anshino23

I disagree. Controlling a weak body might be easier, but you'll also be weaker which has its own set of problems. Vegetarianism and veganism can be hugely detrimental to human health if it's not done right and without the right constitution. Even amongst the Yogis in India, the cow and all its products were heralded for its incredible benefits. So ghee, cow's milk, cheese, and so forth was all eaten en masse. Why? It supports healthy hormonal functioning and strengthens the body. Have a listen here (timestamp: 1:02:18)

Please read the actual paper you sent. It is about the role of aging on mitochondrial biogenesis and reactive oxygen species. This says nothing about abdominal breathing, nor does it suggest that the mechanism by which meditation increases "energy" (which is an ill-defined term, to be fair in this investigation thus far) is through increased oxygen. In fact, in some forms of meditation, e.g. anapana, you gradually decrease your inspiration and the breath actually stops (breath cessation), which I would imagine leads to increased levels of carbon dioxide and not necessarily just increased oxygen as seen in hyperventilation or deep abdominal breathing.

I hear you on that. Do you have any "research notes" on who is doing the manipulation and corruption? There are many different theories, but it seems that in most of the major religious and spiritual schools there are certain groups of beings that work against humanity's natural potential. To what end, I am not sure. Interesting topic...

I think the OP is alluding to the esoteric idea that much of the greed and corruption that exists in humanity isn't humane but is actually an outside source interference - specifically certain alien species which drive humanity toward negativity, fear, anger rather than love, compassion, understanding, etc.

Did I imply that it settled it? It was more of an open question than a statement of fact. I don't know what's possible. I'm open to all of it. If you believe in Buddhas and immortals, then transforming and curing chronic ailments isn't much a stretch of imagination.

I think it will require a very high level of wisdom to understand the true nature of emptiness - which is what the last stage of the Path alludes to - and is that which the Diamond Sutra points to. Samsara and nirvana are fundamentally the same from the ultimate perspective, or in Buddhist terms the absolute perspective, but it is not that way for all of us who are still trapped in the relative perspective and have yet to awaken. Dzogchen also touches on this aspect at length. I can't speak from personal experience, but if we go by the teachings/accounts of enlightened ones, they claim that they look at a mountain and do not differentiate that as a "there" and a "here". in fact, they look at both us and all they see is that everything is One and from the same source. All dualities having completely vanished. For instance, the Buddha describes the fourth jhana as a place where dualities of pain and pleasure vanish. Furthermore, he describes the eight samadhi as the place where both perception and non-perception vanishes. So nibbana, according to the teachings, is where there is the unconditioned, which means that any idea of duality, even the idea of non-duality, vanishes completely and beyond a trace. That's because there is no self-nature in anything compounded. See the teaching of anatta. Another way of elucidating this point is to use the teachings of the Platform Sutra by Huineng. The story goes, that the fifth patriarch of Zen summoned all his followers and proposed a poem contest to demonstrate their stage of understanding the essence of mind. He would give up his robe and pass down the teachings to to whoever would win the contest and that person would become the Sixth Patriarch. Shenxiu who was a leading disciple wrote the following stanza: The body is the bodhi tree.The mind is like a bright mirror's stand.At all times we must strive to polish itand must not let dust collect. However, Huineng, having reached a much higher level of wisdom, composed the following stanza: The bright mirror is originally clear and pure. Where could there be any dust? Bodhi originally has no tree. The bright mirror also has no stand. Fundamentally there is not a single thing. Where could dust arise? And after speaking with the Fifth Patriarch and being told a verse from the Diamond Sutra, Huineng fully awakened to full enlightenment. He became the Sixth Patriarch. The above stanza to me speaks on the nature of emptiness. Where can any defilements be in the bright mirror? You say "as acquired personal nature and congenital virtuous nature are not fundamentally the same" - but the question would be what is the root of your acquired personal nature? Is it real or unreal? Does that mean that there's a difference between it and the fundamentally pure from the absolute perspective? As I see it, your view is more like the first stanza as I view it since it is based on a duality between pure and impure from the relative perspective, and thus does not show the highest level of wisdom and understanding. Anyway, just my thoughts on it... Food for contemplation for all of us

Just to add to this discussion, would be curious what people would think. Though not Daoist, there's a delineation of the Path to become a Buddha shared in the Yogācārabhūmi-Śāstras that shares the following division of the Path toward Buddhahood. Check it out.

You can choose either but cultivating for siddhis means you are not cultivating for enlightenment, which means that ultimately, you are cultivating for something impermanent and something you can't bring with you and more likely than not, just will bring you more suffering. It won't fix your question and fear about life and death.

There's a great documentary on Osho on Netflix called Wild Wild Country. Highly recommended. Very sad abuse of power.

So in your understanding reaching Buddhahood does not entail immortality? In my understanding the awakening to the Dharmakaya is emphasized by the Buddhist teachings. Upon awakening, one can then transform the sambhogakaya and nirmanakaya vehicles. Here's some more Master Nan on the topic, For the last thousand years, Buddhist and literary scholars as well have argued over which gatha contains the main point of the Diamond Sutra. These lines in the fifth section can also be taken as a gatha. I hope that when you are studying on your own, you will also take this question into consideration. The Buddha said that we should not perceive the Tathagata in form. Everyone who's studied some Buddhism knows that when one becomes a Buddha, one also achieves the three bodies, or kayas. These are the dharmakaya, the sambogakaya and the rupakaya. This is why in some temples you will see three of the same Buddha images on the same altar. They represent the three kayas. This became very popular in China, and by the Tang Dynasty, the Taoist temples were also doing their own form of this. Taoists had the Three Clear Ones: the High Clear One, the Supreme Clear One and the Jade Clear One. This situation is representative of the world of religion in general. Whether they be "Western" or "Eastern," religions do influence each other quite deeply. We've all heard the terms for the three kayas. What do these mean? The dharmakaya is clear and serene, the sambogakaya has billions of appearances, shapes and sizes and the rupakaya is complete and perfect. Let's put Buddhism to one side and look from a philosophical perspective. The dharmakaya is the basic substance, that which all the phenomena in the universe have in common. In modern-day terms, one could loosely use the term "energy wave." The sambogakaya is the outward appearance as it goes through various transformations which can perform many different functions, these functions being the rupakaya. From a philosophical perspective, the three bodies are substance, appearance and function. Everything in the universe has these three aspects. Take water, for example. It can be made into tea, ice-cubes, steam, and so forth, all with different appearance and functions, but no matter how it transforms, the basic substance is still water. We now have some idea of what the three kayas are, in theory at least. In Buddhism, when we say a person has awakened to Supreme Enlightenment, achieved anuttara-samyaksambodhi, to what exactly has one awakened? It is exactly that basic substance of which all life in the universe is comprised, the dharmakaya. In the Heart Sutra, it is called, "neither beginning nor ending, pure nor impure, increasing nor decreasing." In the opening verses preceding the Diamond Sutra, it is referred to in the line, "How to achieve immortality, the indestructible vajrasattva?" The familiar line, "Not a thought arises, the entire body reveals itself" also refers to the dharmakaya. The dharmakaya has no appearance. As to the perfect reward body, the rupakaya, this is the result of one's cultivation work and is very difficult to achieve. I mentioned before the thirty-two marks of a Buddha and the eighty detailed physical characteristics. The body of anyone who has succeeded in cultivation, attained the Tao, has undergone a complete physical transformation. This physical body is the reward body. Why is it called the "reward body"? Actually, everyone's body is a "reward body." If throughout one's life one is very comfortable and fortunate, this is the reward of previous virtue. Others may experience a lot of pain and suffering and lead a very pitiful life. Their body is the result of non-virtuous actions in a previous life. Through cultivation work, we transform this karmic reward body. In the Taoist school, they describe the process as getting rid of illness to lengthen one's life and achieving immortality. This is talking about transforming the reward body. Achieving the perfect reward body is gaining complete liberation, changing mortal bones into immortal bones and gaining every kind of super power. This is extremely difficult to achieve. The perfect reward body is very difficult to cultivate. The Taoist cultivation, opening qi mai, as well as Esoteric cultivation, opening the three channels and seven chakras, both start from the reward body. Samatha and samapatti (stopping and introspection), the Pure Land practice of reciting the Buddha's name and vipassana meditation are all examples of practices which mainly cultivate the dharmakaya. When one cultivates to the point where he or she has at will another body outside of this physical body, this is the sambogakaya or transformation body functioning. This is a very basic overview of the three bodies. The average person who practices Buddhist or Taoist cultivation works on the dharmakaya. The Esoteric school emphasizes the achievement of the three bodies because only when one achieves the three kayas has one successfully completed the Path. This is also called completion in one lifetime. "In one lifetime," means in this one lifetime to settle the question of life and death, to succeed at achieving the three bodies. In theory, this can be done, but in actuality, it is of the utmost difficulty. One must achieve perfection of vinaya (discipline), samadhi and wisdom as well as completely transform this physical body of four elements born of one's parents. Only this can be called completion in one lifetime. Lotus Born In Tibetan Esoteric Buddhism, in addition to worshiping Shakyamuni Buddha, they also worship Padmasambhava. It is said that Padmasambhava is the reincarnation of Shakyamuni Buddha, born eight years after the Buddha's passing. The Buddha was born of the womb and there were many things he could not teach as the founder of the orthodox teachings. Therefore, to found the esoteric teachings, he returned born of a lotus transformation. In southern India, there were a king and queen who were childless and in despair about their situation. While they were in the imperial gardens gazing at the lotuses one day, suddenly one lotus grew taller and larger. Out of the pod in the center burst forth a small boy of flesh and blood. Thus, he was called Padmasambhava, the Lotus Born. As a prince, he was heir to the throne, but just as Gautama Shakyamuni did, he left the royal life at eighteen to follow the way of a monk. Unlike as in his last life however, he did not pass away into nirvana. Instead, he rode into the air on a white horse. Earlier on in Tibet, every year there would be huge celebrations commemorating this. People would perform fire pujas throughout the country. They would burn all kinds of things as offerings-clothing, grains, valuables. Some women would even cut their hair and burn it as an offering. The fires would be kept burning for seven days and seven nights. People encircled the fire, continuously chanting Padmasambhava's mantra. Padmasambhava would always appear on his horse, circle the fire once and then disappear again. Padmasambhava always looks as he did as a young man with two small wisps of mustache. This is to show that he had achieved the perfect reward body. In Taoism, this would be called immortality or "The sun and moon rest together; heaven and earth have the same longevity." Upon achievement of the perfect reward body, the sambogakaya is also naturally achieved. In order to be the role model for Esoteric Buddhism, he had to have had completion in one lifetime for the teaching to be perfect. Now that we understand this, we can see that the Diamond Sutra concentrates on perceiving the dharmakaya. What is perceiving the dharmakaya? It is enlightenment, seeing the Path. The Diamond Sutra is of the prajna (transcendental wisdom) teachings which mainly focus on True Form Prajna. This is the substance of the beginningless source of all life. The rupakaya and sambogakaya are within the prajna visaya. This is why the Buddha said one cannot perceive the Tathagata through the physical form. The Tathagata is the origin of all life, the essential substance of all life. To have faith and reverence is no problem, but to become attached to a form is wrong. Not only in Buddhism is this wrong, but in any other religion as well.

Do you have any examples of people with significant chronic illnesses (such as hypothyroidism, type I diabetes, panhypopituitarism, etc.) curing them through daoist alchemical practice? My point is really that, at least according to what freeform has presented, alchemy is not readily available. It's an advanced stage of practice and doens't happen until after qigong-neigong has gone through to "lay the groundwork". At least that was my understanding. I didn't think that an ill person could go directly to alchemical practice and transform and heal their chronic ailments. Never seen it at least.

Wonderful, sounds similar to the Buddhist traditions as entailed in the Noble Eightfold Path or even in the Eight Limbs of Patanjali That wasn't the point I was disputing or thinking was questionable. I've had breathless meditation many times, it's a wonderful still and powerful state. And no, one does not die. But whether just sitting down and doing breath meditation and entering breathless states leads to full development and rejuvenation without going through the a very specialised Ming process - that's the muddy water part. As I'm sure you've already read by freeform - the methods that are involved in the ming process are hidden and part of lineages - and freeform has emphasized on multiple ocassions that they're not natural at all, and you wouldn't guess them. So if that's the case it seems that just entering breathless meditation states would not lead to the same type of development as would happen if you went the qigong-neigong-neidan route. But what do I know

Tricky tricky. I remember when I brought these things up to my Buddhist friend, he emphasized the following points... Do not fall into grasping at form. Performing practices and methods for health is one thing, and health is certainly a side-effect for those on the right path. However achieving anything else for the sake of it, is not the Buddha's Dharma - the true Dharma is found right here and now in the mundane life, infusing the spiritual into one's daily life, and the highest esoteric practice is in the expression of the Noble Eightfold Path. He re-emphasized to me that I'm not my body, I'm not my chi or its channels, neither am I my chakras, neither am I yuan chi or jing or shen. He advocated only one method and that was awakening through Conscious Light, the One Mind. He said that this is the most direct path that will bring one through to illumination without hassle. Whether it is entry by sound, by light, by nose (breath) and so on - they are all Zen, Ch'an, Mahamudra - i.e. they are both methods of sudden and gradual awakening. Everything else he said is arbitrary. His teacher Master Nan also emphasised to all his students that focusing on the body too much lead to bad habits that would follow one for lifetimes focusing on form instead of focusing on wisdom. He said, like master Nan, that the Path is incredibly simple. Do not dwell. That's the highest method, at every given point, one does not dwell, not in form, not in dharmas. That, he said, is the highest Dharma. But perhaps, as a counterpoint to what is written above and as I think you allude to and have said before, we have no way of actually following that advice because our bodies (and thus our ming) impact us so heavily that we cannot realise Xing nor would working with Xing lead to true transformation. For me at least, it's not a clear cut thing at all, and it seems all traditions have quite different ways of approaching this form vs. essence or ming vs xing conundrum. Thanks for the continued sharing, it's fascinating and a learning experience for sure.

My point to that is perhaps more on the Ming side of things. If you're given a crap body through genetics and poor karma or just poor life circumstances that leads to poor health that leads to a requirement of lifelong substitution therapy (duly note that levothyroxine T4 thyroid drug is the most prescribed drug in the US) with drugs and other medical interventions -- perhaps focusing on mastering other aspects of life and then building merit is the best use of one's time. That being juxtaposed to spending 2-3 hours per day doing Qigong and Neigong stuff working on the physical level (Jing to Qi -- that may not work because of your physical issues) to transform aspects of your genetics that you were born with or arise from the environment you're situated in and unable to leave. If the chance of one making it is so insanely slim and it being next to impossible -- perhaps it is better to focus on loving-kindness, Pure Land cultivation and Xing aspects of cultivation such as shared in both Hinayana and Vajrayana Buddhism. If we go by the Hinayana Buddhist texts, it's clear that the Buddha says that one who cultivates loving-kindness (metta-bhavana) will enter the Brahma realms upon death along with 10 other great benefits listed below. Alternatively, if we use the Tibetan Vajrayana school or go by Mahayana thought one can use Amitabha's grace to enter the Pure Abodes upon death. Allegedly, those realms are inhabited by a Buddha who will teach you directly. In the Pure Land it is described that there is no frustration, no sickness or pain, no problems of male and female. And when one is there, one is already a Bodhisattva and one will naturally enter into the unregressing Bodhisattva stages on the way to Buddhahood. The biggest issue as I learnt it is that to get there requires incredible mind-power in the first place as you have to move nearly 3 thousand great-thousand worlds away from the Earth. In Vajrayana or esoteric Buddhism, I believe this method is known as Phowa. And from what I hear, to get there, one must be able to open the crown chakra. ... Big questions! Form vs. essence. To add to the confusion... there's also Master Nan who says stuff like this ... Clear as mud? Haha.

@freeform: Something I wondered the other day ... if Ming is required to get to Xing, does that mean that people that are born with defective health issues such as say, type I diabetes, panhypopituitarism, etc., cannot reach enlightenment in their lifetime? What can such people do? Are they just out of luck? And should just focus on doing good deeds in their current life and hope for a better rebirth with favorable circumstances, maybe do a lot of mantraing to select Buddhas and deities to make some favorable karmic conditions? As always, interesting discussion. Thanks

@gendao: I profoundly disagree with you. In fact, I would say looking hot is much, much, much less of a thing for guys than girls. Incels are just poor excuses, they're not focused on bettering themselves, they're filled with negativity. It'll perhaps sound silly to you, but I genuinely believe they should forget all about women and focus exclusively on love and kindness instead. By becoming loving and kind, these people will naturally make other people gravitate toward them. I've seen some of their posts and it's ridiculous. Every single image of them and every single post I've seen from their Reddit page has been filled with hate, frustration and anger. Who would want to spend time with a person like that? I even saw some of the "rate incels" pictures, and every single one of the pictures the guy was posing in, he was ridiculously angry and looked like he'd rather kill you than share a cup of tea with you and have a nice conversation. The first step for them would be to work on themselves and their mental attitude. The more they dwell in their own pity about their current predicament, the more they will worsen it. They'll literally become uglier, angrier, and all the traits that absolutely repulse women whom they are obsessed with. The Law of Karma dictates that even your current looks, your current mental standing, and your current mental attitudes have come from lifetimes of habitual entrainment. So if you've spent the past many lives (if you don't believe in that, just see it as rebirth of thoughts from within this life from childhood) being angry and damaging other people, complaining and so forth, and not being helpful or spreading joy, you'll continue only that cycle. They should spend more time in nature and stop masturbating to porn all the time. They should do charity work to open their hearts. They should form friendships with other guys and find hobbies and interests outside of their sexually motivated obsessions based on sexual frustration. They should spend time working out, eating healthy and doing their best on becoming at least a presentable version of themselves. If you cannot take care of yourself, to brush your teeth, to take a shower and to dress in clean clothes, how can you expect anyone to want to suddenly take a huge interest in you - especially when it comes to something like attraction? You are literally saying, "I don't believe in taking care of myself because I'm worthless and everybody hates me" and then complaining that others think you're worthless and hate you ... Do something worthy instead of wallowing in self-pity and start treating your depression by taking care of the low hanging fruits mentioned above. With time, their habits will change, people will find them enjoyable to hang around with or talk, and their life will at the very least have meaning and joy. With such a life their obsession and neediness will be gone, and women will eventually come and healthy relationships will be easy to form.

Happy to hear that.

Maybe check your thyroid health?

I see, thanks. I'll stay clear for now. When I've reached a high enough level of internal energy proficiency, I'll probably be able to discern more clearly for myself the cause effect relationship...

That sounds like it would harm the jing in that case Weight training causing significant damage with long-term negative effects in terms of mobility and pain as described in your example. Not the thing I'm after I'll stay safe with body weight training, cardio and Qigong/Neigong.

Very interesting, thanks. I don't know if you follow a lineage like freeform does though that builds the body in the same manner with the fascia connecting together in the way he describes? It seems there are many differing opinions on this! At least it seems from @freeform he said that it will only cause harm in terms of development. He has said multiple times that bodyweight stuff like animal walks are great though and also things like sit ups and some push ups, but anything that involves contractive force like deadlift, squats and bench press is no bueno since it will create problems for the internal mechanics. Here's the quote from first page of this thread: I do find it strange that it has such a potent effect on my mind when I've finished such a workout. I do not get the same rush from doing cardio or bodyweight, it is only with heavy weights and things like deadlifts, squats and bench press I get that feeling. It is like a rush of warmth through the body and can become quite euphoric, I imagine it is some androgenic hormonal response, but I have no idea.

You mean weight training or? I really liked the feeling I got after doing squats and deadlifts, but I learned from freeform that it builds the body in the completely opposite direction of what is needed for neigong and neidan, so had to let it go. Now I do running and stretching instead.

It's nearly New Years, and with New Years I usually reflect how I spent my year. The darkness of December also makes me naturally more contemplative and pensive. Brings out some darkness before the light shines brightly again in nature. Last night I was reminded of three years ago where I came across a picture of a book online entitled Vasistha's Yoga by Swami Venkatesananda. I read the first chapter and remember how the very first chapter on dispassion moved me very powerfully. I would like to discuss with anyone interested the importance (or lack thereof) of renunciation and seeing things for what they are. I believe in various traditions - the view of reality is different. For instance in Buddhism's "lower" or foundational vehicles like Theravada one is taught to see non-self and suffering in the five clinging categories with an emphasis on renunciation and dispassion. In the Mahayana vehicle, one is not only taught non-self but also about the nature of the great One Mind outside the five skandhas which is what, arguably, the prajnaparamita sutras are all pointing to as I see it. In Master Nan Huai Chin's words: "When the Hīnayāna speaks of no self, it is in reference to the manifest forms of presently existing life; the intent is to alert people to transcend this level, and attain Nirvāṇa. But when this flowed into the world of learning, especially when it was disseminated in the West, some people thought that the Buddhist idea of no self was nihilism and that it denied the soul, and they maintained that Buddhism is atheistic. This is really a joke."- Nan Huaijin. Working Toward Enlightenment: The Cultivation of Practice. pg.139 In the Vajrayana path and especially Dzogchen, the view is the most important - an emphasis on Mind alone and clear-seeing is paramount for the practice. In the prelimaries however, even in Vajrayana, the faults of samsara are explained and emphasised and I'd argue even to this day renunciation is still an important and vital part of the tradition with an emphasis on retreat and renunciation for genuine progress. One must not forget one of the crowning jewel's of the Tibetan tradition is the example set by the practictioner Milarepa himself - enlightenment in one lifetime. On towards the text itself, the Vasistha's Yoga, a text presented by Valmiki, the poet-sage - who is also said to have written the epic Ramayana; it is about the prince Rama's conversation with the sage Vasistha. In the first chapter entitled Dispassion, the prince is deeply moved and appears depressed and suffering in having realised the impermanence of the samsaric joys that are based on the body-mind's sense-impressions that are ultimately not-self, suffering and impermanent. In the first chapter here below, Rama explains in details what this realization entailed for him: That was super long, so apologies if you did not wish to read it all. I really enjoy this chapter and reflecting on prince Rama's words here. As this is the daobums, what do you think of his view of the world? True, false, exagerrated, neither? Is it important to be reminded of such a view to cultivate properly on the Way? Is the suffering one experiences in this world, or that which is part of the first noble truth, necessary for genuine spiritual progress to occur? Do we need to witness suffering in ourselves and in others to see the world for what it really is? Is dispassion the first step to genuine progress in these arts? Or is it something else? Perhaps curiosity or simply a joy of explorating what else there is? Let's discuss! And to everyone, I wish you a great New Years!

An excerpt from Damo's White Moon on the Mountain Peak might help you here. It's a great book. Hope that helps!

Face rubs from a cat, cozy snuggles from a mouse, sensation is a trap.