OldDog

I liked the Slingerland talk very much. I have long believed that human progress happens in an unbalanced way. That is, from a pure science point of view we have gained a lot of understanding and sophistication. But socially (or politically ... or spiritually ... or other) we have not progressed in a manner that will allow us to make good use of what science has been able to accomplish. Particular doctrines aside, I think socially, we can learn a lot from social psychology, philosophy and other areas ... but only if they are posited in a non-exclsionary manner. After all, if one considers that all are efforts to ddescribe the same thing ... the one existence we find ourselves in ... then all points of view have some validity but by no means are complete ... or will ever have the ability to be, if they take an exclusionary position. Slingerland is simply trying to point to the truth using language he is familiar with. He appears to have taken taoist concepts and attempted to show how they can fit into a modern context. Only through such efforts can we advance human understanding socially, philosophically, spritially, politically ... to make use of what we have learned to the benefit of all.

Yeah, I agree. Though I tend to be more solitary than most. I have always placed a high value on having time to read and reflect on same.

Worries and troubles come from our human and social entanglements and attachments to things. The more one has, the more one is invested in conforming to social standards, the greater the chance of feeling constrained and unsatisfied. Yet, it is these things that we are most familiar with. And even though we find ourselves oppressed by them, we fear letting go of them because we accept that they are what define us. Our true humanity (using Wandelaar's term) lies in being free enough from our circumstances to be able to live naturally. From a Daoist point of view this is definitely a shot across the bow of Confucian doctrines. Confucius was good at providing the standards and rules for organizing society ... and to some extent, society may need such doctrines. They provide a framework for large groups of peoples to live together. But they do little to help the individual wrestle with his own feelings. As I read this, I thought how many historical figures reached a point in their lives ... some sooner, some later ... where they give up their commissions and retired to the mountains away from society.

Interesting video. I have a lot of respect for CZL. This video has to be understood in the right way. It is not a discussion about macro/microcosmic orbit. It is a discussion about traditional taiji training methods contrasted with the macro/microcosmic orbits. The discussion may have been prompted by a question about the macro/microcosmic orbits but I do not think that was the main point. Still though a very nice video.

I too have trouble with this particular passage of ZZ. I like a good paradox as much as the next guy ... but these sorts of negation word games lead me to nothing ... they don't seem to advance any argument or understanding. Feel the same way about Zen koans. I would probably have to take up Buddhist philosophy to understand where these things are supposed to lead us. I do appreciate the pieces revolving around the unity of all things. That makes sense to me. I cannot take the point of view that it doesn't matter what happens in our lives, as suggested by Wandelaar, if I understood him right. I can see how wrestling with these kind of paradoxes can lead one in frustration to abandon them and conclude it does not matter. But I find that risky thinking. Leads all too easily to all sorts of notions ... fatalism, nihilism ... which in turn can lead to self justification of anything one wishes to do. This is all too common today. They are beyond me.

Fair enough!

Game day ... feeling a bit country

What does it mean to understand? Real understanding of Dao is not just a cognitive thing. When the words are really understood the take root deeply in the heart and mind. Then in ones dealings with the world one is always aware of understanding and actions are natural and in accord with the times. This is practice in understanding. Elsewhere it is said: When the highest type of men hear the Tao (truth), They try hard to live in accordance with it. (Ch 41) One that understands the words has taken them to heart and lives by them and proceeds in his actions in humility. This is what is meant by wearing coarse on the outside but guarding the jade within.

Yes. There are many such pairings that can be understood in this manner, which is how the Dao is manifest in the world. Whenever such pairings present themselves, I find it helpful to keep this understanding in mind.

And yet these usages persist. Use of virtue seems to be highly dependent upon context. As received by each person the conext would be that person's experience.

From the Yijing I came to appreciate ... Heaven/male creates and emits ... Earth/female receives and nurtures. Without female there would be no place for creating ... without male there would be nothing to nurture. Neither has meaning without the other.

A psychedelic treatment ...

Wasn't aware taiji needed an alternative ... christian or otherwise.

Although I have not read this particular book, I have read two or three other books by the author, Yang Jwing-ming. In martial arts circles he is known for his publications on internal martial arts and qigong. From my reading, he does not espouse a strong daoist view, except that which internal martial arts might otherwise have some association with. His writings are reasonable well respected. This might be an interesting read.

I was about to ask about that. This discussion started out with comparing/contrasting central channel and heart. It became clear that in practice there is a distinction. Then the discussion move in a different direction. But I was not seeing reference to what the Guanzi refers to ... at least in Hinton's translation as the heart-mind. Just seems like a complete discussion of the heart would have to include this context ... which is what I understand your point to be.

Ain't no guarantees ... not in this life. You pays your money and you takes your chances.

Not necessarily. The key phrases from the passage may be ... ... mounted on the Way and integrity. He evolves together with the times. Taking harmony as his measure. This seems to be the Daoist approach to life in a nutshell. As I read this and contrasted it with the passage refering to ... those concerned with circumstances ... human relationships , what came to mind were the people that I have known ... some I care very much about ... who seem to be in constant contention with circumstances ... cannot let something pass ... take things too personally and seriously. Now, we all tend to do that to some degree or another but for some it is obsessive. How much better off ... happier ... would they be if could learn to evolve with the times and learn to harmonize with circumstances. Just a thought.

I don't think I would go that far. It certainly would not be very practical advice. As I see it, a lot of what happens in life is unexpected. When the unexpected occurs one adapts as best one can. Should one bother to set some goals and make plans for getting there? Of course one should. But as a wise man once remarked, as soon as you make a plan its obsolete. So, you adjust the plan as you go. I like the sailing analogy. You set your eye on your destination but because the winds vary you do not follow a straight line. You tack with the changes in the winds.

The only lesson thst I can see in this story is thst events occur and circumstances change, largely directed by what we do and how we live our lives. The best advice the master can give is to try to move with the times and be in harmony your surroundings ... and in doing so not invite any misfortune unnecessarily. In this regard the master seems no better off than the rest of us.

This is about as good an explanation as I have heard. Sets an appropriate level of expectation. I have always likened it to kind of a melding or layering process overtime: learn to relax ... song ... ting. Things like tingling sensations, heat, etc are just by products along the way. I do not claim to be very accomplished but what you have described is consistent with what I have been taught. In my practice (Chen style) there is some emphasis on static postures early on. Chen postures are a bit more strenuous ... wide, low ... and thus offer greater opportunity for error. It takes time and effort to get there but necessary. A lot of emphasis in correction by the master. But learning to relax in a static posture that is correctly aligned allows, over time, for the development of musculature support necessary for the postures and maintain alignment. Constant repetition of instruction to relax, sink. I have heard listening used in two ways. The manner you describe listening above becomes important initially in push hands training. Learning to sense opponents balance and intent ... while maintaining your own sense of song, ting. This is said to be the development of listening skill. The other way has been in qigong and meditation. That rather than focus attention in a contrived manner on the lower dan tien ... which as you point out can be a distraction in itself ... one can gently listen ... almost in a literal sense ... to a place just behind you. I have used this in my practice and all other things being correct ... alignment, proper support, relaxed ... it has proved helpful. This is aspect of listening is what came to mind from your previous post. Does this use of listening find meaning in your experience?

The 60s was all about musicianship. This just shows to go ya ... Lost about half my hearing to this back in 68.

That should get us started ...

Oh, wow, man ... far out!

OK.