anshino23

one too many, bygones be bygones, love and refine.

Probably not that important at first either. It's not required to replenish prenatal jing to recover health in most cases is it? Just replenishing post-natal Jing would be enough to support kidneys and the whole system, yes?

Wow, yeah, makes sense. I think Wang Liping was taught since 8 years old by several masters, at least according to the biography. Probably many masters did the same to ensure certain lines stayed intact. What does restoring prenatal jing entail exactly from an alchemical point of view? Is it at the point where Jade Fluid is turned in the orbit or at a later stage? Don't know how much fun it was to be honest. At least I had such a big bite of it that what remains is a lot of world weariness from that. It was impermanent and ultimately all of it let to suffering. Paying the price. Karma. First Noble Truth.... But I guess part of the spiritual path or the essential part of is really knowing what to do and what not do. And that this gets more and more refined at higher levels. Though, maybe how I feel just reflects my kidney issues. Fun!

Would you say the line Damo's lineage follow is specifically geared for the spiritual process similar to your own master's?

Haha, that's a fair point. But I meant more in terms of how to setup your daily life using modern tools that could help cultivation. For instance, there's a lot of research lately showing that low-level light therapy (LLLT) and infrared (~670nm and ~800nm) is incredibly helpful for healing, the nervous system, etc. And no doubt getting enough sun exposure would be far more beneficial than that, and living in a temple or near one would be amazing, but for householders that live in the wrong environment for their energetic make-up, the advice of a genuine Daoist master in utilising modern tools to sort of "offset" those aspects would be amazing. But maybe they'd offset them with some Fu talisman rather than light therapy. I wouldn't know

Wonderful, wonderful! Thank you for this illuminating reply. Seems like the ideal is to find such a master.

A bit funny really because everyone that trains within the school appears to know it as a common knowledge thing I'll refrain from answering it as well out of respect obviously, but I do find it odd that it is not freely mentioned. Or perhaps you are referring to a very specific line that can be traced back to the lineage holders and is not publicly known even by the open-door students (and only known by inner-door)?

Very interesting. Thank you everyone for providing your input and thoughts on the matter. When you speak of Jing travelling through here, it appears to be functioning as a substance. I assume this is all post-natal Jing you are talking about in such a case? The last part you mention with kidney jing being weak where bones get weak (osteoporosis, teeth falling out) and the back hurting, brain doesn't get nourished etc., this seems to me very associated with overall hormonal and endocrine health from a Western perspective. For instance in both men and women, testosterone and estrogen are associated with all the things you just mentioned there as being related to kidney jing, and as they decline either in men and women, there is higher risk of all the above-mentioned "(bones get weak (osteoporosis, teeth falling out etc), back (spine) hurts, the brain doesn't get nourished and you develop mental fog, fuzzy thinking, dementia, Alzheimer's etc)" The relationship to horse stance is similar to the relationship to the findings in Western science that found that doing squats and deadlifts actively improves hormonal health such as testosterone and also reduces risk of osteoporosis. We also know that resistance training reduces risk of dementia and improves cognitive functioning quite significantly in the elderly. See here. I would imagine horse stance would do something similar by stressing the same muscle groups involved. So I believe that's how the reasoning came to be That and all the Shaolin monks doing it as part of their foundation training and Drew (voidisyinyang) talking ad nauseum about it. Also, I'm curious. When is Jing the highest? I've heard differing views on this. For instance, some say that Jing is the highest in babies. But others say that for alchemical purposes, actually Jing is the highest at 16 years of age, and you can't begin proper alchemical training until that age. Well, what happens around 16 of age? From western medical point of view, the hormonal system is at its peak functioning. So it seems there's some degree of relationship between the hormonal systems efficiency and Jing. What happens according to the alchemical view that is different from when one was a baby with one's Jing that allows one to begin the training proper? This sounds like DNA and epigenetics - "environmental" (inner and outer) factors impacting the fetus in the womb during development (9 months spent in the womb). Fascinating stuff. Thank you for the discussion

Also paging @freeform because I've been tormenting him with my questions on this topic through PM. Might help others around here wondering the same if he'll share his thoughts from his training on this elusive topic!

Anyone know if they're comparable or can be directly related in some way? It seems in Dzogchen there's four levels of rigpa (from rigpawiki below). Ground rigpa: "(Tib. གཞིའི་རིག་པ་, shyi rigpa, Wyl. gzhi'i rig pa) acts as the basis for all of samsara and nirvana, and is identical to the subtle clear light. This is the pristine awareness one experiences at the time of death, but not during the ordinary waking state. It is from this awareness that the foundation consciousness arises." Essential rigpa: "The fundamental innate mind of clear light is considered to be the nature of mind, or the ultimate root of consciousness. In the same way that a sesame seed is entirely permeated by sesame oil, as soon as there is clear and aware consciousness, it is said to be permeated by the clear light rigpa. This aspect of rigpa, this in-dwelling clear light is what is called essential rigpa (Tib. ངོ་བོའི་རིག་པ་ , Wyl. ngo bo'i rig pa).[1] Effulgent rigpa: "The Dzogchen teachings are very precise in talking about rigpa and categorizing it with many subtle distinctions. So a distinction is made between the ground of being and the appearances of that ground, and effulgent rigpa (Tib. རྩལ་གྱི་རིག་པ་ , tsal gyi rigpa, Wyl. rtsal gyi rig pa) is rigpa that is present in the appearances arising from the ground. It’s an aspect of rigpa which is to be identified and experienced only when coarse levels of mind and conceptual thoughts are active. At that point the experience of the fundamental innate mind of clear light has ‘ceased’―‘ceased’ in the sense that it is no longer a direct object of your experience. However, there is still a definite quality of clarity and awareness that permeates the coarser states of consciousness. This type of clear light experienced as a quality that permeates these states is the effulgent rigpa. All-embracing rigpa: rigpa of all-embracing spontaneous presence (Tib. ལྷུན་གྲུབ་སྦུབས་ཀྱི་རིག་པ་, Wyl. lhun grub sbubs kyi rig pa) Do these have equivalents in Daoism, and if so, what would they be? Thanks a lot!

Wonderful, thank you for answering. Yes, I am really just curious about if the highest Daoist teachings have a similar concept to rigpa and in that case, what that would be. I wasn't specifically referring to levels by the post, it was just what I could find on rigpawiki as definition for rigpa. It would be great to hear from Taomeow if she's trained in both traditions

Done. I honestly don't understand how it's so hard to just read and learn, rather than continuously think you have to barge in on multiple threads with the same driveling nonsense every single time. It's inappropriate, disrespectful to the OP and ultimately shows a complete lack of awareness, etiquette and common courtesy. For someone who speaks so highly of awareness and enlightenment and what-else-have-you, they sure don't seem to be very aware...

Actually, yes. You're correct. It is actually all taught within the Daoist traditions. Qi by itself has many different meanings, depending on the context within it is used. There is Qi of Chinese medicine - where one looks at the action and function of a channel system or an organ. For instance the Qi of the heart is the functional activity of the Heart system - if it has healthy heart Qi, it means it is working properly. So in Chinese medicine you are looking at Qi from the perspective of how well the respective organ systems or channels are performing their functioning. There is Qi of the channels. Within classical Daoist thought, Qi is born from Shen. In some traditions they call these channels "Rivers of Light" or "Hall of Lights", "Heavenly Streams" and many other words. Essentially they are describing a stage of spiritual development where one can consciously perceive these energetic channels. It is like an extension of consciousness through the body that can be directly felt and experienced. This is the channels that are worked with within Qi Gong and Nei Gong practice. One way they are worked with is through different exercises that then create physical and mental changes. The same applies in acupuncture on how inserting needles into specific channel points can affect our mental state. Then there's Qi of standing and martial arts which is more to do with the reaction of sinking and changing the physical body. The sinking of the Qi takes several stages. Relaxing the muscles, sinking the mass through the body, filling the lower abdomen, stretching the connective tissues, connecting the soft tissues, etc., etc. The cold, warm, itching, etc. - all these are actually bodily reactions to Qi, not Qi itself as I understand it. For instance in Qi Gong, some lineages detailed these reactions in a general grouping as the "Eight Reactions": shaking, excitement, feeling cold, feeling hot, feeling light, feeling sinking, feeling tight, feeling soft. In Buddhism they have countless descriptions and other groupings., As for physiological manifestations, within genuine Daoist lineages this is a thing. It's not just something that is experienced as a felt experience. There are actual physiological signs that manifest. Like imagine at a certain stage you grow horns or your skull bones shift around, you get five intense shocks of electric energy shoot up your spine and you see a white light in a specific shape manifest in front of you with open eyes. I don't think that's an actual stage, but it's just to give you an idea of the physical nature of these arts when they're taken far enough. These things have a huge amount of of secrecy around them for good reason. Imagine someone gave a kid the ability to change physical reality around them in any way they saw fit. Without having any wisdom, they could create immense havoc, not only to themselves but to others. With great power, comes great responsibility as the old adage goes... The issue in your own case sounds like that you gave up. It seems you have already concluded that it's not real. I mean, I get it. There's a lot of bullshit out there. But that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It just means you didn't find a proper master and you didn't break through. There's a degree of faith in this. When you have experiences that affect the physical body directly that cannot be discounted you realise there's a clear system of development developed by these sages. And it's hardly some primitive science. It looks more like they understood the underlying building blocks of existence and how to mess with them. Hope that helps

Well, another way of looking at it is that consciousness is not your body, but it interacts with your body. Say that your body is like a mobile phone that receives signals and consciousness is a specific signal. When the structure of the organs or the physical functioning of the physical body is in any way perturbed, this messes with the reception of the signal. This manifests as symptoms of all kinds known in both Western and Chinese medicine. It doesn't disprove anything about Qi, as I see it.

After speaking with many different practitioners and thinking about this topic quite a lot, it seems to be quite the conundrum. From what I've learned there are basically two different types of systems. Traditional systems and Shen systems. The first is the traditional Jing -> Qi -> Shen cultivation path. According to the traditions I've looked into it is based around firstly changing the body to make it a fit vehicle for later spiritual work. For instance, one way of looking at this schematic (in my preliminary understanding) would be something like: Conditioning and preparing the physical body, herein both stretching the body, learning how to hang muscles and align the body properly, how to "sink the Qi" and eventually connecting/changing the entire fascia system. Usually takes many years of work just to get this step right to my understanding. This is a state of vibrant physical health already and there won't be coarse physical issues in my understanding. Beginning the stage of jing to Qi, wherein jing is first stilled and consolidated. Usually, in my understanding, the 100 day virgin boy training or also known as the 100 day foundation. Awakening/building the LDT, which becomes an actual physical structure that moves and twists in your lower abdomen and is now an actual physical structure that also holds immense energetic properties. Microcosmic orbit Then movement of yang qi and yin qi and the mixing of fire and water Qi to Shen (leading to "white moon on the mountain peak") Shen stage where the yin-shen is created and erupts from the crown and then needs to learn how to move and behave independently from the body. This is said to take a long time before it is fully matured and is done in retreat and away from society. On the other hand, we have systems that go the completely opposite way. They say forget about the body, forget about physical body transformation, none of that is really most important part. You should directly work on the Shen stage from the beginning, then everything will follow nicely and your body will remain healthy and even transform to stay healthy. They say that the body is completely impermanent so spending time creating physical structures inside it like a physical dantien is not necessary nor helpful for spiritual cultivation, you're really only interested in getting to the Shen stage so you can begin refining your spirit immediately since that is the only thing that lasts and that you can take with you upon death. On top of this, these types of schools also claim that you're basically skipping decades of hard gruelling jing -> qi -> shen work where every aspect of your physical and emotional nature is changed. According to them, you simply get to the last stage immediately and then everything is refined much faster that way. So, my question is basically, are they just deluding themselves? Which of the systems is correct? Are they both correct, and if so, how or why? Thanks

Thank you for sharing this. I've read a lot about this too and came to similar conclusions. There is some research that suggest that between 50-65+ it is wise to lower protein consumption to drive IGF-1 levels lower to lower risk of overall mortality. One study suggested increased mortality rate up to 75% and a 4-fold increased risk of cancer death risk during the following 18 years. Instead, one would then increase protein and fat consumption after 65+ years of age to drive the IGF-1 levels higher and thus avoid sarcopenia, cancer and overall mortality. I suppose one major confounder with these studies is that they're not done in specifically ketogenic or fat-adapted paleo-type diets, but instead simply high protein, high fat and medium carbohydrate, which as you say, would lead to high glucose levels. It is something I am going to be writing my dissertation on this year -- whether GH/IGF-1 has protective or deleterious effects in terms of longevity in an aging population (65+). My preliminary thoughts are that there's a trade-off between performance and longevity. There was a recent study done on metformin, GH and DHEA which showed regeneration of the thymus in 9 individuals (no control group) that was rather interesting as it showed signs of reversed aging based on protective immunological changes, reduced risk for age-related diseases and reduction of mean epigenetic age. What do you think about this conundrum? I would love to hear your thoughts.

No not just that. Freeform mentions another system (Kunlun) and another system besides Xiao Yao Pai I had in mind was actually Stillness Movement which uses a lot of similar vocabulary to describe their process of attainment such as "aligning with higher-level energetics", "connecting with the power of a high-energetic lineage" and "funnelling the energy into the body using non–linear energetic processes" and more stuff like that. So you're not the only system that claims for this way of cultivation. Yes, I never intended to mean it that way. I'm quite calm with this whole thing, I don't want to frustrate or cause any trouble. I am simply trying to learn and help other people that may be wondering about the same things I am. That way one can make an informed decision about which way to direct one's efforts. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. That's like saying ... "Someone with no physics background can work and understand quantum physics immediately, too!" I think you're possibly misunderstanding what I'm trying to say. 1. Someone with zero background in internal training has no foundation build. They do not have a functional LDT, they haven't gone through coarse cleaning of the channels nor made any significant changes to the functioning of their physical and energetic body. When someone like this trains in the system of XYP, I am interested to hear if they achieve the same milestones as someone like yourself who has done (some part) of neigong training of for instance building the LDT which you describe as something physical in your prior posts here on the site some years back. I do not know if you trained with a teacher at all or were simply doing exercises on your own and had your attainments confirmed or whether you were/are simply self-trained. 2. When one has a physical and energetic foundation, ascertaining the effects of higher levels of energy such as Shen should be easier or at least one would have an easier time working through it as one was already moving that direction anyhow. So yes, I don't know why you find it an offensive proposition thinking that someone with a foundation already built reacts differently to paths that work from "above" than someone who is a complete beginner. Did you read freeform's posts about the practitioners he has known practicing Kunlun which talks about drawing energy down from above rather than building from the ground up? You seem to have ignored this part for some reason. I'm not an expert in this, but from what I can hear from houtian practitioners, the signs even up to the highest stages still have physiological changes accompanying them even though they are working with subtler levels of energy. @freeformcan perhaps elaborate a bit more on that. I don't know why you find the proposition preposterous. You agreed that meditation becomes subtler and subtler after the initial "Zifagong-like" process for lack of better description but now you somehow disagree that having already gone through that part of the process -- without a Hu Fa Shens guidance -- accelerates one's progress within that system. One of the main assertions between the two systems (whatever you prefer to call them that doesn't offend your sensibilities) is that the houtian traditions lead to actual physiological changes that can be palpated, felt, seen, observed. Here's parts of that from freeform's post that you seem to have ignored. Perhaps because you disagree that those are signs of attainment? Do you reach the same stage in Xiao Yao Pai practice? Already explained why. No problem Why is it that you are so sure? After all that you have experienced, all that you have witnessed of magical things and experiences (as you recount is common in your lineage) why is it so hard for you to imagine that someone could dissolve their physical body into light, appear and disappear at will or even become a physical immortal if they saw a reason to. The Buddha wrote about them in the Shurangama Sutra. And according to Buddhist belief, there are still several of Buddha's disciples currently dwelling in samadhi deep in the mountains awaiting Maitreya at the end of the Dharma Ending Age. The point isn't physical immortality, it never was. The point is -- as I see it -- that the greatest masters and sages reached such immense heights of attainment that they also changed the structure of the physical body to the point where they had complete control over its elements. To lower the measuring stick just because it does not fit with one's current view is something I don't understand. Someone who speaks about the Dao and its unfathomable depth should at the very least be open to the possibility of it being a reality.

Yes, this is recorded in basically all the cultivation traditions. There's nothing new to that. I'm not quite sure what you are asking?

Xuan answers @Walker who asked this very question in the thread. He replied:

Here's some stuff from the Xiao Yao Pai thread that maybe sheds a bit of light on this if Xuan does not have time to elaborate, @freeform in relation to their practices. Main thread is here.

I think you misunderstood what I meant by possession. From what I've learned from @Jeff the possession that takes place is a sort of bond that happens in the higher chakras. This is like a hub on one's own motherboard which allows the Hu Fa Shen to take control when mutually beneficial. It is similar to what is observed in what Jeff calls a "true Guru bond". I'm not talking about possession in a negative way. Perhaps Jeff can share a few more words on what he meant by it. And maybe the two of you disagree on what happens during initiation, a process he has observed before. Regardless, it is claims and personal experiences of you both. It ultimately comes down to whether one chooses to trust you. There's no way to confirm or deny whether a bond is created if one is not at a level to be able to ascertain what actually happens during initiation. It would be like an alien inserting probes into you on an extremely subtle nano layer of your body, and then you say, "nope, nothing of that sort is happening". I mean, you can't really know. What we can observe is whether the effect is beneficial or not. And according to you and the testimonials, it is beneficial and certainly not harmful so that's good. The way you explained it in the past was better and is how I meant it. Your Hu Fa Shen is cultivating, your masters are cultivating and you are cultivating. The bond the beings make with you and all the other Dao Yu is a mutually beneficial exchange. Everyone cultivates and benefits. That's the way it was explained. Not that the Hu Fa Shens were perfect, nor that the master was perfect, but that everyone is continually refining themselves. Yes, I'm quite aware of all the testimonials, thank you. But there's unfortunately no difference between what is observed and what happens during Zifagong or Shaktipat transmission. I've attended retreats where this exact thing happens, spontaneous movement, visions, all kinds of stuff. Also having the feeling of being guided, at that time, feeling of being guided by the primordially intelligent Shakti energy. Dakinis or higher immortal beings flying in and taking control of a practictioner's vocal cords (something you also describe in one of the testimonials in the long Xiao Yao Pai thread) and singing a beautiful tune through an unknown language. Problem is that most of those experiences were temporary and didn't lead to lasting change, similar to what freeform is talking about. What would be very nice to hear is to hear from people that have practiced at least a year or longer and what changes they have observed. You come from a Houtian background yourself so your results can't really be applied the same way I don't think. I've spoken with some practitioners that have practiced for more than 10-15 years beforehand, and have been practicing Xiao Yao Pai for at least 2 years, and they say they are not even sure that they have a Hu Fa Shen or that they are being guided. They say it is so subtle. That it was very noticeable just after initiation, but then gradually it disappeared. My point being that maybe someone needs to be quite refined and advanced beforehand, to really notice and observe what is going on, and perhaps even to significantly progress through the Path. But perhaps you say it is different in XYP. It is like @freeform mentions, the one's he saw that were actually successful in the Shen approach were those that came with a long background of Houtian. If I'm not mistaken you also had before you started houtian a background in martial arts for many, many years. That by itself helps prepare the body for houtian work. It was only after your houtian work where you managed to build the LDT (which is something you now teach to beginners through immediate reverse breathing, squeezing of the perineum and more), that you were initiated into Xiao Yao Pai and began to benefit from that way of cultivation in my understanding. Please correct me if I'm wrong though

Xiao Yao Pai (XYP) mostly but also Stillness Movement are both based on this principle. Stillness Movement use physical practices in my understanding as a qigong form that Lomax calls neigong that opens the chakras and uses non-linear movement patterns that draw a lot of light into the body and with remote transmission one's LDT is "lighted on fire" and then one soon comes in contact with what they call "higher levels" and "high energies" which I believe refers to Shen stuff in Daoist terminology. XYP uses the contact of what they call a Fu Fa Shen who is allegedly an immortal Xian who binds to your higher chakras (basically possesses you in a mutually beneficial contract - like a Guru bond) and then you -- through their practices -- absorb primordial Qi in through your Baihui which is transduced/filtered down through the immortal Fu Fa Shen. The immortal Fu Fa Shen also allegedly guides you in daily matters, takes control of your body for the exact needs you have for your cultivation, takes control of your breathing when it's needed for neigong purposes, etc. According to them it's an extremely efficacious and fast system that jumps over the entire houtian pathway of transforming the body (the hard way, with celibacy, retreats etc.) but instead you just absorb Shen directly which is then transformed and used by the body to open its channels, build the LDT and then eventually even an immortal spirit comes and connects the Du and Ren meridians for you. Supposedly it was used only by the Huang Di and was hidden until the 1970s. They also say that Tai Shang Lao Jun watches over the initiation process and all the immortals.

Is the consciousness only stuff the same as the light crowd with dives, etc. that you're referring to? One of the things that's weird about me is how non-linear that stuff is. You have no markers to know you've actually attained a state. You have the level system that Jeff uses, but I'm not very comfortable with it, since it doesn't really signify your actual attainment, but more your "frequency" range as he calls it and not your clarity. IMHO, clarity is most important, because without it, it doesn't matter what level you are, you're pretty much just as ignorant as before. Would be interesting to hear your thoughts.

I guess it depends on what you mean by enlightenment Can you share some light on what you mean when you say enlightenment? Do you think Sri Ramana Maharshi could have changed his body at the causal level if he wanted to? Or do you think it's possible he was just in a samadhi type state (of which there are many different in my understanding)? In the Diamond Sutra for instance the Buddha talks about five different types of eyes. The Daoists talk about 5 different types of immortality.

Thank you for the replies everyone. Very interesting food for thought. Does 1st jhana then mean the attainment of the yin or yang shen the subtle immortal body? Does 1st jhana mean the same as being a heavenly Immortal? Some of the systems I've read about claim to immediately create your actual yin-shen during initiation. They describe the flowers falling (one of the last steps described in Taoist Yoga by Charles L'uk for instance) and the amorphous baby-Shen beginning to take form above your head as it exits your crown. You then have access to the yin-shen immediately and it's wrapped in the golden cocoon of its lineage so not subject to harm from demons or negative influences allowing it to safely grow. Then, according to them, the 3 Hun and 7 Po souls are merged through Zuowang until it becomes the immortal densified yang shen that can be inhabited upon death and before. They say that houtian systems are based on throwing a ball into the air (jing->qi->shen), that is, working against gravity, instead of just absorbing primordial Qi through the Baihui and going the shen->qi->jing way. Meaning that they say that since you absorb primordial Qi through your Baihui, there's no use for celibacy or all the stringent body-training approaches (prolonged retreats, developing the body, etc.) since the Shen will simply deconvert into Qi and then into jing to support the body. Meanwhile you reach immortality manyfold faster since you work directly on "soul" refinement and even if you die before you reach the complete yang shen level, you can simply continue in the higher realms since you already have the yin-shen formed. Those are the claims at least.