anshino23

Excellent point. One of the issues I ran into is that of teachers claiming that the lineage they are part of is flowing through them, but there's no actual exposition on this lineage - it's regarded as being purely a spiritual transmission and therefore it is subject to the higher beings and the teacher simply says that he or she is in contact with those specific higher beings through the higher realms and is taught continuously only through those realms - but does not have an incarnated teacher here on Earth. The teachings then are also just sponteanously manifesting from the teacher - but there's no clear line, and lots of different claims usually come up as to the nature of the lineage. Which makes it all that more confusing.

This is such a profound lesson. Thank you for sharing it. I wish all would accept it, but it requires a lot of humility and to admit "I don't know", even when you feel like you do. I recall being taught the same through the story of the Buddha within the Mahayana. There is always resistance of ignorance towards truth. For example, when the Buddha ate food after awakening to the Middle Path, the ascetics who followed him thought he had gone astray and left him. Many sages of the past have also had such an experience - they cling so strongly to a notion, an idea, and unless that is relinquished, it's very difficult to get out of as you point out, and can derail the entire Path, and maybe even get you into lots of trouble.

@forestofemptiness: We had a bit of a discussion on this topic in one of the threads I opened. Freeform was kind enough to give his opinion and view on the different approaches having himself learned from a "Top-Down" tradition to begin with and then contrasting that with his now on-going bottom-up approach. Here it is if you want to have a look and haven't yet

AFAIK, authentic Buddhist traditions do

Of course he could if it's genuine attainment What do you want? Names? A list? Haha. Read some Buddhist books and autobiographies and see for yourself. The Life of Shabkar The Life of Milarepa Great Disciples of the Buddha: Their Lives, Their Works, Their Legacy Sky Dancer: The Secret Life And Songs Of Lady Yeshe Tsogyel

If it's not Yang Qi, what is it? As I understand it Yang Qi feels like touching an electric fence like you describe and Yin Qi feels magnetic, and the Masters that have the ability can give both types of transmission depending on what is needed.

Another important point to remember is really that most people don't have a dantien. Strictly speaking, as I understand it, you can't have a dan-tien unless you have a dan and a tien. You can have a field (Tien), but to get to the Elixir (Dan) stage, you have to move through the process of internal alchemy (neidan) which is very advanced and far beyond my understanding (for now).

My advice is just to continue following the program. If you continue being in doubt... see a teacher who can help you get it.

Read Damo's books.

Yes, the book is great. I can highly recommend it. I've found it to be an incredibly lucid description of the YJJ principles and how the "Neigong" body is developed and transformed. It also goes into the nature of jing, the movement of Yang Qi and goes into a bit of Qi to Shen and has some extra stuff on the central channel. It's a great read IMHO Very inspiring.

In the Dhammapada (ch. The Path) it says, "Wisdom springs from jhana; without jhana wisdom wanes. Having known these two paths of progress and decline, let a man so conduct himself so that his wisdom may increase." If you read the fruits of the contemplative life sutra, the Buddha talks about attaining the jhana state, which then gives birth to insight. There is no jhana without insight and no insight without jhana - both are inseperable. Vipassãna means insight, but there is no such thing as Vipassana meditation. Instead, the Buddha uses the word "sati" which would be equal to mindfulness as you mention. But that is different than vipassana meditation. As you also bring up yourself, the Buddha has desdcribed many ways to bring one to liberation; but the main premise is always on awareness/sati. This then describes the maga (practice) leading to phala (fruit). As I understand it, wisdom or prajna can only be attained when one is in a deep, still, equianimous and altered state of consciousness (absorption/samadhi). I think the issue comes from learning from translations and not from teachers with actual attainments There are unfortunately many Western teachers that are great and unfortunate examples of this. Yes, and I think this is a great example that we are in the Dharma Ending Age, where genuine jhanas are incredibly difficult to attain, and confusion and delusion abounds everywhere. That's why a genuine teacher/master and hopefully also an authentic lineage is so important in these arts. I know that many public "teachers" want to "lower the bar" and call any brief state of joy and bliss genuine samadhi and claim enlightenment, but I think it's actually doing the Dharma a disservice. Though I recognise I may be one of the few that consider that being the case. Haha, let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I agree with you I'm not saying -- at all -- that people are not getting better or gaining merit or reaching some degree of development; the only thing I'm claiming is that most simply won't reach those high levels of development, and instead may simply be reaching semblance stages of development, but don't go through the full process . I think living an honest life and being a caring and loving person is a beautiful thing and incredibly important - Dharma teachings involved or not. Transforming one's mortal bones into those of an immortal however is not an easy thing... And even Olympic athlete level dedication might not get you there. That is ultimately what we are discussing, and the opening topic is actually on building the very basic level physical body that may support one in moving toward that goal, whether one gets there or not. But that's okay, too. We have countless lifetimes ahead of us, and certainly any contact at all with the Dharma in any of its myriad forms will be a good thing.

Haha. I think Master Nan answered that quite nicely, it's quite extensive. But the basic idea, as I understand it, is that the true purpose of the Dharma is to end suffering. But then the question becomes does one continue to suffer after awakening? It's like a person recognising that throwing rotten meat into a river causes food poisoning in a village. One may have realised the dangers of doing that, but does one do anything about continuing the discarding of meat into the river? In the same way, upon awakening, there is still work to be done. Realising one is still bound by karmic ties, one has to purify the remaining two bodies (nirmāṇakāya / rūpakāya and the saṃbhogakāya). "As to the perfect reward body, the rupakaya, this is the result of one's cultivation work and is very difficult to achieve. I mentioned before the thirty-two marks of a Buddha and the eighty detailed physical characteristics. The body of anyone who has succeeded in cultivation, attained the Tao, has undergone a complete physical transformation. This physical body is the reward body. Why is it called the "reward body"? Actually, everyone's body is a "reward body." If throughout one's life one is very comfortable and fortunate, this is the reward of previous virtue. Others may experience a lot of pain and suffering and lead a very pitiful life. Their body is the result of non-virtuous actions in a previous life. Through cultivation work, we transform this karmic reward body. In the Taoist school, they describe the process as getting rid of illness to lengthen one's life and achieving immortality. This is talking about transforming the reward body. Achieving the perfect reward body is gaining complete liberation, changing mortal bones into immortal bones and gaining every kind of super power. This is extremely difficult to achieve. The perfect reward body is very difficult to cultivate. The Taoist cultivation, opening qi mai, as well as Esoteric cultivation, opening the three channels and seven chakras, both start from the reward body. Samatha and samapatti (stopping and introspection), the Pure Land practice of reciting the Buddha's name and vipassana meditation are all examples of practices which mainly cultivate the dharmakaya. When one cultivates to the point where he or she has at will another body outside of this physical body, this is the sambogakaya or transformation body functioning. This is a very basic overview of the three bodies. The average person who practices Buddhist or Taoist cultivation works on the dharmakaya. The Esoteric school emphasizes the achievement of the three bodies because only when one achieves the three kayas has one successfully completed the Path. This is also called completion in one lifetime. "In one lifetime," means in this one lifetime to settle the question of life and death, to succeed at achieving the three bodies. In theory, this can be done, but in actuality, it is of the utmost difficulty. One must achieve perfection of vinaya (discipline), samadhi and wisdom as well as completely transform this physical body of four elements born of one's parents. Only this can be called completion in one lifetime." I don't think it can be disputed that attachment to the body is an impediment to enlightenment. Who said anything about extremes?

See a TCM or Ayurvedic doctor

@forestofemptiness: Thank you for your replies. I suppose we come from two different schools of thought within Buddhism. What I was taught by one of Master Nan Huai Chin's students was that genuine dhyana and wisdom arise together. It seems that the Western tradition, in particular, has divided it into completely separate aspects. As an example, people in the Western tradition usually talk about Vipassana practices and Jhana practices, but in my view, this is complete bollocks and isn't true at all. Many actually treat meditation as if it was some sort of mental exercise where you train your mind in noting as many sensations as possible (see e.g. Daniel Ingram, who considers himself an Arhat - the highest stage of development within the Theravadan tradition or the lesser vehicle). To someone exposed to what I consider genuine dharma, this proposition is absurd. It is said that when one truly enters the first jhana, one is in the space of devas, one is no longer of the coarse nature of a normal human being - jhanas are a complete transformation of body and mind, not simply a short-lived mental trip. In Master Nan Huai Chin's depiction of the first jhana, he explains this very clearly: To claim enlightenment or even dhyana and genuine absorption without having transformed the body is really a deviation from genuine practice. There's no such thing as "entering dhyana" without also having transformed the body. Yes, it is not waking to the Tao, since that cannot be based in the body or form in any way, but without going through this developmental process of gradual changes and entering into genuine samadhi, wisdom will certainly not arise as absorption and wisdom arise together. If someone has not entered absorption but still has wisdom, it will be of the mundane type and not the supramundane wisdom which is what leads to liberation. I think an important thing to keep in mind here is that it's not like you just go up and ask for it - and it's not either that you necessarily have to wait 10 years before they'll teach you (though that can certainly happen); but it is certainly the fact that if you are already at a high stage of development - the Masters will recognize that and teach you the genuine appropriate techniques that you can handle. So someone like Damo who has been exposed to genuine masters of various traditions, if he had any genuine development (and I personally believe he has) then the teachers of other traditions would naturally want to share more with him than someone who can barely stabilise their mind and has not yet transformed the very basic aspects of their acquired mind. So I would say it is not just about preliminary vs non-preliminary, it is also about whether you have attainments or not. This is a good point and I certainly agree with that. There is always more to the story if the practice is based in an authentic tradition. Wonderful discussion, I want to give thanks to all that are participating in it.

I agree with @Creation. In fact, freeform has brought up the point that there's hardly any results found from beginners trying to visualise deities because they cannot stabilise their minds and visualise all the hundreds or thousands of details that are necessary for it to actually work in the first place. It's also been called the "addition" principle - where when you try to add so many things to your mind that you hope it "snaps" into concentration/shamatha and then emptiness out of pure exhaustion, but IMHO it's not a good method and the people I've spoken to who are great practictioners within Tibetan lineages are certainly not using most of their time visualising, they are, as Creation is saying residing in the natural state of mind (Dzogchen or Mahamudra) or doing immense amounts of dharanis/mantras, Guru Yoga, shamatha and have empowerments from established teachers - they go on long retreats, they take specific alchemical pills, and they absorb into the body in very very specific ways. Please look into the The Practice of the Six Yogas of Naropa (Glenn Mullin translation) and look how much clear energy work they do there. Even there they limit the visualisations to very very small flames - and at that point, they actually already have Tummo going and the empowerments going along with the teachings - so they can enter clear samadhi. @forestofemptiness Can you tell a bit more about how can you know that he's not telling the truth and knows what he's talking about? Doesn't really make sense to me, unless you personally have contact to countless of Tibetan masters and disciples within genuine lineages that get real results. Also it's interesting you bring up the Dalai Lama as if he's one of the most elevated and attained people within the spiritual community - master Nan Huai Chin and others have contended that since the 6th Dalai Lama, the Dalai Lama has actually just been a figure-head but that the highest attained masters of Dzogchen/Mahamudra and of the Kagyu and Nyingmapa school have gone underground, with the highest adepts residing in the Tibetan mountains out of contact to all but the most carefully selected (merit) disciples. The story goes that all of this is due to the times we are currently residing in called the Dharma Ending Age - and most of the teachings publically availaible have almost nothing to do with the real juice of genuine cultivation. They are also called semblance dharmas. I believe for many, its also much easier to have them visualise things and create "sensations" that mimic real attainments but without actually getting anywhere to just help them stabilise their minds, make them happy (it feels good!) and create good connections (hopefully through mantra and karmic resonance) for future lifetimess. Genuine full enlightenment is incredibly rare and the highest achievement for a human being, and I think that's not something we should easily forget, lest we descend into further delusion and ignorance. It is said that in around 40k years (allegedly, there are disputes about the exact timing) the supreme nirmanakaya (uttamanirmāṇakāya) Buddha Maitreya will incarnate on Earth descending from the inner court in Tushita to teach the Dharma anew, turning the Wheel once again.

@forestofemptiness

I'm quite familiar with Huineng and the Platform Sutra, thank you for sharing. But I also think you're taking a bit of a one-sided view... even from a Buddhist point of view. You're right that the fundamental nature is always here unchanging and ceaseless and it's just a question of waking up to that. But full body transformation is also needed. There's a great post on this by late Master Nan Huai Chin saying that realizing the dharmakaya is not enough - it gives great merit, for sure, but you need to cultivate all three bodies (dharmakaya, nirmanakaya and sambhogakaya) for full and complete enlightenment. I refer you to this post: Also that whole thread of discussion would maybe be very interesting for you and includes lots of talk about this stuff.

Honestly, I think you are misunderstanding what Damo says. He actually agrees with you in terms of the non-locality of the true higher mind (as I see it), but that for practical purposes of the neigong process and building a lower dantien, we want it to rest or rather sink under its own weight down into the lower dantien. That's part of the practice. I think it's important to remember he is talking about a process of development here - that's basically what the video is about. He is not talking about the higher stages of Shen or the later stages of alchemy which would are quite involved, and would certainly include that of seeing the true nature of mind. Here's a quote from Damo's book called A Comphrensive Guide to Daoist Neigong: "Much of the Nei Gong process that involves building, regulating and circulating Qi is not serving to nourish the Yuan Shen; in the same manner, those precepts and guidelines that you choose to follow are also not helping you to develop your Yuan Shen. This means that these kinds of practice are not really a spiritual practice; they may, however, be laying the foundations for progressing into this kind of art further down the line. This is why, to me, Nei Gong is a great foundation for meditative training, but it is the meditative training that is really going to do the ‘work’ with your spirit. As a consequence, we can lay out the development of our practice as shown in Figure 12.1. Here, we see a progression from working with the body, the energy system, the mind and then, finally, the spirit. (The figure shows a picture of a pyramid with four divisions, on the bottom is Physical Body - Body 'conditioning', then Energy System - Internal Work, then Mind - 'Self' development, then finally Spirit - 'No Self' development at the top of the pyramid.) This may seem like a very exact, black and white way of looking at the term. I apologise for this – yes, it is a very definite way of looking at it, but it is my view that the ‘spiritual’ community in the wider sense has often struggled to really know what they are doing! Too many woolly definitions and blurred lines between practices has meant that everything becomes a ‘spiritual practice’, when this may not actually be the case. The development of Yuan Shen will lead a person to the stage of Shen Ming. This is the Daoist equivalent to the term ‘enlightenment’. It is the stage of mergence with the Dao so that a person is ‘true’.

This is an excellent explanation and is also exactly how Damo explains the body opening in the first week. Going along with him and doing the stretches, it truly is quite amazing how much more of a stretch you get when you soak your mind into the tissues.

Alright thanks. I thought ming-based practiced were primarily for the jing to qi aspect, then the qi to shen would be more of alchemical and meditative work, but perhaps I misunderstood something. Because if Ming-based would be Jing to Qi primarily then that wouldn't affect the transformation of Shen to Xing as I understand it. Maybe I'll have to re-read White Moon again... unless you have any better resource for this

Thank you

What does that mean, beyond the scope of embodied humans? As in, you've already left the body at that point?

Is it just a "choice" one makes at the Xing to Ling stage? Like... I'm just going to keep tranforming my Shen into Xing but not go into Ling? How does that choice work or what determines it?

Does the Shen to Xing aspect have relationship to the different functions of intellect that people speak about or is it just a complete upgrade? I'm thinking more in terms of ... are there specific things that will naturally get upgraded like visualization or memory recall or processing speed, or how does it work exactly? Like would a person that has trouble wiht visualization suddenly have a newfound ability to visualise stuff like seeing things with open eyes? Or how does it work? Very cool

Not much of a conversation in that soundclip. But for those interested, here's the one I was referring to: