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Everything posted by OldDog
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Woke up with this song in my head this morning ... Must be time for a pub crawl. ; )
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What Daoist religious practice might the philosphical daoist/cultivator benefit from?
OldDog replied to thelerner's topic in Daoist Discussion
I tend to agree with this statement. To me the Yijing is like the scientific arm of Daoism. But, it is not an easy text to master. It requires a lot of study, reflection and discussion ... since it is through discussion that we test and confirm our understanding. In my own experience, I had always had some misgivings about the common simple interpretation of Yang and Yin. That is, as being a simple dichotomy understood through common real world exmples like light/dark, heat/cold, masculine/feminine. Those example, while valid, seemed to me to be only qualitative. They seemed to lack explanation of the motivation for change. It was not until I went to the Yijing ... specifically investigation of Qian, Kun, Li and Kan both as trigrams and as hexagrams ... that I began to see Yang and Yin as being not only equally motivational of change but each dynamic in itself. My understanding of this is still developing. My point though is, here is an example of the Yijing being capable of providing valuable insight which, at least for me, which would not have been otherwise available. So, there is real value in the Yijing. As for the Yi being a suitable model, I think the evidence is there in the examples of martial arts and medicine that systems can be based on the Yi. In my mind it is not a question of whether or not one ... Yijing or modern science based model ... is superior but one of suitability of one method over the other for a particular application. These considerations will be the subject of perennial discussions ongoing, as they should be. -
Thanks, all. I'll try working with that for a while. Much appreciated.
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What's the best way to find a thread quickly if you don't recall which forum the thread was in? Are there bookmarks under user login or should one just use the browser bookmarks? Or, are there other alternatives? Suppose I should know this by now ... But I don't.
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@Kar3n Guess I did not phrase it well. Looking for a way to quickly navigate to a discussion topic without being alerted to the tread because someone posted new content. For example, suppose I ran across an interesting quote I would like to share. How do I jump to Favorite Quote quickly, like a bookmark.
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The key to understanding the natural order of things is dissolving the barriers between subject and object; knower and known, seer and seen. - Eva Wong, Lieh-tzu: A Taoist Guide to Practical Living
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Hi Newbie Seeking Knowledge (NSK) and welcome to the forum. I have been here a little over a year ... so, also a newbie by any standard ... but I can tell you that you have found a place that has wide and varied points of view and experience. Your questions are a great place to start getting feedback from the forum. In my experience ... It's never too late to get started ... age should not be a factor. TDB is a very eclectic group. There are those that follow particular schools but that's what makes it great. You can hear from a lot of POVs . Religious limitations can be a bit unpredictable. Certainly the Bums are very understanding. What is more likely is that various religions may have issue with study outside of doctrine. I ran into that with some of my more conservative family. I was told that studying Daoism leads you away from Christ. While I don't see that as an issue others did. So, I just keep my studies to myself ... It's my journey. Your learning only gets in the way of other pursuits depending on how you chose to structure you time. Move at your own pace. Let your learning inform your other interests. There are a number of approaches to meditation ... Some very formal and others very casual ... Some not even related to eastern approaches. A good place to start is by just quietly sitting and letting the days cares melt away while you are looking for a fit. Good luck. Hope to be seeing you around.
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Yes, it is ... and must be, of necessity. Everyone must rely on their own experience ... and no two will match. Lonely ... But not sad.
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Sunday morning jazz ...
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Thanks for the great article. I was just about to launch myself on a review of selected Chinese terms, including Xin. Very timely.
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I think a place for you to get started might be to take a look at the Neiye. There is a thread here on TDB under Daoist Textual Studies. I think there are a lot of esoteric approaches to this subject but the Neiye seems to be foundational. From there you would have laid ground work for other studies. Good luck.
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True enough ... and how can you learn your limits without practice in different ways.
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Other internal forms can be practiced in this manner. Often times in taiji the starting and stopping is unintentional. It came with learning the form in sections. Logical breakpoints were identified for teaching purposes. My teachers usually started and ended with a complete form, regardless of the ability of the student to keep up. In between, sections of the form were worked on for correction. But by emphasising the full form, the continuity of flow was conveyed. I actually had one instructor tell me that it was important in forms competition to have a slight pause between movements so the judges could assess posture. I did not buy that. I figured if they were judges they would be able to observe correct posture and alignment even while in transition. Still, the advice was helpful in that it helped me me develop a better sense of what competition was all about. I did not compete thereafter. btw ... I did not know there was much interest or practice in LHBF. Interesting to see.
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How so, KS?
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I lay no claim to any particular tradition ... except in my practice of taiji and then I follow the forms as taught by Chen Zhenglei. As for my Daoist views and energy practice, I proceed from the point of view that Daoism cannot be simply a philosophical mental exercise, that there has to be a physical practice in order to appropriately balance the physical, mental and spiritual aspects. Its like a three legged stool. Lose one leg and you're gonna have a problem. My practice tends to be sporadic. I will practice regularly for a while and take a break and then resume again. My practice is a simple ZZ, although I do use visualization in my practice. I did a little Zen Buddhist style study and practice for a few years but did not find it as meaningful and satisfying as Daoist approaches. What would I tell myself as a younger person looking into Daoist related arts? Keep going boy, you're on the right track.
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the secret of how yang qi is turned into Yuan Qi via music theory
OldDog replied to voidisyinyang's topic in Daoist Discussion
Lie is an awfully strong way to characterise what is going on. It implies understanding and intent ... neither of which I see as present in the common western perception of Yin and Yang. But, still, your point is valid in spite of the pejorative. I am not even sure that thinking of Yin and Yang as complementory is free of the projection of an incorrect understanding. I was guilty for a long time of the same western error in understanding of Yin and Yang. I used to reference them as Yin/Yang but came to understand that such a construct was actually tending to perpetuate the misunderstanding and so I try to avoid it. The moment of reaching a different understanding of Yin and Yang came as I was reading the I Ching, specifically the descriptions of Qian and Kun offered in Alfred Huang's translation and interpretation. That description allow me to think for the first time of Heaven and Earth as independent influences. That line of thinking was easily extended to Yin and Yang. Not sure I am presenting this well but it is the best I can do at this point. Actually, as I read the OP and the explication of music theory, cosmology and energy work, the I Ching also came to mind as an example of models and mappings. -
the secret of how yang qi is turned into Yuan Qi via music theory
OldDog replied to voidisyinyang's topic in Daoist Discussion
I am not sure what you mean by "Western symmetric logistics math". I have studied some math but I am not making the connection to a notion of symmetric logistics math. Still, I think I sense what you are getting at. We tend to think of Yin and Yang as being in a strict balance quantitatively and without any independent nature of their own ... the notion of degree of freedom comes to mind from my math days but that also is not quite it. So, I agree this is not the correct way to consider Yin and Yang. -
the secret of how yang qi is turned into Yuan Qi via music theory
OldDog replied to voidisyinyang's topic in Daoist Discussion
Interesting analysis but I wonder what it is that has actually been uncovered. Yin/Yang as a concept is fundamental and, as explained in numerous places, all else derives from them ... all conditions, relationships and interchanges that appear in the world should be explainable in such terms. What makes the analysis fascinating is the elucidation of how this is expressed as a theory of music, as well as cosmology and energetics. It a confirmation of the fundamental principles. I would expect that other such correlations could be found in other complex systems. -
Sunday morning jazz ...
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Yes, indeed. This chapter is very reminiscent of Marblehead. 'Nough said.
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How to regard death seems to be the pivotal point. Regarding death as an essential but unknown part of life places emphasis on the meaning and purpose of life. It is essentially saying ... life's too short. So the proposition that is set up in the example of the small country allows for the things that contribute to a happy satisfying life to be easily recognized. But we no longer live in small communities. It is much more difficult to find our way to a happy and satisfying life. Perhaps we have lost a proper regard for death.
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If resolving hatred and enmity that arise from disagreements is the point of this chapter, it would be well to consider that much of that is an emotional response. Learning to let go of such emotional content would seem to be the sagely way. This occurs frequently in society today. It has become common for people to take a position and defend it aggressively, often by demonizing the other position. In such a situation there is no opportunity to find middle ground. Spending all the effort and engery on discrediting others precludes one from understanding the positions of others and dismissing whatever truths there may be there. But I don't think this is all there is to this chapter. Flowing Hands has a broader yet more nuanced view. The answer lies in people's hearts. Know your part and keep your word, then all will be well. There would seem to be two parts here. The heart is often considered the seat of emotion. Daoist practice calls for calming the heart-mind in order to see clearly. What better way of dissolving enmity than exercising that skill. Seeing clearly allows one to understand his role in social contracts and not enter into them lightly. Once committed, fulfilling one's side of the arrangement becomes important. This is not always easy when disagreements arise. If one is able to fulfill his part in spite of misunderstanding, no blame.
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Necessary to what? That's your real question. You have to decide what is important to you and set a long range goal ... at least a temporary goal that will provide direction. My own belief is that body, mind and spirit are so closely related that for practical purposes they cannot be distinguished. From that perspective some sort of physical practice seems necessary to the balance of the whole being. From your post, I think you are intuitively aware of that ... which might just be the best form of awareness. There is a strong argument to be made regarding the purpose of life, the role of consciousness of that purpose and the nature of practice and being that supports that purpose. The balance is different for everyone. Your Zen practice is closely related to Daoist methods and, as you have discovered, can easily inform your perspective on Dao. Still, there are differences. I would suggest that you take up the study of the Daodejing ... choose a couple of good reputable translations ... and work through them slowly. Also, look into some earlier Daoist works. The Neiye can be very informative of daoist meditative practice without getting too involved technical terminology associated with alchemy. It can ... at least for me it did ... help fill in the gap between meditative and physical practice. And don't give up on the physical practice of qigong and taiji.
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@Wondo Very nice discussion of Daoist concepts. About as good as I have ever heard. Does your teachers tradition come down through Liu Yiming?