OldDog

I have to say that I have really enjoyed the Dao Bums and way that it is managed. Many kudos to the management team. I like what I would call the collegial nature of the site. Largely it is inhabited by a very diverse bunch of folks that are good listeners that are willing to share their thoughts and insights with others in a non-threatening non-domineering manner. That's a rare thing. Now, I can't speak to the political side. I really have to avoid those kinds of forums ... not sure my nature would fare well there. But, yeah, don't see why there should not be a place for those discussions. I'm not sure a civil discussion on American politics is possible anymore but if any group can manage it, this group could. I have been hanging out here a little over a year now and have been quite happy with ... and better off for ... the experience. Thanks!

Gotta disagree ya there ... I am old enough to remember when fire ants were a rarity, back in the day when there were still horned toads ... the dominant forms of antdom back then being sugar ants, carpenter ants, black ants and red ants ... not the small vicious mound building fire ant but the large industrial sized half inch ( three-eighths, anyway) monsters that lived underground beneath a single hole but could still bite the hell outa you. The term 'piss ant' was already in common use then and referred to any kind of small annoying entity ... including, most especially, small mided petty people. Just a point of clarification there.

I trained in Chen style for a number of years and can offer some guidance. First of all ... and this is true of any taiji ... you need hands on instruction. The simple matter is that at the beginning there is alot of correcting of posture and movement. So look around for a Chen style teacher. Chen style has become more popular largely due to the efforts of the 19th generation Chen family masters Chen Zhenglei, Chen Xiaowang, Zhu Tiancai and Wang Xian. If you can findd someone that trained under them and/or closely follow their instruction, you would be getting core Chen style training. Some of the younger masters of the next generation are increasingly becoming more active in teaching and spreading Chen style. Chen Bing in a notable example. Expect to learn Laojia Yilu (Old form First routine) as the the basic training. This 74 movment form is foundational but it will not look as dramatic as some demonstrations (including above) since the emphasis is on slow correct posture and movement. You may find that some will teach a 38 movement form created by Chen Xiaowang, and it is a very good form, but Laojia Yilu is the more traditional line of practice. The 56 form above is not a traditional form in the truest sense. Within the Chen style there are several variations. The 56 form is a form that was developed for competition purposes that takes elements of the several variations and levels in Chen style in an attempt to provide a standard by which to judge Chen forms. It is a very good form but is not traditional. It is generally introduced when one is ready to compete. There are quite a few good books and DVDs out there, especially by Chen Zhenglei. He is generally considered to be the lead standard bearer of the 19th generation. As far as I know, he still lives in Chen village but travels extensively worldwide to teach. There are quite a number of videos online, many by the masters cited above, that you can view to see authenic Chen style forms. Good luck on your search.

Feeling a little bluesy this morning

@wandelaar I have not read that particular book. I have read https://www.amazon.com/Essence-Taiji-Qigong-Foundation-Arts-Qigong/dp/1886969639/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1544029738&sr=8-1&keywords=the+essence+of+taiji+qigong+the+internal+foundation+of+taijiquan ... and three others specifically related to martial arts quite a few years ago. I approached qigong from a martial arts perspective. Yes, I have noticed his emphasis on embryonic breathing. But since my trajectory was through martial arts, it was not something I have focused on. So, cannot speak much to it much.

I plan on reading this book. Its now in the number 3 position on my reading list. I have read three or four of YJM's books in the past dealing mostly with martial arts and some qigong. I have always found/felt his material to be genuine in the sense of honest straightforward factual presentation based on his direct experience. So, when you suggested this book, I took note, read some sample material and checked out a few online videos. Since, I have recently decided to renew/reinvigorate my own qigong practice, the appearance of this book seems timely. I tend to follow the old adage: When the student is ready, the teacher appears. I am not disturbed by his use of modern science language to describe qigong concepts. After all, he is not abandoning traditional approach and both modern science and qigong are attempts at describing the same phenomenal world. It seems a fair thing for someone who is knowledgeable about both to show how they might be connected. Thanks for bringing this up.

Please do.

Sunday morning jazz ...

ROLF! Can see how one might think that. Hell, some days I feel 125. What counts is musicianship. Dang, we could start a whole thread on that topic. Instead ...

I have been following this discussion with some interest. Through the going back and laying a foundation of what can be meant by li, I have gained new insight on wuwei and ziran. I have come to see that each thing manifest in the world has its own li and a potential to reach its fullest expression. That the way of the sage (a realized person) is to act in such a way as to not violate the li of the thing on which he is acting or the things around him. This, of necessity, means that the sage takes little action and when he does act he acts without intent (ulterior) of his own and, where possible, in such a manner as to facilitate (assist) in the expression of the li of others. In this manner, the wu in wuwei might best be understood to mean emptiness of intent. As for ziran, the self-so-ness of a thing can be understood as the li of a thing. It is interesting to note two things in this discussion. One that there is no restriction on the scale of li. Everything has li, from a piece of raw jade to a piece of uncarved wood to man and mankind to the universe. Second, that nothing as yet has been said about the relationship between the various li, beyond the notion of wuwei. It would seem this has some fairly significant implications. For example, can one li violate another or is there an implied harmony of all the various li? Indeed, are there even various li or is there just a grand li in which all things participate? I don't anticipate that much more analysis of li, wuwei and ziran will be understaken, since this was provided and groundwork for a discussion into neiye, which I am looking forward to. Most enjoyable and enlightening discussion so far.

If a person thinks in terms of attaining something, that means he believes there is something to obtain or achieve external to his own nature. It means that he fails to realize that his own true nature is the integral nature of the universe itself. - Hua Hu Ching (Ni Hua-Ching)

I would suggest looking into classical Guqin music, especially as a solo instument. Classical Guqin compositions make a lot of use of empty space (pauses, rests, timing) with a lot of contrast with sound. There is quite a lot out there. Great for when you are trying to concentrate but would like a little background sound.

California Dreamin is one of those songs that takes me back to a particular place and time. Thanks

Best and being cared for seem to me to be value judgements which have no meaning from the point of view of Dao. They would be beliefs that only have subjective meaning. I would not call them delusional because that presume the normal point of view to be that existence is otherwise, which I think we can agree is not the case. The point of view of Dao, as presented in the DDJ, is one of impartiality and self-so-ness. Only in the sense that Dao works as it should can we confer any sense of value. As for make-believe, we have to at some point accept a belief in Dao since there is not any hard and fast evidence that we can agree on to support a mutual acceptance. In this sense it is likely no different from other relgious beliefs. Daoisms arguments do appear to be more rigorous than other religious belief because it is difficult to find any contradiction in existence as we know it and it does not require us to make any unreasonable assumptions. Daoism in its classical form may never achieve great popularity again but no doubt it will have some influence on the beliefs we evolve towards. As already pointed out, if Christianity in its classical sense is losing its grip on the west, what is it to be replaced with and are we ready for it?

Doesn't the notion of ziran preclude either argument.

Now that's an interesting line of thought. Clearly, the various religious systems that have come into place have fulfilled a purpose, else why exist at all. And a notion that they are a part of an evolutionary chain ... ready to be outgrown and replaced ... poses some interesting questions. Like, what is required for us to be ready for a change? And, what are the implications of such change?

There's nothing new or innovative about narcissistic epistemological nihilism.

How could we have missed.these.guys.

This is a key point ... and one that I am not sure there is a purely Daoist position. As you point out, our sense of reincarnation is a muddle of various influences ... in the west mostly a Christian hereafter and/or a Buddhist notion of cyclical rebirth. Reincarnation ... especially the Buddhist variety ... has a strong connotation of something being accumulated and carried forward in successive lifetimes. But what could that something be? Certainly not the memory of the trivial events from one lifetime or another. It would seem ... as I understand it from Buddhism ... to be some type of accumulated merit (or otherwise) leading to a more or less idealized ... or at least by some reconing of improved ... future state. But Daoism seems to be focused on the realization of existence as a unity. So, if Daoism does consider reincarnation, do successive lifetimes accumulate to a point of realization? I seem to recall in some text somewhere where realiztion is discussed, that realization can come as a instantaneous flash of insight without a requisite build up of effort. That would suggest that some effort ... whether in a lifetime or many ... might be neccessary in the ordinary case. It certainly does appear that in the west Chistianity is losing its grip, especially for those that place heavy value on salvation and the hereafter. I think this is evidenced by a general increase hedonism that is evident. The standards of moral living are breaking down as a result. What's to replace them?

Guess it would depend on what you'd call enlightenment and what you think the achievement means. I think the most people's idea of enlightenment is based in a sense of superiority in a worldly sense. That is, the object or state of achievement grants special ability or status in worldly affairs. If there is such a thing as enlightenment in Daoism, seems like it would be more in the sense of realization. That is, recognizing how the Dao and the manefest world work and thereby understanding how to live in harmony in a natural sense. If that's enlightenment ...

Well, from what I understood of Buddhism, I thought the goal was to escape reincarnation.

Yeah, I was hoping to avoid that question because I think it leads us to a Buddhist discussion of self, something I don't feel like I should speak to. But since this is an opinion thread, I will venture this much ... From what I have understood, Daoist practice is not directed at the extinction of self. It seems to me a goal under Daoism is realization that there is no distiinction between self and other. Maybe someone can help us fill in this thought ... or correct it, as needs be.

Literally, it would mean for some thing to be embodied again. That would seem to mean spirit, if one considers energy to be a physical quality. Continuation of one's self would imply that some recognizable aspect of being is carried forward into another embodiment. Questions about the existence of a self aside, does it suggest a continuation or re-embodiment of knowledge?

My notions of reincarnation are guided by several fundamental observations on existence. One is the law of conservstion of energy. If one is composed of matter and energy, it seems to make sense that when one passes, a dissociation takes place. That the material part is returned to the earth ultimately to be repurposed. The energy part returns to the total energy of the system, the universe. This seems to be in keeping with Ch 40 of DDJ ... That is, the principle of reversion being the way of Dao. The passing away and reemergence of life. But what of spirit? Daoist traditions make much of the material form of body, of energy and of spirit. On passing, what becomes of the spirit. How is it conserved? How is it reverted? Not sure I have a lot of answers to the latter. But feel strongly that there is more to being than just physicality and cognitive knowledge. In my own experiences there has been instances of quite strong affinity or aversion to particular people, places and things. Whether that is something being conveyed by spirit and passes down through reincarnation is worth pondering. I have never sensed a recall of specific details beyonnd that. I think in a way we all carry down something of past generations that influences what we are or can become. What your wife expressed is a perfectly valid sentiment and I have no doubt that in some sense it will be carried through. One thing for sure, you will all be making the journey together. Wishing you well.