wandelaar

Best intentions, motivations, etc. can go awfully wrong when applied in a way that does not consider the processes at work. And ways that do consider the processes at work, may be directed by immoral motivations. So I think both aspects are relevant.

I can follow most of your post, but I think the last sentence of the above citation goes wrong. It is certainly in accordance with Tao that going against the grain will turn out to be counterproductive, but that doesn't make going against the grain itself into an approach Taoists should follow. The two possible meanings of "in accordance with Tao" (as applied to the world and as applied to the behavior of man) are getting mixed up here.

Well OK. But I am serious. Are there any other books comparing the teachings of Lao tse and Epicurus?

I don't have such a "make or break question?" I am only trying to fill in some gaps in my understanding. Even if everything I learn here on Taoism would turn out to be of no use to me personally, the things I already know about Taoism would still be enough for me to like it.

I like Taoism, Buddhism, Confucianism (to some extent), Epicureanism, Stoicism, old school Skepticism, and analytical philosophy. But in particular on Taoism I have some questions left. It depends on the answers whether I can make use of them in my own life.

You are right. Social responsibility - Taoist or otherwise - is another issue. I could open another topic about that. The position of Taoism on social responsibility.

Highest point: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vaalserberg

I doubt you would be convinced. It rather looks like you are arguing against the very possibility of "going against the grain". If that is so I would like to know whether you also think a non-Taoist way of life is impossible.

From a purely individualistic viewpoint I guess that is a consistent position. But that brings us to the question of social responsibility? The effects of most individual actions on society as a whole are negligible. Thus from a purely individualistic viewpoint it would not be worth the trouble. So how should a Taoist deal with the free rider problem?

So you think the meaning of "going against the grain" is unclear?

So there is no special problem in the relation between the Taoist and society compared to life's problems in general?

As I read all the different comments I am wondering what the topic starter meant by 'flow'. My comment took it to be the psychological term 'flow' introduced by Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi.

That is also how I see it, but still the problem remains what to do when the society you live in is itself largely going against the grain.

Flow is the experience of getting completely absorbed in some activity, be it dancing, reading, playing, painting, or whatever. The sense of you doing something and the notion of the passage of time recede into the background. I think it's a rather common experience and not something especially esoteric or religious. But it's precious nonetheless.

As a Taoist you are supposed to adapt to circumstances like a bending reed. But how about living in a society that is anything but Taoist. Should you then live in a non-Taoist manner in order to follow the Taoist recommendation on adapting to circumstances. Any thoughts on this matter? Personal note: I like Taoism as a philosophy somewhat in the spirit of Alan Watts and Raymond Smullyan.

It works! Thank you.

Hello. I like to receive email notifications of new posts in topics I follow. But until now I only get notifications under the bell-shaped icon and by means of a sound from the browser. As I am a relatively new member I wonder whether the option of email notifications is not available until much later? Or do I have the wrong settings to receive email notifications?

Found this: https://www.thedaobums.com/notifications/options/ Changed some settings. Let's see what happens...

@ silent thunder There actually are objects with only one side, and some wonderful properties as a result. See:

Lao tzu evidently saw a problem in "modern life" even in his own day! See chapter 80. That doesn't prove there is a problem, but at least it proves a Taoist can see a problem here.

What I get out of this discussion thus far is that the Tao manifests itself as soft or hard depending on the circumstances and a Taoist should to. Beyond that there is a sense in which a Taoist should be unequivocally soft and flexible and not hard and rigid, and that is in putting egocentric considerations aside whether or not the situation requires a hard or soft approach.

If it were just that simple!

@ dawei So there is nothing more to say and we can close the forum...

@ Stosh That's just a bunch of fallacies. But if that's your style I leave it at that.

We don't learn people to overeat, become addicted to their mobile phones, or take too little physical exercise. Quite the contrary! Nevertheless it happens against the peoples best intentions. People are not evolutionary prepared to deal with the abundance of possibilities and consumer goods modern society affords. The point is discussed in the book How to Want What You Have by Timothy Miller. It's like taking an animal that evolved to live in a certain environment and putting it in a radically changed environment it's not prepared for to live in. The natural reflexes of the animal will then become inappropriate and accidents will happen. So the problem is not in the current generation being too lazy or anything but in society (and in particular technology) changing more rapidly than our evolving human nature can follow. But already Lao Tzu saw the problem and advised a return to the simple live in a small village.