Eric Woon
The Dao Bums-
Content count
78 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Everything posted by Eric Woon
-
In astronomy, big bang is explained as the rapid expansion of matter from a state of extremely high density and temperature which according to current cosmological theories marked the origin of the universe. In simple word, big bang is an accepted theory. Assumed Wuwei is a theory. How was it explained? Sadly, Laozi (BC 601 - unknown) wrote it, but did not leave an explanation. Who else could explain it? Was he, Zhuangzi? Zhuangzi (BC 369-BC 286) was born 230 years late. It is ridiculous, and beyond all common senses to accept his explanation for Wuwei. What about Confucius (BC 551-BC 479)? Historical records showed that as a young man, Confucius met Laozi. Did Laozi explain or better still, teach him everything about DaoDeJing? Yes, most likely. If this hypothesis holds water, how did Confucius explain Wuwei? The Doctrine of Wuwei* as defined by Confucius: He is pleasantly joyful in spirit, disinclined to fame or wealth, does not bother to think about general issues that the common folks are seeking for some form of an action or bemused with, and hence, least likely to take them up as a political affair**. Meanwhile, with a heart of steel he steadfastly keeps an indifferent attitude towards these commonplace pursuits. If something aroused his interest, he quickly invites capable and virtuous individuals to carefully study the issue, breaking it down to its finest details and determine with clarity, the reasonable development or in-thing that his country or people should do in order to strive towards a better future, be it discarding the old ways of life and quickly establishing in its place, a new order of things or reform, or new set of rules for the good and advancement of society. Remark*: Source of the definition for The Doctrine of Wuwei*** is obtained from the I Ching (or Yi Jing) of the Zhou Dynasty, also known as Zhou Yi. In the English language, it is known as The Classic of Changes or Book of Changes, which is an ancient Chinese divination text reference, and is one of the oldest of the Chinese classics. Remark**: He is still fully in-charge of national politics and should not be slow on the uptake of an issue as a piece of actionable political affair. As he is running a huge public organization, there may be a lot of things that he needs to do with urgency. However, in the execution of his duties, first and foremost, he must make wise decisions, then differentiate which are the trivial matters that should not be dealt with, and what are the compulsory action plans that must be executed immediately. Note***: In Dao De Jing, the original phrase is易无思也,无为也,寂然不动,感而遂通天下之故 (Yì wú sī yě, wúwéi yě, jìrán bù dòng, gǎn ér suì tōng tiānxià zhī gù). This were the exact words in which Confucius defined Wuwei. Definition: The concept Governance by Wuwei**** shall be translated as: hold fast to The Doctrine of Wuwei, and selflessly devoted to the implementation of government policies related to The Doctrine of Virtuous Governance. Most important of all, never ever rely on the use of threats to force the people into submission through fear. Note ****: In Dao De Jing, the original phrase is无为而治 (Wúwéi ér zhì).
-
Chapter 4: 谷神不死是谓玄牝。 These are the opening eight words in this chapter. Interestingly, it seems no one suspected the first word 谷, actually is an abbreviation for a Chinese proverb, 虚怀若谷 (虚:谦虚;谷:山谷。胸怀象山谷一样深广。形容十分谦虚,能容纳别人的意见), which means humble, open-minded and receptive. If this is what it should be, then the meaning for this sentence looks like this. In humility, the open-minded and receptive God incessantly nourishes the livelihood of all forms of life and He does not drop this role. Let’s call Him ‘Xuanpin'[1]. [1] Let’s keep it as Xuanpin (玄牝; pinyin: xuán pìn), instead of translating it as Mysterious Vagina where: 玄 for Mysterious and 牝 for Vagina.
-
This is the link for 大 http://www.zdic.net/z/17/js/5927.htm This is the link for 大方 http://www.zdic.net/c/7/23/54713.htm
-
Please allow me to serve you another boomerang. This is chapter 41. There are 10 characters 大。According to the Chinese Han dictionary, there are three ways to pronounce it, da, dai, tai. May I ask which is the correct one to apply in this chapter? The actual pronunciation for this character since the Xia dynasty to Song Dynasty is tai. From the Yuan, Ming and Qing dynasty it is read as da. Since then, the character 太 was used to replace 大. For example, 太阳 sun. 太贵 too expensive. 太美了 very beautiful. Henceforth, if you were to replace the character 大 with 太,you will read all the ten characters in chapter 41 with a totally different meaning. For example, 大方 is not two separate characters, pointing to "big square". Actually it is a two-character phrase which gives us two meaning, generous or expert. Please key in 大方 in www.zdic.net and you will get the answers. Btw, 大方 as in Putonghua is read as da fang. However, in the older Chinese languages such as Cantonese (created around the early Western Han dynasty), it is read as dai fong and Hakka (the oldest Chinese dialect, perhaps since the Xia dynasty or earlier), it is read as tai fong! Btw, the Cantonese and Hakka pronunciations for 大 are dai and tai, respectively.
-
No source. It is purely out of my personal research. This is not going to give it any credibility, right? Btw, I am a researcher in Pre-Qin dynasty Chinese language and history (from 2400B.C. to early Western Han dynasty).
-
The great thing about science is that it learns from its mistakes. But where is the mistake? If you do not know where the mistake come from, how are you going to learn? Classical Chinese (DDJ is 2500 years old) is very difficult to understand, far worse than Shakespeare's English. Wuwei, 无为 though is seen as two Chinese characters, it is not. The second character 为,actually is an abbreviation for the Chinese proverb, 为所欲为。That means, it is a five characters instead. Which means, not whimsical, or abstain from whims and fancies. At chapter 57 and 64, the word 欲 too is an abbreviation for the same Chinese proverb 为所欲为。The two full phrase are: Chapter 57: 我无为而民自化。Therefore, a wise leader always says, “I choose to abide by the principle of wuwei, and by leaving it solely up to the people who on their own free will and through their own interactions shall cultivate their own customs or social norms. Chapter 64:是以圣人欲不欲。 Obviously, a judicious leader loves wuwei, that is, always restrains from wanting to carry out whimsical ideas. The rest of the book, where there is the phrase wuwei, you can re-interpret it as either not whimsical, or abstain from whims and fancies, Happy learning.
-
Does Tripitaka has a section regarding statue/offering/incense?
Eric Woon replied to Try's topic in Buddhist Discussion
No. -
Heart sutra: I don't understand this passage, i.e "...nose exist...hurting...".
Eric Woon replied to dontknwmucboutanythng's topic in Buddhist Discussion
Without eyes, ears, nose, tongue and body, a suryaputra (sentient beings) cannot directly perceive the sensation of sight, hearing, smell, taste and touch. Having lost its five perceptions, it also could no longer directly perceive the full response range of visual, auditory, olfactory, taste and touch sensations. Henceforth, it could not experience or feel the effect of these five senses, directly. Then and there, it should stop trying to understand what it no longer can perceive and for that matter, whatever that has to do with the perceptions of the mundane world. After all, these worldly affairs come and go, and are infinitely boundless. And for that matter, all things that have to do with the worldly affairs are boundless unlimited and shall vanish in no time. A suryaputra must withdraw completely and stay clear of the worldly affairs. Then only a suryaputra can stop all forms of sufferings or misery and free itself from discernment of its current plight. This is the highest form of perfect wisdom on how a suryaputra can extricate itself from all sufferings and not worry about its hapless situation anymore. This is a direct interpretation of Tang Tripitaka words, [無眼耳鼻舌身,意無色聲香味觸,法無眼界乃至無意識界,無無明亦無無明盡,乃至無老死亦無老死盡,無苦集滅]: Here is my translation into modern Chinese. 因为没有了眼睛、耳朵、鼻子、舌头和肌肤,所以众生无法直接【[1]】意识到视觉、听觉、嗅觉、味觉和触觉,也导致它们无法再直接感受和处理一切视觉、听觉、嗅觉、味觉和触觉所及的范围。那么,它们没必要再去了解不懂的事情,因为这些事情是再怎说也说不尽的。这些甚至不会历时长久也不会终止的事情,更是再怎说都说不尽的。于是众生没必要为这样的情况而感到苦恼,进而才能成功消灭所有的苦厄境况。 [1] 只是失去了直接的感应能力。但是,每一个舍利子依然能够保留着第六感,即处理感知的能力。在此,著作就点到为止。 -
[大方]:见识广博,有专长的人。 You cannot split up the first two characters. The pair forms a typical structured phrase or 词. In this context, it means knowledgeable or is talented. However, in the modern context, it is mostly use as a two-character phrase that describes a person who is magnanimous.
-
[UC13a]There is something that is too fine and thus, cannot be seen by our eyes is called '夷' (pronounced as yí) or microscopic. [UC13b]There is something that is too soft and thus, cannot be heard by our ears is called '希' (pronounced as xī) or faint. [UC13c]There is something that cannot be scooped with our palms is called '微' (pronounced as wēi) or fine. [UC13d]Though we cannot pursue to find out what this thing is, these three descriptions elucidate the same thing, or in simple word, it is the same and the only one object. Remark: Laozi used these three words to describe wave which is minutely invisible even under the most powerful microscope today. Light is short wave-length, while sound is long wave-length. Light and sound are finitely weightless, without mass. Wave is the only common thing among light, sound and mass.
- 3 replies
-
- 3
-
- case study
- mastery
-
(and 3 more)
Tagged with:
-
Chapter 14: 视之不见名曰夷。听之不闻名曰希。搏之不得名曰微。此三者不可致诘,故混而为一。其上不曒,其下不昧,绳绳不可名,复归於无物。是谓无状之状,无物之象,是谓惚恍。迎之不见其首,随之不见其後。执古之道以御今之有。能知古始,是谓道纪。 Chapter sub-title: Mastery in true leadership [LP18a]From the very beginning, if I were to speculate what is in the mind of a leader (迎之) and then try to figure out what is the origin or motive of his action (其首), I could hardly ascertain the tasks that he wants to perform (不见). [LP18b]Later having followed his instructions and implemented his plan of action (随之), yet, I could not see (不见) its desirable outcome or consequences (其後). [LP19]Few people understood the theory of leadership (执古之道) and are able to apply these principles assiduously (以御) to current situations (今) and subsequently, develop them into model case studies on true leadership (之有). [LP20]Therefore, he who had learned the numerous case histories of our forefathers who had demonstrated mastery in the application of the theory of genuine leadership (能知古始), he can teach the others how to execute a plan of action, project, program or policy in accordance with the principles of true leadership (道纪). Note: The struck out words describe the elementary substance of the universe. I am not going to discuss this. It is quite misleading for me to underline and insert the Chinese texts that it should be relevant to. The better way is to read the Chinese translation. See below. 学说3:不怀疑上司的督导能力 [LP18a]从一开始就去捉摸一名领导的心意并投身于其所要执行的事情,却又看不见他所要执行的事情从何做起。[LP18b]按照他的计划去执行之后,却又不知道其后果如何。 [LP19]能掌握领导原理而且还将它用于现在有关的案例来分析的人士不多。[LP20]既然他力能所及【[1]】地学习以前领导的案卷*4是怎样周而复始【[2]】,于公于私,于情于理【[3]】都得实事求是【[4]】地告诉他人这些领导纪律。 [1] 力:体力,能力;及:达到。在自己力量的限度内所能做到的。 [2] 周:环绕一圈;复:又,再。转了一圈又一圈,不断循环。 [3] 不管是在公事的方面还是在私人的方面,不管是从感情方面还是从理智方面。 [4] 指从实际对象出发,探求事物的内部联系及其发展的规律性,认识事物的本质。通常指按照事物的实际情况办事。
- 3 replies
-
- case study
- mastery
-
(and 3 more)
Tagged with:
-
This is the real difference. Here are three definitions. 1) True Leadership is leading people to get things done for the people. 2) False leadership is managing people to get things done for oneself (himself, cronies, political party, etc. But definitely NOT for the people). 3) Management is managing people to get things done. Do you see the similarity between False leadership and Management? No professor dares to add the last phrase, "for oneself" for that will destroy the entire meaning management where there are more than a million books have been written on management.
-
Sorry. They execute the(ir) order. not the order.
-
Just today, I finally manage to convince the entire management team to adopt my three proposals. One, to adopt a new company philosophy. Two, to implement a Shop Floor Control System which I designed specifically for them. Three, forbids over-time while I continue to load them factory with more job orders. All three are meant for the benefits of the entire company. The entire management team, all happily accepted my three proposals. I have never seen this management finally agreed in unison. Two hours, later, they execute the orders based on my proposals.
-
Let say you are the champion for a productivity program, say how to increase the efficiency of a particular process. The existing people would resist your new ideas. Therefore, you have to start explaining what the new or improve process improve their job efficiency, make it easy for them to perform the task, least prone to mistakes and etc. These are some of the areas where the existing people might find it to their benefits to learn from you a new way of getting things done. Btw, I was a consultant for > 2 decades. Every time, I faced people who reject my new way of getting things. The worse resistance I faced was this. After two hours of explanations, the other party finally said, "I give you my benefit of doubts. But you have to bear the full responsibility should it not work out." I was smiling in my heart when I heard these words. To me, so long he follows my new way of getting things done, the result shall prove to him I am correct.
-
When you run into someone who opposes or does not want to follow your order, it is about time to draw upon the principles of leadership and deploy them diligently. On the other hand, when you run into someone who does not have the will to follow your order, you can also draw upon the principles of leadership and apply them assiduously.
-
Chapter 41: 建德若偷。质真若渝。大方无隅。大器晚成。大音希声。大象无形。 [MP28]In addition to his leadership ability, let’s look at his moral conduct, whether: [MP28a]He is surreptitious in the manifestation of his loving, kind and compassions. That certainly goes against his principle to remain simple and true to his genuine nature of a kind and benevolent person. [MP28b]He possesses extensive knowledgeable, professional and is a subject expert, tolerant and broad minded. [MP28c]He is very capable and comfortable assume heavy responsibilities or high office. This is the reason why his attainment is towards his later years in life. [MP28d]He delivered great merits purely out of his loving-kindness, charitable actions and setting personal fame or glory aside. [MP28e]From the perspective of common folks’ undertakings or delivery of charitable works, his generous virtue does not falls in familiar traits. The above is the translation of the Original Modern Chinese translations below. [MP28]除了领导能力之外,我们也要看清楚他的品德: [MP28a]若是暗中地倡导仁爱的操行,却又像是在隐瞒其真正的品行,也像是违背了自己的质朴和纯真; [MP28b]若是见识广博,有专长而没有狭隘片面的见解; [MP28c]若是有才能,能担负重任,就须要经过长期的磨炼,所以他的成就往往是比较晚的; [MP28d]若是大功德,必须由心生的仁爱,又希有[1]名声; [MP28e]若是以宏大的常理去观看他怎样施仁布德[2],却似乎没有一个固定的形象。 Explanation of each of the individual Chinese word mentioned above. [建]:提出,倡议:建议、建策(出谋献策)。 [德]:德就是仁爱大德,简称“仁爱”。 备注:请回顾第21章。 [建德]:倡导仁爱的操行。 注释:添加宾语“操行”,目的是缩小其含义,只关注仁爱在于操行上的解释而已。 [若]:如,像:年相若、安之若素、旁若无人。 注释:引申为“像是”。 [偷]:偷偷,行动瞒着人,暗中。 [建德若偷]:若是暗中地倡导仁爱的操行,又好像是在隐瞒其真正的品质[3]。 备注:没必要那么死板地推敲字句。 [质]:朴素,单纯:质朴、质直。 [真]:本性,本原:纯真、天真。 [质真]:质朴{和}纯真。 批注:以现代语言,在 “质朴”与“纯真”之间注入连词“和”,表示跟或同。 [渝]: 改变,违背(多指感情或态度),如忠贞不渝。 [若渝]:像似违背了。 [质真若渝]:也像是违背了{自己}的质朴和纯真。 批注:少了宾语。于是,补上人称代词“自己”。 备注:没必要那么死板地推敲字句。 [大方]:见识广博,有专长的人。 注解:不可以将“大方”掰开为“大”和“方”来解释。 [无]:没有,与“有”相对;不。 备注:保留原文“无”,没必要翻译。 [隅]:隅见(片面的见解)。 [无隅]:无片面的见解。 注释:引申为“无尽头”。 [大方无隅]:见识广博,有专长而没有狭隘片面的见解。 备注:没必要那么死板地推敲字句。 [大器]:有才能,能担负重任的人。 注解:不可以将“大器”掰开为“大”和“器”来解释。 [晚成]:则须要经过长期的磨炼,所以他的成就往往是比较晚的。 注解:不可以将“晚成”掰开为“晚”和“成”来解释。 [大器晚成]:有才能,能担负重任的人,则须要经过长期的磨炼,所以他的成就往往是比较晚的。 备注:没必要那么死板地推敲字句。 [大]:大美(大功德,大功业)。 备注:请参照《汉典》“大”字的详细解释。 [音]:《礼记·乐记》凡音之起,由人心生也。声成文,谓之音。 注释:依据上下文,引申为“由心生的仁爱”。 备注:请参照《汉典》“大”字的详细解释。 [大音]:大功德,必须由心生的仁爱。 [希]:少:希少(shǎo )、希罕、希奇、希有、希世。 注释:最佳选择是“希有”,亦作稀有,少有、少见。 [声]:名誉:名声。 [希声]:希有名声。 [大音希声]:大功德,必须由心生的仁爱{也},{又}希有名声。 批注1:注入“也”,表示停顿一下,舒缓语气,后半句将对前半句加以解说。 批注2:添加“又”,表示加重语气、更进一层。 备注:没必要那么死板地推敲字句。 [大象]:常理,伸缩视图。 注释:引申为“以宏大的常理去观看{他怎样施仁布德}”。 批注:少了宾语。依据上下文,补上宾语“他怎样施仁布德”。 注解:依据上一句“大功德,必须由心生的仁爱”,接下来需要观察他怎样施仁布德。 [无]:没有,与“有”相对;不。 [形]:样子:形状、形式、形态、形迹、地形、情形、形象。 [无形]:没有一个固定的形象。 [大象无形]:以宏大的常理去观看他怎样施仁布德,{却似乎}没有一个固定的形象。 批注1:添加连词“却”,表示转折。 批注2:添加“似乎”,表示好像是,而绝对不是完全无形象的。 [1] 亦作稀有,少有、少见。 [2] 指实行仁义,布施恩德,多行善事。 [3] 指人的行为和作风所显示的思想、品性、认识等实质。
-
Let me copy down the entire texts. 谷神不死,谷,养也。人能养神则不死也。神,谓五脏之神也。肝藏魂,肺藏魄,心藏神,肾藏精,脾藏志,五藏尽伤,则五神去矣。是谓玄牝。言不死之有,在于玄牝。玄,天也,于人为鼻。牝,地也,于人为口。天食人以五气,从鼻入藏于心。五气轻微,为精、神、聪、明、音声五性。其鬼曰魂,魂者雄也,主出入于人鼻,与天通,故鼻为玄也。地食人以五味,从口入藏于胃。五味浊辱,为形、骸、骨、肉、血、脉六情。其鬼曰魄,魄者雌也,主出入于人口,与地通,故口为牝也。玄牝之门,是谓天地根。根,元也。言鼻口之门,是乃通天地之元气所从往来也。绵绵若存,鼻口呼噏喘息,当绵绵微妙,若可存,复若无有。用之不勤。用气当宽舒,不当急疾勤劳也。 Yes, this is Heshangggong version of explanation.Heshanggong (Riverside Sage), who is said to have lived during the reign of Emperor Wen of Han (180–157 BC). He is 600+ years younger than Kongzi. About 700 years younger than Lao Zi. Throughout these years, the actual meaning of DDJ which was transmit by word of mouth (from teacher to pupils) might have lost it true meaning. If you were to read carefully, he is describing this chapter in a very narrow sense. That is something that got to do with our human organs. well. What was Heshanggong understanding of DDJ theme. In actual fact, did he know what was Lao Zi's theme when he wrote DDJ. Based on his explanation of this chapter, I suspect Heshanggong does not carry a particular theme in his mind.
-
玄 = "not easy to apprehend". Heaven is too far off-track.
-
enigma? "not easy to apprehend" should be a better word. The reason being I had translated the first half. Really, it is not puzzling, therefore, not enigmatic.
-
Chapter 1: last two sentences are此两者同出而异名,同谓之玄。玄之又玄,众妙之门。 Here is the translation. [UC5]以上这两种心态同样是出于祂一颗好奇之心,而二者仅有名称上的区别。[UC6a]这两种心态同样是叫做玄妙。这两者一样很玄妙,不容易理解。世间众多奇巧的万物和妙趣的事情以及一切深奥玄妙的道理,都是通过这种方式探索而得来的。 [UC5]These two (UC4a and UC4b) seemingly contrasting mentalities originate from the same mind, but merely carry different names. [UC6a]These two different mindsets are quite mysterious, or simply, not easy to apprehend; [UC6b]yet they are the fountains (or doors) from which all kinds of esoteric mysticism emerge and many novel, interesting and sophisticated objects have evolved from His explorative creation process.
-
It is illogical to break down more complex Chinese words into its various singular root words. For example, 晚 is supposed to be made up of 日 (Sun)and 免 (can help it as in 免不了)。晚, as used in 旁晚 means as the sun goes down in the evening, it just can't be help. Or as in 太晚了, it too late to make up for the error or loss, it just can't be help.
-
I am the crazy fellow. I am a perfectionist. I am doing a mission. I am not doing something for money or fame. I cannot let down what Lao Zi actually want to share with the world. The world can be what it wants to be. But I can't. I know what is my mission. China is not a hostile environment. It has its long history (beginning from the Eastern Han Dynasty) where almost every later dynasties were brought down by the rise of rebels, mostly started by some one who misused religion to rope in hundred of thousands of rebel fairly quickly. Two decades ago, the Falungong founder, a Mr. Li tried to use the same trick by borrowing some phrases from the Bible and went to create a huge mass of followers. Be patient. Slow and steady win the race. Of course, the audience are the mainland Chinese for the original Chinese version. The audience for the English version are outside mainland China.
-
It has to be different from all other authors before me. This is because no one before me ever suspected these characters 唯孤, 寡 and 谷 are abbreviation for these proverbs. Thank you for your appreciations.
- 2 replies
-
- 1
-
- selfishness
- coruption
-
(and 3 more)
Tagged with:
-
Chapter 42 (truncated): 道生一。一生二。二生三。三生万物。万物负阴而抱阳,冲气以为和。人之所恶,唯孤、寡、不谷,而王公以为称,故物或损之而益,或益之而损。人之所教,我亦教之,强梁者,不得其死。吾将以为教父。 Chapter sub-title: Selfishness, corruption, Intolerance [MP29a]The three worst behaviors in mankind (人之所恶) are selfishness (唯孤), corruption (寡) and intolerance (不谷). [MP29b]Yet, the rulers and ruling technocrats (王公) openly accept these decadent and self-indulgent behaviors as commendable attributes (以为称). [MP30]Looking forward (故), these ghastly and unpleasant behaviors (物1) can be perceived in two opposing ways (author’s supplementation). [MP30a]One, some people (或1) possibly lessen the impact (损1) of these shameless behaviors (之) and (而) gain much better benefits in return (益1). [MP30b]Two, others (或2) conversely strengthen (益2) all or any one of them (物2) and (而) in the process, compound its destructive power (损2). [MP31a]Anything that I can teach mankind (人之所教), I have already taught them (我亦教之). For example, anyone who is tyrannical, brutal, cruel, vicious, a bully or ruffian (强梁者) who causes cruelty (especially, to fellow mankind) will die a miserable death (不得其死). [MP31b]I (吾) am preaching these warnings (将以为) as teaching lessons (教父) that all men and women must refrain from, totally (author’s supplementation). Notes: 1) Struck out texts discussed about the creation of Heaven and Earth. 2) 唯孤: 唯我独尊 (a Chinese proverb), meaning self-centered. It implies selfishness. (孤and 独, are interchangeable, or can be combined as a phrase 孤独). 3) 寡: 寡廉鲜耻 (a Chinese proverb), meaning shameless, brazenfaced. Among of kinds of shameless acts, corruption is the most brazenly shameful and yet, the most people easily succumb to it. Btw, today’s society does not detest shameless as much as corruption. 4) 不谷: 不虚怀若谷 (a Chinese proverb) meaning not open-minded or have a receptive mind. Intolerance is a simple antonym. 5) 或: some people, certain group of people. 6) This chapter can be split into two chapters. The struck-out texts as a separate subtitle. 7) Notice, the core elements of this chapter are three Chinese proverbs; namely, 唯我独尊, 寡廉鲜耻 and 虚怀若谷. In the past, few people (if not, nobody) ever suspected these characters唯孤, 寡 and 谷 are abbreviation for these proverbs. It might be a surprise to you, Lao Zi discussed about human behaviors which we now classify as a study of the school of humanities (psychology, social science or etc).
- 2 replies
-
- selfishness
- coruption
-
(and 3 more)
Tagged with: