OldDog

Well, it appears.that I am going to have to investigate Ta-Kao. I like the expression of DDJ29 very much. I see what you mean by distractions of acedemic craze. His manner of expression seems very relaxed and natural - without pretense. This chapter came to mind last night rather vividly in response to something else I was reading. I came here looking for different takes on the first lines. My feeling was that it is speaking of those who would seek to bend or manipulate, as per Lin. That such efforts can cause damage in the world but the Dao will ultimateely seek to rebalance itself. The advice of wuwei seems especially applicable to.this chapter. Thanks a bunch!

Generally, yes, I think so. However, I tend to think of the Yijing as something more. I have little interest in divination. ( I just have not found a conviincing argument that allows me to accept that there is some "devine" mystic connection of specific personal events to a particular guiding hexagram.) I look on thr Yijing more as a book of wisdom. That it is a very detailed text that illustrates how change is likely to take place based upon natural evolution of events. I had started a more detailed study of the Yijing at the beginning of the year but have since been diverted to a more detailed study of the DDJ, especially an effort at finding a more detailed context for understanding the Dao. Part of that study has been considering the poetic nature of the text. While I do not speak or read Chinese, I am convinced that some of the best translators of DDJ are.those that are able to provide a consistent reliable translation while preserving the poetic sense of the verses.

What a remarkable thing to have done! I'm sure for most of us it is more a mental and/or an intuitive process. That you actually wrote down your inderstanding in such a thorough and complete manner is remarkable. I wonder ... how long ago was that? If awhile, and you go back and reread, how does it seem to you? Do you find your understanding has changed significantly over time?

In my readings the notion that the lessons in DDJ and other texts are scalable certainly seems present; if not in so many words, then by comparison of how concepts can be seen as applied in governing a country vs oneself, actions of a ruler vs sage, etc. Its not too far a leap to apply to other categories, wherever you can see such analogies. I think that is part of the value of the ancient writings. The writers, in a reductionist sort of way, deliberated on things, compared and contrasted, discussed and debated, and identified the archtypical concepts and then expressed them in a way that allows later generations to be able to apply them in different contexts. Just, MHO

Hey, guys! As I recall, Fred Hoyle may have brought forward the term Big Bang but it was meant as a derisive shot at George Gamow, who was the Big Bang exponent of the time. The Big Bang v Steady State debates of that time are legendary ... and quite humorous. Your posts prompted me to inquire about the state of the Big Bang theory today. One line of thought appears that it may have been more of a bounce than a bang. The lecture below is now 20 years old but illustrates how far thinking has progressed from the Big Bang. http://www.hawking.org.uk/the-beginning-of-time.html Enjoy!

As to who, some would argue that the answer is the Dao; that is, it is self-so. Some may take issue with the anthropomorphism, "Who". I am OK with that since I understand the use as metaphor. In fact, I rather like it.

Is the sky revolving around? Is the earth remaining still? Are the sun and the moon competing for their places? Who manages them? Who holds them in control? Who has nothing to do and is making these things move? - Chuangtse (Lin Yutang)

Joe Bob sez, Check it out.

The Heaven and Earth join, And the sweet rain falls, Beyond the command of men, Yet evenly upon all. - TTC 32 (Lin Yutang) Now that's poetic!

My introduction to the Tao Te Ching came by way of The Wisdom of Laotse by Lin Yutang. It has remained my favored translation for many years, for a number of reasons. Two reasons stand out. First, is that Lin managed to render into form that is more poetic than most. I think that is important in a translation. It allows the translator to go beyond just blindly translating the words. Poetic form has the capacity to express more than just words. Second, following each chapter of TTC, Lin provides excerpts from Chuangtse that relate to the meaning of the chapter. So, in reading The Wisdom of Laotse, you get not only a well considered poetic rendering of Laotse but a supporting sampling of one of his earliest exponents. Still, I have come to understand the great benefit of the work of other translators from different points of view. I can't recall exactly where I found it but I downloaded a pdf by B. Boisen from 1996 where he simply lays out in parallel eight different translations of TTC; Wu, Lau, Chan, Henricks, Waley, Lin, Cleary and Feng/English. I refer to it often when questions come up regarding the meaning of particular chapters. Recently, I have been taken by the work of Dan G Reid. I am not sure how well regarded his work is considered. I am currently reading The Thread of Dao and in it he often cites his own translation of the Tao Te Ching. I have found them to be different and insightful. So, I have ordered a copy of his Ho-Shang Kung Commentary on Lao Tsu's Tao Te Ching. Looking forward to reading it.

The Dao is everywhere ... 😉

Heaven arms with love Those it would not see destroyed. - TTC 67 (Lin Yutang)

I have been a student of the Daodejing for many years. My study has largely consisted of reading various translations and interpretations of DDJ and reflecting on its meanings. I think this is the way many of us have started with Daoism. As I read the various translations and interpretations of DDJ, I began to see the influences that the writers had on rendering the work; their point of view, as it were. As must be the case, these points of view are decidedly western, and quite often Christian. Even the more scholarly efforts, in spite of best intentions, often contain traces of western and Christian thinking. Being aware of this, you can recognize it and make what ever accommodations you feel inclined. Still, I began to suspect that some publications were actually more interpretations than translations, particularly the less scholarly ones. Researching the background of the writers, particularly their ability with written and spoken Chinese, and reviewing the bibliographies of their works, helps in sensing how much more a work is of interpretation than translation and the amount of value you can place on the work. This has led me to question how informed the translations are ... or rather, how the translations were informed? What, beyond ability with the Chinese language is necessary to translate a work like the DDJ. Knowledge of Chinese culture, as a matter of general understanding, certainly contributes to translation, as does understanding of Chinese history. Even so, as I read the various DDJs, I still struggled with the seemingly enigmatic language and symbolism of the translated text, despite having tried to select works of knowledgeable translators. Many translators don't provide much explanation. Simply relying on the truthful feel of the DDJ, however strong, was not developing my understanding. I just felt the need for a more appropriate and specific context in which to make sense of the DDJ. Something that might make the DDJ more actionable in terms of practice of the ideas put forward. To that end, I began to look at translations of other source texts. Certainly, there is no shortage of references to such texts, particularly in the more scholarly translations. I settled on two such works that have opened up for me a whole different level of understanding of the DDJ; The Seal of the Unity of the Three by Fabrizio Pregadio and The Thread of Dao by Dan G Reid. It is with this backdrop that I start this thread. I am not a scholar or academic but simply one on the journey, seeking to share my impressions. My hope is that others, familiar with these works or not, will share their ideas as well. So, initially, what do the Bums think of these two works in general and how have you used them? btw, this is my first attempt to initiate a thread. If I am violating and rules, customs or conventions, please let me know. ; )

Fabrizio Pregadio chose a rather lengthy title for his work, The Seal of the Unity of the Three. Going forward I will refer to it by its traditional name, Cantong qi. I don't recall who originally recommended this book but I am grateful. My goal at the time was primarily to develop a better understanding of the Yijing. Like the Daodejing, the Yijing is shrouded in the similar enigmatic language. I have little interest in the Yijing as a divinatory text. I think divination is a bit of a misty-twisty passage, to borrow an early gaming phrase; once you go that way, it almost becomes an end in and of itself and a distraction from a broader study of Dao. I needed a way of cracking the enigmatic language and symbolism, though. I had always understood there exists a Daoist alchemy tradition and in discussions of the DDJ and Yijing you find not infrequent comment that particular words or phrases are actually references to alchemical processes. Like divination, I felt like alchemy might be yet another misty-twisty passage. But if that tradition had keys to understanding the enigmatic language, it might well be worth a look. So, approaching cautiously, I downloaded a sample Pregadio's work. It included a passage that cinched it for me. "... while I was consulting several traditional commentaries in order to translate the text, I had begun to notice that, in addition to the mainstream Neidan interpretation, there has also been a different, less well-known way of reading the Cantong qi within the Taoist tradition. In this view, alchemy is one of three major subjects dealt with in the text, and referred to in its title; the other two are a cosmology that explicates how the world is related to the Dao, and a description of the highest state of realization, which is defined as the Taoist non-doing, or Wu Wei." (pp xi) Well, this was great! Not only was Pregadio's book going to provide help with enigmatic language, it was going to relate not just to alchemy but to cosmology and Daoism in general. So, I bought the book and dove in. The book, in and of itself, is quite a scholarly presentation. While the translated Cantongqi itself is less than 60 pages, it is preceded in Pregadio's work by a 63 page introduction, where he lays out his approach and addresses many of the usual questions of provenance ( naming, authorship, dating ) as well as establishing the main ideas that he intends to draw out. The remainder of the 300 page work is taken up by extensive notes and other supporting material. Now, I am not intentionally shilling for the book. I genuinely am impressed with the book as a scholarly work. But many are not familiar with this work and I want give some idea of its relevance and credibility. The main thing is that the book is not just a esoteric alchemy treatise but can have a broader appeal in a generalized study of Daoism and cosmology and can inform the study of both the Yijing and Daodejing.

I certainly concur with the notion of that for a good translation more than just being able to substitute one word for another is needed. Interesting that you should choose a word like 'grace' to describe the ability of a good translator. Grace is not a word I use frequently ... but it does convey a meaning well. And undoubtedly, knowldge of the subject matter or philosophy is important. I vasilate when it comes to emphasizing fluency in the source language vs the language being translated to. I believe that language and thought process are intricately entwined and that they affect each other in subtle but dramatic ways. Chinese is so different in structure from say English that it is hard to say which side of the language tranlation barrier is more important. Certainly, at least some fluency with both is required. I do wonder though, that a native speaker of Chinese thinks significantly different than a native speaker of English ... or German ... or Spanish. What about a sense of poetry or prose? Is that a component of 'grace'?

'The one who thinks he does not know is profound, and the one who thinks he knows is shallow. The former deals with the inner reality, the latter with appearance.' Zhuangzi. (Lin Yutang)

Jackson Browne tends toward social statements ... not everyones cup o tea ... but still a fine musician.

Feeling a bit reflective this morning.

As long as we are going down memory lane with supergroups ...

One of the most brilliant collaborations in R&R history ....

What it [the mind] finds to be true, it accepts, and what it finds to be false, it rejects. For this reason I say: what the mind apprehends, allow it to do so without restraining it. Allow things to spontaneously appear to the mind in their breadth of diversity, with the extent of the mind’s nature remaining not-two. XunZi (Dan G Reid)

Yes and no. Going through the motions on a scheduled basis CAN reduce meditation to a ritual process ... but it does not have to necessarily always lead to that. And, I can't make the leap to idolatry worship. I set aside time for meditation (as a deliberate focused activity) that attempts to reconcile my worldly schedule with periods of natural receptivity during the day. Does that always produce the optimal result? No, but there is a certain amount of value in the effort. It allows for time to develop understanding of the impediments I may have to gaining the optimal result. In subsequent sessions those impediments are more easily noticed and dealt with. So, there is a cumulative affect. Practice. If my scheduled meditation sessions consistently fail to achieve an optimal result ...or any new insight ... then, yes, idolatry worship, perhaps. And, it would probably be a good idea to move on to some other activity. Then there is another kind of mindfulness practice that can occur without being scheduled. These are oppprtunities presented randomly through out the day. They present as brief moments of unusual awareness, insight or clarity, which are easily dismissed. Taking a moment to recognize these instances is itself a form of practice that can lead to a more involved life experience. Through practice, it becomes easier to recognize the next opportunity for mindfulness. Again, a cumulative affect. Failure to capture those moments on a consistent basis leads to a life experience that is lacking in meaning and ultimately unfulfilling. Excuse my butting in but I felt compelled to offer this view. Interesting discussion. Thanks.

Joe Bob says check it out.

When I first read about hexagram 41, Sun, image of Decrease with Sincerity (Wilhelm), my attention was drawn to the idea of Sincerity. I brushed over Decrease, assuming that the context of the inquiry would provide the insight to what should decrease. This may have been a mistake but more on that in a bit. On inquiring about the nature of sincerity and following up on hmesker's semantic discussions on youfu an fu, much was revealed about the nature of sincerity, if not the origin of sincerity. Most revealing is the notion of sincerity as a quality of appropriate response/activity that has two main attributes, correctness and connectedness. Correctness has to do with the manner or form of the response/activity. No single word is adequate but in reading several I Ching translations it is variously described as genuine, faithful, respectful and perseverant. Connectedness is revealed as having two potentials: being connected to the outcome or being connected to the process of the response/activity. I found this to be remarkable in that it is only when I think of being connected to the process that the correctness of the effort comes into meaning. This then brings me back to the notion of Decrease. The use of the word decrease leaves some ambiguity as to whether it is an end result, as in state of being, or an activity, as in process. Some translators prefer the use of the word Reduction (Cleary). Reduction seems more descriptive of a process and seems to align with notions of correctness. If process is the better way of thinking about Decrease/Reduction, then what is it that is to be decreased or reduced. Does it vary with context or is there something that could be the object of the process that is appropriate for all contexts? At this point, I have to say that I am seeing two different traditions of Taoism at work here and this is where my understanding is feeling a little thin. There seems to be a more mainstream tradition, probably influenced more by Confucianists, and one that seems to be more Neidan oriented. Cleary's, The Taoist I Ching, appears to be representative of the latter. He makes frequent reference to Liu I-ming who comes from the Niedan tradition. It is in Cleary's translation that I find the notion of Reduction explained as a process that seems to provide the best overall explanation of hexagram 41. "... reduction as a path means not following desires but stopping desires; many people cannot be sincere in it. If one cannot be sincere, one may start but will not finish; then not only will one fail to gain good fortune, one will also bring on blame." So, hexagram 41 advises that the times call for decrease/reduction of excess (desire, emotions), which must be done with sincerity (humility and correctness) over the long haul (perseverance). Through sincerity you remain connected to the process of reduction. This path leads to success not misfortune. Thus the process and manner of performance are specified. This advise would be appropriate for most, if not all, contexts. This investigation of hexagram 41 has been a good exercise for me. I would appreciate hearing others thoughts. Thanks