OldDog

That's a fair question. How to get to the answer? At some point, you have to stop reading about qi and begin doing something ... working with it ... discovering it. I first heard about qi through martial arts. Martial qi discussions are legendary. And everyone who does martial arts seeks the ability to use it. But it is not until you begin looking at other things that the concept of qi begins to expand ... meditation, qigong, TCM. For me it was TCM ... specifically acupuncture ... that took me from just reading and talking about it to experiencing it. And what a realization ... what an experience! My TCM practitioner helped greatly by not only performing the acupuncture but by helping me understand the feeling and sensations I was experiencing. Qi became something that could be related to physically, concretely. Since then, I have experienced qi in other ways. It has been great to explore it, work with it, integrate it. There is no explaining qi ... no denying it. Either you have experienced it or not. At some point you have to start doing to understand it.

While I can sympathize with liminal_luke, I don't really feel that such toxic environments are as pervasive as he suggests ... at least I hope they are.not. I know there are threads on this forum that tend that way ... I entered a couple to see what was going on and quickly ran away ... but for the most part TDB is well managed. And I hope it continues to be so. Contrary to those toxic threads, most of the on topic threads on Daoist, Buddhist, spiritual and philosophical matters are populated with folks that are willing to share their thoughts, ideas and feelings in open discussion. Sure, differing points of view arise ... some contradictions ... but these are most often settled in simple acceptance that these are someone else's view of the truth. In this environment it is all too easy to see when someone is going over the top in pressing a point of view. I think we know what ugly looks like and most folks on this site turn away from it and don't participate in it. I came to TDB because I am interested in learning. I want to hear different ideas and test them against my own understanding ... and find my own unfolding path. I have been pleased and grateful for this site. Happy holidays to all.

Sunday morning jazz ... something a little upbeat

For our old friend Marblehead ...

Good qustions. Silk reeling is a difficult subject to understand ... and to practice. This is one reason a really experienced teacher is needed. Let me try to put it into words. It has to do with all of those things we are told about ... alignment, connectedness and movement ... song, ding, peng, etc.The reason taiji is taught slow is so that you have time to observe and notice and learn ... mental and body... the nuances of these things. Taiji is not rigid and linear. It is relaxed and circular. Proper alignment facilitates rootedness with the earth. In form, solid/heavy/stable below, light/agile/flowing above ... all while remaining connected. Silk reeling facilitates the transfer of energy throughout the entire form. When one part moves, all parts move. Coiling, circular movement is very efficient way to move. While it is true that energy moves from the dantien, the physical form needs a reference point ... earth. Otherwise, when encountering another force ... emitting or recieving ... you would just bounce around like a man in outer space. Proper alignment allows the physical body to use the central core ... hips, dantien, back ... to manage movement. Solo silk reeling exercises are very beneficial in helping to learn about the rooting and connectednes. Start with single arm silk reeling ... both clockwise and counterclockwise ... alternate left and right. Pay attention to alignment and connectedness to the earth and how the central core transfers energy. Then at some point, add the other hand. Notice that when all is working correctly, it does not matter which arm is transferring the energy the coiling/uncoiling is the same grounded connected movement. Later, when you have developed these senses and see them manifest in your form, then partner practice can be introduced. If you enter partner practice unrooted/unconnected ... you will not have the proper frame of reference for partner practice. You will be bounced around like the space man ... out of control. Don't rush into partner practice. Partner practice has a lot to do with developing listening skill. That is, sensing your partners movements and center. That will ultimately lead to push hands and chin na. That's about as good as I can do explaining. Hope this is helpful.

I've been with the TDB site for a little over a year and have been quite pleased with this community. I would like to start my own personal thread to share my experiences and understanding and thoughts. I think I have been fairly well behaved ... at least I have not maliciously offended anyone or drawn any flags. Please let me know if there are any particular requirements for a personal thread. Thanks for your help.

Chen Xiaowang is known as one of the four Buddha's warrior attendants of the 19th generation along with Chen Zhenglei, Wang Xian and Zhu Tiancai. You can't get any closer to true Chen family taiji. Chen Xiaowang is very accomplished and powerful.

So, are these pathways material/substantial, analgous to a wire conducting electrical current ... Or, are the areas of less relative resistance to qi/energy flow? Sort of begging a question here.

I struggle with this issue also ... how to reconcile. It is easy to see morality ... human decency ... as a social idea. How can we all get along and be mutually supportive collectively without some sort of judgement system that guides our interaction. So, we conform ourselves to laws, whether they be religious or secular, for the sake of social stability. Harmony? But what about morality as an individual issue? What is it that guides our personal behavior aside from societal morality and laws? There are places in the daoist texts that suggest that an enlightened or realized one settles into a natural state harmony where behavior is governed by being at one with the unity of all existence. Such a state is said to be without without judgement. Where does social morality and individual attainment meet? It would seem that the texts ... daoist and otherwise ... are replete with examples of those who live outside of the guidelines imposed by social morality experiencing a change and conforming. Are they enlightened, attained? Are they repentant and saved? Are they worthy of forgiveness? In what sense should they be held accountable for past transgressions of social morality? Where does such a change in behaviour become just a means avoiding consequence? I have not been able to answer these questions completely for myself.

Sunday morning jazz ...

I do not see this as being a very good representstion of Chen style. No disrespect to this practitioner at all. Certainly, the practitioner has learned the sequence of the movements and is physically well developed and would probably be a fierce adversary in the ring. There is a very strong influence of other styles in his movements. I am reminded of when I first started taiji. Teacher did not speak much English and was very traditional in his teaching. One day after class a group of us went to lunch with teacher. As we sat there eating, conversation was going around the table but teacher could not participate much. I believe he understood more than he let on but just could not synthesize an Engkish response well or quickly. In a quiet moment, teacher spoke in quietly Chinese and one of the other students translated. Teacher was asking me if I had studied other martial arts. I acknowledged that I had; Aikido, Taekwondo and some kungfu. One hearing the translated response, teacher just nodded and said, "Hmm". I have thought about that moment often. I had presumed, by virtue of my past experience, that I was well prepared for learning Chen style. Over the next three years, teacher guided me in unlearning as many of the habits from previous trainings as possible, often making comments like, "not correct", "more relax, more song", "too strong, not good jin". I came to understand that physical strength and muscular tension in movement was an obstacle to learning taiji. Many are attracted to Chen style because it appears more martial than other styles. Certainly that was true in my case. But Chen taiji is a true taiji and should not be viewed through an understanding of "hard" style. Its strength and ability is of a different kind than the "hard" styles that appeal to so many. Compare to

Just so. Each individual become his own laboratory for investigation. Such work is complex just due to the number of variables involed. Key to investigation is the ability to manipulate variables and observe effect. For this sort of investigation ... thst is investigation of internal processes ... the only variables that you can manipulate are your own internal variables.

No doubt there is some contibution but I am reminded of the legend of Bodhidharma visiting the Shaolin monks and finding their physical condition poor and introducing exercises to strengthen the body. Regardless of factual historical accuracy or the ultimate development of a martisl art, the point being that physical exercise is reauired for health. An expanded notion of what constitutes meditation to include moving meditations seems advisable. Yes, this is part of what I am suggesting. By quieting the mind ones awareness of other processes is enhanced. I would hesitate to call those powers but rather abilities. That's just probably me. When I hear about powers Marvel comics and Justice League spring to mind. Outlandish and a bit of a distraction. These are esoteric daoist concepts that, while I cannot dispute their validity, I find to be a bit of distraction to making progress with my current existence. I want my practice to be a holistic body-mind-spirit thing using methods that I am capable of understanding and dealing with and then trusting that in the end I will benefit to some degree.

Would amend that. Emotions ... a reponse to stimuli. Cognitive evaluation of stimuli response is one form or knowledge. This again being a narrow definition. Ultimately, you can reach a point with this where it is difficult to say what is the stimuli and whatis the response. I believe to process is a whole body/being process, parts of which we are not typically conscious of or in contact with. The point being, one has to be open to the notion of other possible sources of perception and explore to find them and kearn to make use of them. Meditation helps with this process.

A couple of thoughts crossed my mind. First of all, I don't think meditation is as much a function of time meditating as it is of quality of the time spent. Hopefully, in practice of meditation, as one becomes adept with the mechanics, it takes less time to achieve a quality meditative state. At that point, one is then open to a new level of experience. Also, I think it a good idea to revisit what is meant by thinking. It seems that what one knows or is able to percieve is not limited to mental cognitive processes. In this regard, two things. One, emotions can be seen as a non-cognitive response to external stimulus. Cognitively, one can make use of emotions to provide an more informed understanding of what is happening. Two, what one is able to perceive is to a great extent dependent on one's general state of being. Call it, ability to focus on ... cognitively or otherwise ... or being receptive to what is going on. Meditation helps raise awareness for other modes of perception because it starts with quieting mental activity stimulated by the dominante sensory input of eyes and ears and tactile feeling. In my practice, it became helpful to think of heart-mind as a means of perception. The term, heart-mind, is not unknown in Daoist writings and I am not sure that I use the term in the manner it was intended but it does allow me to have a different sense of what it means to think and perceive than a more narrowly define cognitive sense.

I wonder what you mean by "unwell". To say one is unwell seems like a judgement on what you are experiencing. Could it be that you are not interpreting your experience in the right way? Let me explain. For as long as I can remember, I have noticed that during the this time of year I experience a change in my mood and general energy level. Could this be interpreted as unwell. Maybe. In stead, I have come to associate this with the cycle of the seasons and how the earths energy changes during the cycle. In this view, I am less disturbed by the change and more encourged to work with it than resist it. I don't view it as a loss of energy but rather an ebb in energy movement corresponding to nature. Key to this was noticing that I began to feel more energetic and more elevated in mood in the early part of the new year. So, rather than struggle against these feelings, I now accept them as natural. As long as I am not showing any signs of pathogenic illness then I am not too concerned. In this light, the practices you outline may not be helpful or may even be more detrimental. Just something to think about.

Jeff Beck was never so great as when accompanied by Tai Wilkenfeld on bass. Her virtuosity was a perfect match to his. Bass players don get enough credit. Good catch.

I would ask a related question in trying to answer ... What is the place of neidan in the broader scope of daoism? Many, including myself, have approached daoism from more of a philosophical angle ... but there has to be more that just the mental exercise of philosophical gymnastics. If one considers unification of the physical, mental and spiritual as an objective of personal development, then neidan can be seen as the physical practice side of daoist developmental practice. The physical practice aspect would seem to have implications for spiritual development as well. The spectrum of neidan practice is so broad, small wonder it seems rabbit-hole-ish when first looked into. It ranges from various simple non-goal-oriented but physical exercise systems to various qigongs to martial forms like taiji to very specific and formal systems that may or may not include ritual. I think if one approaches initially from the need to expand personal development, then it is just a matter of finding something that resonates with the individual and fills the physical development need. For many, me included, that is general qigong and taiji practice. One thing I think is true ... as you enter into any practice, you develop and change and your perspective will change and you will likely find that you need something else to further your development. So,, I would recommend start simply and see where your development takes you.

Yeah, I can see how that could be. Just in my Chen experience I have never heard any special explanation for the number of movements in a form.

Students are many; Masters are few. Masters are interested in passing on an art so that it does not die out. They look for students that have interest, some talent and are teachable. From those students they may accept a few to be indoor students. There are many good teachers out there that are not masters. If there were not, the arts would not propagate at all. In one sense, taiji is a lot like daoism. Daoist masters are few and those of interest are many. The community of interested followers must to some degree support itself. We learn from each other. In every martisl arts group I have ever had contact with, the older students help the younger under the watchful eye of the master. All you need at a basic level is the desire to learn and to come with an empty cup. You don't know what you don't know. If you can't or won't accept the guidance of others progress will be very slow. Clearly many have responded to the OP in good faith. That is all one can do.

Silk reeling exists in most all taiji forms. Chen places special emphasis on it but it is not something that is separate from the form. If you look at silk reeling exercises you will notice thst they are mostly pieces of postures and movements from the form that are performed separately so they can be worked on (isolated and repeated) cyclically. So, in that sense they are no different than the form itself. In all of my training settings silk reeling and form were worked on together. There was no overt attempt to have a student do a long period of silk reeling before being intoduced to the form. As far as wuji is concerned, I think there are a couple of implications. In my experience it could be a preparatory posture and/or a form of qigong. When preparing to do form there is what is called in Chen parlance Beginning Posture (TaijiQiShi). It is where you clear your mind, calm your breath and relax your body so that as you enter the form you are prepared to do the form correctly. This is a very wuji like state. From a qigong perspective, Zhan Zhaung is a very effective practice for learning the subtle alignments and energies of the body. Wuji like posture is one form of Zhan Zhuang. There are others. At one point in my training I sort of plateaued out. I was not progressing much. Teacher advised ZZ practice. It worked. My form took on new meaning and I was able to make progress once more. So much so, that it became a permanent part of my practice. But again, in my experience, there was never any requirement to work on wuji for a long period of time before being introduced to the form. It was done along with form training.

Yes,. It is quite dramatic. But one thing to remember, it is not necessary for the form to be performed in such a low deep posture. Often times new practitioners want to be able to perform the form that way because it is so dramatic. It takes a long time to get to the point where the posture is that low. Trying to use low posture as a training goal often results in the introduction of alignment issues into the form, which only need to be corrected later on. It often leads to back and knee issues. Look at the videos of the older masters. You don't often see them in such extreme postures. And yet, their forms are very powerful.

I have never heard them spoken of as having special meaning ... they are not magic numbers. They are just a way of distinguishing forms that places some emphasis on the forms complexity in a general way. The forms can be looked upon as sets of movements and postures. When the forms are taught they are often taught progressively starting with the initial posture and opening movements and incrementally adding movements and postures over the course of training until the entire set is covered. But that does not mean one has mastered the form, quite the contrary. It simply means that you now have the ability to recall the set for further practice. You never really are done with the form. Teacher used to say a good form always has room for a little improvement. As I look back on the training I did with the 74 and 56 form, I think the 56 form had less repetition in it. The 74 form has some postures that occur multiple times, for instance Pounding the Mortar and Single Whip occur multiple times in the form. Generally, the traditional forms are longer. Newer shorter forms were developed, I think, largely as introductory forms or forms suitable for shorter practice intervals or demonstration purposes.

I am no expert but I would suggest you have two conversations; one with your massage therapist and one with your Taiji instructor. Explain to them the issue and ask for advice. The massage therapist may be able to identify for you which muscles in the hip flexor group are at issue. The exercises should be able to target the ones that are most problematic but keep in mind that the whole hip flexor group needs to be addressed. Your taiji teacher can help by verifying that your posture is correct and advise which static postures can help you develop the support you need. Speaking from my experience with Chen style Taiji, postures tend to require a wider deeper stance. I think this is true for all Taiji forms to greater or lesser degrees. The posture must be trained slowly and progressively over time, working from narrower higher postures gradually to the lower deeper postures as the style requires. Proper alignment is essential which is why there needs to be hands on form correction from a good teacher. There are two typical problems that come up that need to be addressed. One is lower back issues which are mainly alignment issues having to do with too much forward leaning. The other has to do with the supporting arch that is created in the wider deeper postures. This supporting arch runs through the groin and involves the thighs, the hip flexor muscles and lower back. So, the right training approach has to do with stretching, strengthing and proper aligning all done progressively over a long period through the static postures and forms. Of course, all of this presumes that you have no physical injury to contend with, just untrained body. If you have an injury involved seek appropriate medical advice as well. You don't want to aggravate an underlaying injury. Hope this description helps.