding that allowed me to make it through the last ten years or so. So, I will continue to study and practice until my turn comes. What comes to mind here is a quote from Zhuangzi ...' A son must go whithersoever his parents bid him, East, West, North or South. Yin and yang are no other than a man's parents. If yin and yang bid me die quickly, and I demur, then the fault is mine, not theirs. The Great (universe) gives me this form, this toil in manhood, this repose in old age, this rest in death. Surely that which is such a kind arbiter of my life is the best arbiter of my death. (Lin Yutang)

We only call ourselves human to distinguish ourselves from other living things. And I think in doing so we set oursleves above other life forms. Maybe that is a holdover concept from Abrahamic religions, idk. I learned differently from my relationship with my old dog ... yes, my namesake ... whom I knew to have strong emotions ... fear, anger, love and humor ... and ability to communicate across species. So, those things are not peculiar to humans. Many a night we sat and watched the moon rise together ... in commune with nature. Nuff said.

Self-interest, self-gratification is a pretty unfulfilling way to exist and as pointed out no basis for society. Anyone who lived through the 60s would understand that. Doing what you want sounds pretty enticing ... and no responsibility to anything or anybody. That is not Daoism. This is where a study of Confucian ideas becomes useful. Confucius was concerned about how best to order society. He was not anti-Daoist any more that Daoists are anti-Confucian. What Daoists decry is that there should be a need for justice, humanity and filial piety ... of the artificial kind. These things should come naturally when people are in accord with the Way. Regardless of the circumstances, a real Daoist's conduct would be guided by compassion, frugality and humility. Sound familiar?

My political Ex used to remind me that ... Life is politics. (WWMS - What would Marblehead say. Have to admit i thought of him as i wrote this. )

I think the point of view Wandelaar poses is worth keeping in mind. It is only in a society that is relatively free and open that we can even entertain these kind of discussions. What makes the OP question difficult is that politics is a societal thing ... and much of Daoism is interpreted as being opposed to societal conventions. Not saying that is strictly true, just saying. I think an anti-Confucian (anti-societal) camp of popular Daoism misses the point ... and finds itself being anarchical ... which is another extreme to be avoided. We have to recognize the practical necessity for having some basis for living together. So what position does a Daoist take? I would hope an independent one ... that is detached from the common fray. Certainly, the heated emotional environment created by the various points of political view is contrary to the Daoist way ... recognizing that by reducing the emotional content one can better see into the heart of things. Recognition that all things are in a state constant flux would seem Daoist. What may be auspicious at one point in time under one set of conditions may be inauspicious at another. Viewing each societal issue independently and measuring it against the needs of the times is important. Often, there is truth to be found in both sides of an argument. Taking a stand often puts one in the position of denying the truth of the opposition ... and in doing so, the stand itself assumes primacy and both truths become lost. A Daoist I would think would resist the either/or tempatation and be capable to recognizing both truths. Finally, I would think that, if anyone, a Daoist would recognize that when an ideal ... even a political one ... reaches its fullest expression, it will tend to reverse direction. So, in the greater scheme all things will level out.

@windwalker Thanks for Born on the Bayou. CCR always conjures up some fond memories from the late 60s.😊

Absolutely agree. I have about a half dozen Guqin CDs that I play regularly. I actually have this Shakuhachi CD. Shakuhachi is a very unique sound ... very Zen-like. Great examples. Indigenous solo instrument performances can be very interesting. Thanks!

I once had my TCM practitioner advise that I should not consume pork after the age of 50. Unfortunately, his English is not very good. So, when I asked him why all I got was, "Not good!" Any idea why he would prohibit pork? As a general rule, I know my digestive system is slow. That it takes me a long time to digest meat. So, I tend to eat less ... except for an occasional trip to the bbq joint. I find that I ... my digestive system ... is happier when I consume only 2-3 ounces of meat a day ... some days none. About once a week, I crave salad. I try to listen to what my body says.

Sunday morning jazz ... Bill Evans and Jim Hall produced some really nice pieces. I am continually surprised.

As I mention above, I do not tend to consult the Yi as an Oracle often. I think it can be all too easy to get wrapped up in the mechanics of determining a hexagram and investing to much in what the reading might be saying. Rather, I use it as a tool to stimulate thought and reflection about the possibilities of any given situation. There are no absolutes. To put faith in the Yi as an Oracle, at some point you have to accept that there is a mystical connection between you, the question being asked and the process of consultation, such that the result relates directly. I think this is why some place such emphasis on the using the stalks and setting up consultation in a way as to enhance the mood and assure the connection. At the other end of the spectrum, if a mystical connection exists, then it exists ... and the Oracle will work through whatever method is used to provide an appropriate result. So, I say use as an Oracle is quite personal. I think it is wrong to think in terms of randomness. In the west, we tend to think of randomness as the test for validation of process. In consulting the Oracle you don't just want any random result that could apply equally to anyone or any situation randomly. You want a result that pertains to your question. The result may be ... likely be ... abstract. In which case it is up to you to find meaning in the abstraction. This is what I mean by stimulation of thought and reflection.

Wandalaar make a good point here. The value of the Yijing is in working with it and allowing it to open up your understanding and show possibilities. There are a number of ways to take the Yijing. I should say that my use is as a source text of wisdom. I do not often consult the Yi as an Oracle. For one, I am not very good at interpretation. I just don't approach looking for answers to specific questions. But, I do have interest in the mechanics of transformation and in understanding the archetypical images present. All of this is something I should spend more time with. The one approach I feel strongly is not a good approach is to look for the Yi to give you answers to questions all wrapped up with a tidy little bow. If someone or some thing gives you the answers, then you are not really invested in the answer and probably will not learn and grow from your experiences.

That opens ... or should I say reopens ... a whole line of discussion. In the end I think it is safe to say it is a matter of personal choice. There are a number of methods besides using the stalks. One can examine the mathematics of outcomes ... and that has been done in excruciating detail on this forum. The one thing we could all agree on is that the different methods produce different distributions ... possibilities ... of outcomes. Adherehents to the stalks method argue tradition and a better sense of connection to the Yi. But most agree that the important part lies in the interpretation of the outcome. So for practical purposes. No, it is not important.

Yes, traditional Irish music can be very relaxing , as well as rousing . I have a Celtic mix that I often play at night when I want to settle down and read. It starts with this ... This sort of music is dying out, sadly.