OldDog

White waxwood (a Ligustrum sp.) Is common throughout sothern china but also found in other parts of the world. It is relatively light but quite flexible and resists shattering or splintering. Hence, it is favored in wooden martial arts weapons ... bo, three section staff etc. Chen style taiji long pole practice calls for quite a long pole ... 3 meters in length. Often regarded as an impractical weapon by other martial artists, they miss the point of long pole practice. Many of the implements used in Chen style practice are used to train the body rather than weapons technic. Long pole practice builds a strong stance, hips and center while training the upper body and arms to deliver energy. As for dealing with loose dogs, I find the standard cane works just fine in a suburban setting.

I almost laughed out loud when I read this. Not in a derogatory manner but more in the sense of an "Ah, ha!" The image that came to mind was one of quantum states and the energy that must be applied to a particle to change states. I know, its not a perfect analogy but it's what popped into mind. So, I laughed. Slight digression, sorry.

Yes, one has to understand that teachers are not all perfect ... they are human and have their own faults. That does not mean there is no value in their teaching ... but also means their teaching is not de facto abosolute. Teaching/learning is a two sided relationship. As much depends on the ability of a student to learn ... accept, practice and understand ... as does the ability of the teacher, either in the sense of the teachers level of personal attainment or ability to impart the knowledge. Complex relationships indeed.

Something I think is important to remember about these things ... five elements, four seasons etc. ... is that they are simply models of what is observed in the universe. Ancient models, but models none the less. To the extent that we can use these models to understand the universe, they are useful. Seems to me that these models hold up as well or better than any other model if existence ... at least in terms of usefulness.

That's a fair question. The word "attainment" would seem to imply the expending of effort towards some result. But what effort, what result? The Dao is said to be that which underlies and pervades all things, yet is elusive and ineffable. We talk about it all day long, exploring its possibilities in an intellectual sense. But at some point we need to involve in some practice in pursuit of attainment. It is not purely an intellectual pursuit. In fact, intellectualization (in a psychological sense) is probably the exact opposite of attainment. The main goal of Daoist practice is direct experience of the Dao. This is done by abandoning intellectual pursuit of Dao. This is where meditative practice enters the picture. There is much written about the Daoist approach to meditative practice. The Neiye speaks most plainly about this but it is also mentioned, perhaps more cryptically, in Laozi and Chuangzi. Having some intellectual understanding of these texts is useful in orienting one toward the real objective of practice ... experience. Attainment is troublesome in another sense. It suggests completion ... that the end of the road has been reached. But I don't believe this is so. In the end, regardlesss of the success or not of the practice, one still has to return to the world of things. So, it is not a practice that seeks to transcend the world but rather, through direct experience of Dao, leads to a natural harmony with that which underlies and pervades all. One then returns to the world, in accord with Dao, to live out their physical existence.

I think this is significant ... and ... how it should be. Each of us has to find our own way ... and our own Way ... or at least our own sense of the Way. To say that we have a framework ... or even a teacher ... means to accept someone else's understanding of the Way. In doing so, you remain constrained by someone else's experience and not finding your own way. It seems that the basic goal of Daoist practice is direct experience of the Way. By definition ... experience ... it is an individualistic pursuit. The various teachers (lineages) and frameworks (methods) can start one off in the general direction but at some point the individual needs to break free of the guidance and carry on, on their own. Thus, the image of a framework expanding ... or of surpassing the its initial guidance is apt. Seems like a good teacher will lead the student to the limits of the framework ... and let them go.

Thank you for sharing your experience. It is not often that people will open up and share something so personal. Seems to be a testament to TDB that you are comfortable enough with this community to share your experience. Thanks again.

This last year (2018) I had decided to do some additional reading to help expand my understanding of Laozi and Zhuangzi. I was looking for a connection of those works to a physical practice. It seemed like moving forward, chronologically, from the DDJ, was leading me to increasingly more narrow esoteric subjects and away from foundational/core understandings and practices. The process of reviewing additional sources led me to three books that have greatly influenced my understanding of Laozi and Zhuangzi ... and are allowing me to develop a more personal and physical connection. These are: The Seal of the Unity of the Three by Fabrizio Pregadio, The Thread of Dao by Dan G Reid, Original Tao by Harold Roth. The Seal of the Unity of the Three helped show how different aspects of Daoist activity are all expressions of the same unity. At the same time it did much to breakdown the mystical language found in all sources. The Thread of Dao showed, through the development of the notion of proto-daoist sources, that there was an ongoing tradition that lead up to DDJ and that this tradition included a very real physical process to support Daoist philospohy. It showed the real value and practice of meditation. Original Tao affirms the ideas in The Thread of Dao and does much to strengthen the connection to Laozi and Zhuangzi in a detailed and academically rigorous way. These three works should be at the top of everyones list of study materials. They are foundational and can do much to enhance the later souces in Daoist tradition.

Aside from learning weapons technic, one of the benefits of training with an implement/weapon is that one learns how balance the energy and movment of the body with the implement. It develops a certain kind of "listening" skill that helps in understanding and developing internal energy. This is particularly true of exercises with the ruler, staff and ball. I tried pvc at one point, looking for a suitable staff, but found it too light and the hollowness did not allow the connectedness with the implement. Dowel rod was too stiff and inflexable. Bamboo worked OK. Found that the best experience was with waxwood staff but it is hard to come by.

My favorite is from Lin Yutang's translation of Ch 32. Tao is absolute and has no name. Though the uncarved wood is small, It cannot be employed (used as vessel) by anyone. If kings and barons can keep (this unspoiled nature), The whole world shall yield them lordship of their own accord. The Heaven and Earth join, And the sweet rain falls, Beyond the command of men, Yet evenly upon all. Then human civilisation arose and there were names. Since there were names, It were well one knew where to stop. He who knows where to stop May be exempt from danger. Tao in the world May be compared to rivers that run into the sea. The first section speaks of the simplicity and humility of being in accord with the Dao. Where the last section points out the risk that gaining too much knowledge can lead away from the Way. The middle section is ... just beautiful. All things are leveled in Dao. I have always liked the way Lin Yutang used capitalization, indentations and blank lines to enhance the flow and reading of the verses.

I've never really thought about enlightenment that way. Seems more aligned with Buddhist thought than Daoist ... i.e. transcendence of human condition. Every once in a while you do see reference to direct experience seemingly without preparation. But for the most part Daoist view seems more about unification than transcendence. So, the work in meditation, qigong and other esoteric practices, including an understanding of TCM, is all part of the general process of preparing the body, mind and spirit for the experience of knowing Dao. Enlightenment? I'm sure the experience would be enlightening but in the sense of being more unified with existence than transcendence. Just one view.

I would like that. While I do not have much interest in the Daoist Gods, I do have interest in cosmology and the relation of the natural world to human life, which I think is foundational to both religious and philosophical daoism. So, I woild welcome discussion that touched on such things as ... What is the significance of the middle position, 5, in the square? What can be said of the four corners? Does the cyclic change in seasons find expression in the square? Are there other mappings of the square that are instructive, familial, social, etc? Looking forward to discussion.

See ..

I don't think so. This is a area of developing interest for me and my understanding is just beginning. Roth makes it clear in his analysis that the term hsin (xin) as heart or mind has broader meaning than just a physical organ, as it is sometimes translated, and often taken in meaning by western readers used to a stricter distinction between matter and energy. Many translators use the term heart-mind as a way of reminding that the term does not necessarily refer to a physical location/organ. So, where it refers to storing ching (jing), it does not literally mean the heart organ. The entire Neiye needs to be understood in this context of broader meanings. Similarly, ching (jing) has broader meanings and implications. Indeed, one of the interesting notions (in Roth's interpretation) is a reciprocating relationship between vital energy and vital essence. This discussion may have direct bearing on your question of where jing originates. Most of the Neiye has to do with the qualitative aspects of inward cultivation and how to bring about direct apprehension of the Dao.

I have been reading Neiye by way of Roth and have not found anything so far ... don't expect to. I think such energy methods belong in the realm where Neidan and other esoteric alchemy practices are found. As suggested by others here, you will likely need to have direct instruction from an accomplished one. Neiye is almost a more overarching text that relates philosphical Daoism to meditative practices but stops short of energetics.

WWMS ... What would Marbles say ...

Not sure it is fair to say "nothingness". Isn't that jumping to a conclusion? Is nothingness the same as ungraspable ... inconclusive? Likewise, "absurd" is jumping to a conclusion by labeling it derisively as a triviality not worth furth consideration. The most that can be said is that one has exhausted all attempt to resolve. Thus it must be an issue that is parked until alternative methods or insight is found.

Yes it was. A little too mechanical and not enough lyrical for my taste.

Seems that there are two kinds of paradox. True paradox and pseudo- or quasi- paradox. The quasi-paradox being simply tricks of definitions, semantics or reasoning where the intent is to produce an argument that cannot be rationally resolved, thus bringing further inquiry to an end and apparently establishing a truth or untruth. In such quasi-paradoxes, if one takes the time to analyze the premise, suppositions and reasoning of the paradox, the deception may be discovered. In true paradox, no deception can be found and the only conclusion that can be attained is that the reasoning mind is imperfect and not reliable, thus pointing to the need for some other means of understanding. Seems that Daoism recognizes that true paradox exists and, realizing the inability of the rational mind to deal with it, poses that suspending the reasoning mind offers a directions for continued inquiry. Just musing about paradox.

Yes, I read that also. But why a paradox? Why not simply refute the opposition with straight forward factual logical argument? Why go to the trouble of creating a mind boggling argument? Is there something about a paradox that ...?

Back to the paradoxes. Let's beg a couple of questions before we actually begin picking at a particular Zeno paradox. Why do you suppose Zeno created these paradoxes to begin with? I have not studied western philosophy much. In my limited experience, it suffers from over-analysis ... seemingly endless cycles of reasoning and deduction, which incrementally seem to make sense but in the end leave you wondering where you are. Are western philosophical paradoxes analogous to koans? Do they serve a similar purpose? If so, what. Koans are usually simple dirct statements that appear as absurd or nonsensical ... they defy reason and so solution must be sought elsewhere. Paradoxes often required extensive set up to establish a path of constraining reasoning that appears to lead to an absurdity. Both koan and paradox seem to require breaking out of an either implicit or explicit pattern of thought to arrive at a satisfactory position.

I like the way you phrase this. It is a point that is hard to get across. We create phrases and metaphores so we can have a way of refering to something during discussion. But, as you say, we mistake the phrases and metaphores for the real thing. They easily become the object of our focus and our practice and, as such, we miss the mark. I think this is an effect of how the mind works. Hence, your references to knowledge. The way the mind operates is through distinguishing/differentiating what comes in through sensory input ... the mind creates knowledge, so to speak. The more input, the more knowledge accumulates and the more the discriminating mind has to work with. Now, this is not a bad thing. It is largely how we are able to navigate and cope with the physical world. But the are other things ... states of being ... that can be pursued and accessed. To do that, the discriminating mind has to be put aside ... temporarily shut down ... to access these things. To do that means to transition our being to a state of placidity ... tranquility ... calmness ... relaxedness ... emptiness ... reduce knowledge ... (More words!) ... enough so that these things we might pursue can be accessed. This is what I am getting from your comments and it is meshing with what I am currently studying and my own understanding. This is a worthwhile understanding.

Sadly, this is true. When one participates in practices simply for the sake of the practice, it becomes hollow, devoid of meaning. I have always seen organized religion as a social structure. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. Most people need a standard to live by, as a basis of social interaction. Where it becomes pernicious is when it becomes exclusive and then intolerant of other points of view. The only way for the individual to avoid this ... and remain within the social structure ... is through humility and tolerance. One of the things that attracted me to Daoism is the understanding of how the sage conducts his life and deals with social interaction. Many of the chapters of DDJ allude to this. It describes a path of personal conduct that an individual can subscribe to without becoming presciptive and ritualistic. Its about how you behave, not what you do. It imposes on no one, yet, has the ability to abide with all.

Tend to to agree. He (Kolar) has over-emphasized his hand movements and developed a motion below like a boat bouncing on the troughs and peaks of the waves. Seems like this over-emphasis is breaking the connectedness of his form. I wonder if he has trained in Xin Jia vs Lao Jia. Xin Jia (New Frame) has some of the kind of hand movement he is trying to express here. When one sees Xin Jia being performed well it is very exciting and exotic looking. Novice students are.attracted to it. But IMHO new Chen students should train in Lao Jia first before trying Xin Jia because it is all too easy to fall into erroneous movements if you have not accomplished the old form first. Another thing to remember is that the movement of the dantien is very difficult to see externally. New students often want to over accentuate this movement in an attempt to show they get it. It is better to focus on the connectedness of the entire movement and let the dantien develop on its own through the form, silk reeling and othet exercises. For example, look up Chen taiji ball training. The object of this training is the proper use of dantien. Chen Xiaowang and Zhu Tiancai are both highly skilled 19th generation masters, along with Chen Zhenglai and Wang Xian. I would trust their presentation/instruction over that of Kolar. Also, the video suggests 20th generation. Just because you recieved some training by 19th generation does not mean you can rightfully call yourself 20th generation. That would involve receiving acknowledgement by a lineage holder. I would be surprised if he had such acknowledgement based on what is apparent in his form. You might also take a look at Feng Zhi Qiang. He is a Chen trained master of the same generation but has taken his art in a different direction. Dantien movement is apparent in his demonstrations andhe is quite connected and powerful

It's not that they are banned ... it's that some things can not be grasp through rational analysis. Is it not possible to concieved that there are more ways of inquiry and study than rational analysis? If one insists that all things must yield to rational analysis, then one is closed off from anything that does not fit the rational paradigm. This point is at the core of Daoism. Daoism posits that the Dao is omnipresent/ubiquitous ... that it is inherent in each of us. But why do we find such a concept so hard to accept? Precisely because it is something that the rational mind has trouble dealing with. The rational mind seeks to analyze, break things down into parts, distinguish one thing from another. This is dualistic thinking. By its very definition ... using a dualistic figure of speech ... Dao is otherwise. Ineffable. Cannot be named. If such a thing does exist, how can it be approached? By shutting down the dualistic mind. This is not the same thing as banned. It is exactly the opposite. It is choosing not to use the tool of the rational mind to pursue the inquiry ... in just the same way as choosing not to use a hammer to fullfil the function of a screwdriver. We don't throw the hammer away because it can't turn a screw. Likewise we don't throw the rational mind away because it can not access some things. The beauty of the rational mind is that it can choose not to be employed. Dao is an extreme example. Qi is another / closer example of something that needs a different tool work it. Now, none of this is to say that rational mind can't make use of the awareness of qi ... or dao ... as we go about the business of living. Just don't expect to rationalize it ... analyze it ... measure it ... in the conventional way.