anshino23

Then find a lineage where the signs are physical manifestations that cannot be faked

Said another way... if you're not entering a state where the energy starts to course its way through and "replaces" the physical blueprint with a subtle blueprint - the yang qi rising and burning through all the energetic blockages - then you are not progressing! Even if it is immense sweating, itching, burning, heat, cold, these are all signs of progress! If you are sitting or standing there in dullness and not having any transformation - that's a huge mistake. Unfortunately so many fall into this trap... I imagine that's why people think meditation and qigong is so easy "You just wave your hands around" or "You just sit? I do that on my vacation...Seems pretty easy" Ha ha... Right.

Makes great sense. Thanks

Sounds like the issue is that they do not enter a genuine Yin state and instead enter into so-called "dead-tree Zen" which leads to no transformation. If they did generate a Yin state to a high enough degree, I would imagine that Yang should rise? Extreme Yin leading to extreme Yang.

Doing authentic neigong training with an active DT and having Qi mobilise inside your body, literally changing your physical body is not easy No one that has gone or is going through authentic training would call it easy. Even the Buddha in the Suttas said that the physical transformation process was incredibly painful. So to even suggest that it's "so easy" is laughable to the highest degree. Maybe if you mean just waving your hands around in front of your body while breathing deeply and then think that is the neigong and qigong being taught then yes, that's easy and great for relaxation But that's not what Damo is teaching. Damo teaches an authentic method that follows the principles of the YJJ and XSJ. He has a good video that helps explain it and what it involves...

Said no one that has done the training... like ever.

This is the Dao Bums... We're always interested in anecdotes and stories

Perfectly fine. Not knowing is a great place to be - even though it can be scary it has huge potential

If you're still interested in Theravada, I don't think you can go wrong with Adam Mizner. You can sign up for free on his discovermind.com website and listen to the interview and read his free ebook to see if it's anything you'd be interested in. There's also an interview on YouTube that's pretty great. The one on discoverMind is about the course and teachings themselves.

So true.

Exactly

@freeform You're right of course, but what surprises me again and again is that even those very dedicated and even those with high titles like calling themselves Agami's, Arhat's or Upaka's just reach a point where they're like... Alright I spent the last twenty years (or 40+) of my life dedicated to near-full time practice. This is it! I've reached it. And all they have to show for it (which to be fair, compared to the "normal" (unhealthy!) human being is pretty incredible) are things like super mind-stability, sharpness of mind, overall calmness, reduced tendency for anxiety (depression a bit more gnarly and insidious in most cases) and general sense of joy/vibrance during practice. But many of these never experience a lick of the potential of Qi energy - many of them do not even believe it exists. I've especially noticed this tendency in Buddhist (especially Theravadan, and traditions that use Mahasi-noting), Ch'an/Zen groups and then the whole "non-denominational" non-dual group. When I then saw these types of practictioners and compared them to say people very dedicated to sports and health optimization, I didn't see much of a difference. In fact in some cases I saw that the sport practictioners were generally happier and healthier - even though they hadn't seen through "the nature of self" and "the illusory reality of all compounded things" that the aforementioned then keep talking about as if it's the be-it-end-all cognitive realization of the Path. Then of course we have those that do end up feeling energy and working with it and thinking they've reached the full stages of kundalini awakening that then go out and claim all sorts of things. But I'm not even sure which group is worse - arguably, you could say the latter group is worse because they're mostly deluded, ungroudned and are usually very involved in guru-worship type sanghas, but at the same time you could say that the former group ends up making meditation seem pretty limited in its scope. Excuse my rambling, but I'm sure you get what I mean.

Moving the goal-post is such a standard of the time we're currently inhabitating. The instant everything culture. Instant mastery. Instant rich. Instant pleasure. When people actually realize as their imaginary castles are broken down by facing the harsh reality of how much work it takes to achieve anything substantial, they'll be humbled, maybe even scared of what it means for them. I'd personally rather have the truth than half-truth, I'd rather know what something actually takes to achieve than delude myself. But unfortunately many people seem quite content thinking "this is all there's to it". Oh well. It is what it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I've mentioned this before, but the Mahayana understanding of an Arhat compared to a Bodhisattva on the 10 stages towards Buddhahood (through the bhumis) is that an Arhat has subtle clinging to the phenomenal realm of emptiness. With such a subtle attachment to the emptiness side of existence (see: heart sutra) they will return after eons of a "restful peace" ("extinction"/nirvana) to eradicate the subtle traces and are not freed from samsara fully. How it all plays out in reality and whether all these descriptions and stages described by the Mahayanists and Theravadans are just "expedient means" and not the full story... Who knows.

Would be cool

What signs have you had of channels actually opening through those methods? From what I've learned when we talk about channels in Qigong/Neigong and Neidan we don't really work on them as those distinct lines/channels as described in Chinese medicine.

In my understanding, most of authentic Weidan is underground. Some of the Qi-boosting pills and formulas are sold in SEA, but without a foundation created by a functional LDT you're essentially just burning your jing and depleting yourself. You're likely not going to find anyone openly discussing this stuff outside of those traditions as it's dangerous and requires adequate physical preparation for the elixirs to be functional and have the right and proper beneficial effects.

There's a famous passage in the Bible related to this that may be good for contemplation. …He replied, “The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and he will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken away from him. This is why I speak to them in parables: ‘Though seeing, they do not see; though hearing, they do not hear or understand.’…

From a favorite author of mine. You may find it a helpful perspective. I know I did. -- The subject of money and what has monetary value deserves special attention. The possession and the lack of money create today the thousand and one conditions through which the ways of destiny lead. Independence, servitude, fatigue, checks on development, choice of associates, power, opportunity, duty, most of the innumerable predetermined aspects of life in the world, are related to money. Everybody needs money. It is proper that everybody should have some. Indeed one of the tests of a good government is that all people under it should have the opportunity to earn enough for food, clothes and shelter. Beyond these needs some wants are justifiable according to the position a man holds in the world. If one has no wife or children, less is needed. But the thoughts of man go beyond and demand not only what would be sufficient for their needs and reasonable wants. They want money for luxury and display, for power over others, and some want money for money’s sake. However much they may have, they still want more. Often money, after it has been acquired, has little value. It will not buy health, honor, self-respect; it cannot buy love nor life; nor independence, ease or knowledge. True independence is what money should help to bring, and little money is enough for that. Though independence varies with one’s position and work in the world, little money is needed to establish it. Cares, troubles and intrigues surround those who desire more than enough. Money does not enlarge the range of independence. Happiness within and assurance without is what all men want, but life never gives them. The nearest approach is independence, however modest it be. Money is one of the smallest requirements. The less one needs and the less he wants from the money god, the more independent that one is. The money god is a powerful earth spirit, created, kept alive and given his power, like other gods, by the worship of doer portions in human bodies. Under this great earth god are little money gods, special deities for each of the worshippers. Each little money god, in the heart and on the hearth, is nourished by the worshipper, and stands for the great god. The individual gods pass the worship on to the composite great god. This one, in turn, through the hierarchy, aids his worshippers in obtaining money and avoiding losses, in helping them into successful enterprises and lucrative positions, or in keeping them out of financial disasters. But this god cannot give health, comfort or esteem; nor love, cheer or hope; nor can it give protection in the end, when destiny cannot be held back. Often a worshipper having obtained the money worships other gods and uses the money to gratify other desires which his wealth permits. The money god is tolerant while he holds the first place in the heart, but if the new worship, such as that of voluptuousness, drunkenness, ambition interferes, he is a jealous god and revenges himself not only by the loss of money, but by the loss of the things that the money had bought. He who is born in poverty, who feels at home in poverty and makes no effort to overcome his poverty, is a feeble, indolent and ignorant person, who has done little in the past and so has little in the present. He will be driven by hunger and want or be brought by love of those dependent upon him to work, as the only escape from the dull treadmill of poverty. He who is born in poverty with ideals, talents or high ambitions, may be one who has ignored physical conditions and spent his energies in dreaming and in castle building. He who suddenly suffers reversals of fortune may be one who in the past has deprived others of their property, or who has neglected to protect his own. The present experience is a lesson necessary to make him feel the physical want and suffering which loss of prosperity brings, and to make him sympathize with others who experience it. Or the loss of fortune may be required by destiny as a check on developing tendencies, or as preparation for other work. The possession of wealth is the result of work or worship in the present or in the past life. Physical labor, intense desire, worship of the money god, and continual thought, are the means by which money is obtained. Upon the predominance of any one factor will depend the amount. The unskilled laborer in field, mine or shop, who uses little thought and does not carefully direct his desire, must work hard and long to earn enough for a scanty existence. With more intense desire and more thought, the laborer becomes skilled and is able to earn more. When money itself—not merely food, clothing and shelter—is the object of desire, thinking provides the means by which it may be obtained. Then wider fields are sought, where money is to be made and greater opportunities are seen and taken advantage of. To obtain vast sums of money a man must have made money the chief object of his life and have sacrificed other interests to the worship of the money god. When he has paid the price in worship, the money god will put him in touch with other men having the same aims, whom he will be able to use in getting the money he craves, or the money god will put him into a position where he can levy directly or indirectly upon a multitude as in the case of tax-eaters, bondholders, army contractors, government builders or franchise owners. Sometimes the money does not come soon, but then it comes in another life in the shape of inheritance, good fortune, gifts, sinecures or pensions, without present work or worship. Yet such things do not happen except for the work and worship of the past. According to the right or wrong use of money will one suffer or enjoy what money brings. When money is the chief object of one’s existence, he is unable to enjoy fully the physical things which its use can provide, and money makes him indifferent to the wrongs he does, deaf to the sorrows of others and careless of his own true needs. Money, again, is the Nemesis which is the close and constant companion of those who pursue it. So one who finds pleasure in the hunt for money continues the hunt until it becomes a mad chase. Frequently the long hours of thought and labor required to amass his riches have ruined his health and he dies a discontented man. Money may open up other sources of misery to the money worshipper. He may use his money in ostentation or vice. He often neglects his children and leaves them to be cared for by others. It may be noticed that insanity and degeneracy are frequent among the idle and luxurious offspring of the rich. In their turn, these degenerate children are the money worshippers of other days. The love of money drew them into a rich family, but money is now a curse. Different from the future of the mere miser or dollar-hunter is that of those who are unscrupulous and dishonest in the acquisition of money. The lot of successful usurers, engrossers of necessaries, sellers of adulterated food, schemers, promoters and floaters of financial bubbles, is in the future that of common thieves or robbers. Persons who individually or as members of privileged classes obtain through force or corruption special privileges to the injury of others, are legalized robbers. These characters, of thieves and oppressors, which they developed, will find their true expression later, when they are externalized. Then without the cover of legality, money, station or influence, they are born as rogues, and complain of the injustice of their lot. The born thief who is hounded from birth and soon comes to grief is the successful thief of a past life who plundered or defrauded others without then suffering the consequences. He is now paying the debts which he then incurred, whether he was a pilfering servant, a pickpocket, a common spoiler, a robber baron, a tax-eater, a food engrosser, a bribe-taker or any other kind of a cheat or fraud; whether his acts were labelled as crime or not, they were dishonest, that was enough. If he has had the character of a thief, that character eventually becomes externalized physically, when he is the “born thief,” who “never had a chance.” He is marked, outlawed, convicted and caged as a rogue. The physical suffering which one may have caused, the poverty which he may have brought to others by outwitting them or by depriving them of their property, must all in turn be suffered by him. One who overvalues the pleasures and indulgences which money can buy, and uses his money to procure these, must be without money at some time, and feel the need of it. The misuse of money brings poverty; the right use of money brings independence and honest wealth. Money properly procured gives physical conditions for comfort, enjoyment and work for self and others. One who is born of honorable and wealthy parents, or who inherits money, has earned it by his thought and actions; there is no accident of wealth or of inheritance by birth.

Do you mean mRNA based vaccines? Those are the new types such as the one's marketed in the US by both Pfizer and Moderna that have never been used or investigated before outside of cancer research. There's a good overview of the different types in this article: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/science/coronavirus-vaccine-tracker.html I agree with you that we can't know the long-term consequences for either type though. With mRNA vaccines I would be concerned with possible immune system or epigenetic effects.

In other words you're in Xian Yao Pai and believe you're drawing directly on pre-heavenly qi and cultivating your Yang immortal shen spirit already (merging all the individuals souls into one unit, strong unit - is exactly what XYP talks about) without going from the bottom-up. I don't have faith in the method, neither do my teachers, but we've spoken about that before.

Thank goodness you did. If you're not partial to Buddhism specifically (its Tantric lines are difficult to find, I hear) I'd highly suggest giving an authentic energy-based system a try for a few years and seeing for yourself what a difference it makes. It's not fun, and it's certainly not easy, but it's definitely something that brings about actual transformation. I'm not sure where you're located but seeing and meeting authentic practictioners in person is really eye-opening and inspiring. They're the opposite of listless passive blobs IME.

Speaking from experience or just believe you can circumvent time-tested paths and come to the same attainment(s)?

Me too. So very grateful... Couldn't agree more In fact it's interesting because when I did some Google-fu on the teacher (before he then deleted everything about him from every site publically available) I found he had posted in many public forums for years describing his experiences with energy work. And that he was just beginning to teach some people and was just going through the kundalini process at that time (according to him). I don't even think he necessarily wanted it to end up like this at first, but then he probably got fascinated with playing with energy and being able to control it. I also know he talked about authentic phenomena before creating the school such as the Amrita, and I do believe he had attained some degree of transformation. One of the weirdest things I saw was a guy going into so intense Zifagong during a retreat where he literally couldn't stop moving for hours where we were all centered around him watching him squirm around on the floor and saying intense sounds, and the teacher using all kinds of mudras and moving his body in snake-like manner while seated in half-lotus on the floor, showing us all how he was entering his subtle body and moving the energy flows. He also of course chased devils out of our bodies using Tantric methods and walked around with a Vajra. So it was very thereatrical the whole thing... Quite perfect when I think back. I later came around and read some of Robert Green's 40 Laws of Power and realized how perfectly he fulfilled every one of them. Some good ones as examples are: Law 17: Keep others in suspended terror: cultivate an air of unpredictability. Humans are creatures of habit with an insatiable need to see familiarity in other people’s actions. Your predictability gives them a sense of control. Turn the tables: Be deliberately unpredictable. Behavior that seems to have no consistency or purpose will keep them off-balance, and they will wear themselves out trying to explain your moves. Taken to an extreme, this strategy can intimidate and terrorize. Law 35: Master the art of timing. Never seem to be in a hurry – hurrying betrays a lack of control over yourself, and over time. Always seem patient, as if you know that everything will come to you eventually. Become a detective of the right moment; sniff out the spirit of the times, the trends that will carry you to power. Learn to stand back when the time is not yet ripe, and to strike fiercely when it has reached fruition. Law 37: Create compelling spectacles. Striking imagery and grand symbolic gestures create the aura of power – everyone responds to them. Stage spectacles for those around you, then full of arresting visuals and radiant symbols that heighten your presence. Dazzled by appearances, no one will notice what you are really doing. Law 27: Play on people’s need to create a cultlike following. People have an overwhelming desire to believe in something. Become the focal point of such desire by offering them a cause, a new faith to follow. Keep your words vague but full of promise; emphasize enthusiasm over rationality and clear thinking. Give your new disciples rituals to perform, ask them to make sacrifices on your behalf. In the absence of organized religion and grand causes, your new belief system will bring you untold power. Law 32: Play to people’s fantasies. The truth is often avoided because it is ugly and unpleasant. Never appeal to truth and reality unless you are prepared for the anger that comes for disenchantment. Life is so harsh and distressing that people who can manufacture romance or conjure up fantasy are like oases in the desert: Everyone flocks to them. There is great power in tapping into the fantasies of the masses. Law 25: Re-create yourself. Do not accept the roles that society foists on you. Re-create yourself by forging a new identity, one that commands attention and never bores the audience. Be the master of your own image rather than letting others define it for you. Incorporate dramatic devices into your public gestures and actions – your power will be enhanced and your character will seem larger than life. Law 30: Make your accomplishments seem effortless. Your actions must seem natural and executed with ease. All the toil and practice that go into them, and also all the clever tricks, must be concealed. When you act, act effortlessly, as if you could do much more. Avoid the temptation of revealing how hard you work – it only raises questions. Teach no one your tricks or they will be used against you.

As I understand it, it's really not about the physical body - it's about shedding it. To shed it, you must rise above it. To rise above it, you must transform it. In the Buddhist tradition I learned from, this is why it's said that if one wants stream-entry, one must put cultivation at the forefront of everything else. Why? Because one must shed this coarse physical body - and along with it, everything ephemeral and material. @dmattwads Bill Bodri actually changed his views dramatically over the years and explains this very well in his new books too. He's all about transforming the body now and using tantric methods to do so. I remember a few years back when I asked him what he recommended he strongly recommended finding a Daoist or Hindu school and doing Qi-cultivation until the physical body has been fully transformed. An excerpt describes this quite well: "As previously explained, the flip side of body cultivation - which refers to consciousness rather than essences - is to say that people are trying to mentally cultivate a higher stage of mental purity or "emptiness". Most all schools talk about pristine consciousness, pristine awareness, emptiness, no-thought and empty mind but this is the flip side to the body attainments. They don't emphasize the body attainments because they don't want people to get attached to form, but spiritual cultivation is a mind-body affair. Both mind and body must be cultivated on the spiritual path; an over-emphasis on mind will cause individuals to neglect inner energy cultivation for years, which is to their disadvantage while an over-emphasis on life-force (qi or prana) can lead to clinging and thus also halt progress. Physical bodies on every plane of existence are composed of essences/substances, and the concomitant (naturally accompanying) consciousness for a body has the same energy nature as that body's substances for that plane. A consciousness or mind needs a physical body vessel to support its existence. If you attain a higher level body vessel then its concomitant purity of consciousness (degree of pristine awareness) will correspond to the greater purity and refinement of that biophysical mechanism. At the level of the perfected samhogakaya, the concomitant empty or unmanifest state of consciousness is considered to be the original nature but this is just a way of speaking rather than the truth. To achieve a more pristine consciousness you therefore need a body composed of purer essences whose energy channels have far less entanglements, knots or blockages since obstructions produce errant energy flows that you rise to random thoughts rather than empty clarity. In short, you need to cultivate both mind and body on the spiritual trail, if you want to attain the higher heavenly realms of being which can be talked about in terms of "Pure Abodes" or the first, second, third and fourth dhyana. In spiritual cultivation we can say you are trying to cultivate a more subtle or purer state of consciousness which is larely free of random, wandering, emandering thoughts. With each stage your mind/consciousness becomes more clear, calm and quiet until it seems perfectly empty, crystal clear and pristinely aware. Only a purer body of cleansed energy channels can allow this to come about. Therefore instead of saying you are trying to cultivate a higher consicousness we can also say that you are trying to cultivate a purer body whose energy and channels support a higher level of purity of consciousness. To go up the spiritual latter, devas themselves need to cultivate yet higher stages. These correspond to more subtle spiritual bodies made of more refined essenes. This is the true spirtual path - you can talk about it in terms of bodies (essences or substances, spheres of manifestation or planes of being) or consciousness. This is one of the purposes of religious spiritual practice but few people seem to understand this. These facts explain why the Vajrayana school of Buddhism calls the deva body (subtle body) the impure illusory body, namely a body made of impure Qi. Once the Qi of this body becomes purified a deva can then, at will, generate a higher purified illusory body out of this lower shell of our physical nature... And on it goes. [...] Everytime you achieve a new body you break away from or "extinquish" or leave behind the old body, which Buddhism calls "sheath", "aggregate" or "skandha". The previous body still exists as long as you live, but you then live centered in the higher body and identify with it while retaining the existence of each lower body (as an appendage) until its karma is exhausted. The higher your spiritual body, the higher the plane of existence (and spiritual realms) you can reach. Advanced spiritual bodies can freely travel the spiritual realms, and have various powers of mastery over the energies of the lower realms they transcend. This is why various masters, gurus, prophets, saints and sages - depending on how many body they have achieved - are known to have miraculous powers that work on various levels."