wandelaar

@ OldDog One can not be solely driven by reason, but as far as establishing the facts is concerned I think that one should at least try to keep ones personal convictions and passions out of it as far as possible. What I mostly see in political discussions is that people are only interested in those facts that seem to bolster their own position. Consequently no real discussion on the basis of a more broad view of the evidence results.

The Tao Te Ching has right and left wing aspects to it. It's against conspicuous consumption, gross inequality and imperialist wars, but it's also against large scale state intervention in order to create a supposedly ideal society. I could imagine a laissez faire right-winger being a Taoist at the same time. On the other hand Trump himself is the complete opposite of a Taoist ruler. But then again there are some Legalist traces in the Tao Te Ching also. So it's much of a mixed bag just as the bible. The Chuang tse on the other hand is a-political. Repeatedly seeing Taoism qualified here as simply socialist without so much as a hint at any other interpretation proves that a somewhat more objective equilibrium hasn't been found here yet. But who knows what the future will bring... (By the way I consider myself left wing, but I try to keep that conviction separate from the process of fact finding which often brings me in opposition to the feelings and positions of the radical left.)

Not to start another dispute but to make my own position clear, I think that banning hate groups (or hate speech) in general would have been a better option than only kicking out right wing hate groups. (As it happened a lot of decent right wingers also left this site.) There are also hate groups on the left, and there are religious hate groups. But as I said before I am not the owner of this site and I agree that something had to be done. We will see how it works out.

Keeping the forum strictly Taoist would lead to a fundamentalist and sectarian forum. Not my cup of tea! Besides - who is going to separate the true Taoists from the false? I hope this suggestion of flowing hands will be ignored.

Could be that that is what we are seeing now. Time will tell...

@ Sean We will have to see how things develop. I hope that I'm proven wrong, and that the main focus here will return to Taoism and spirituality. You are right, it's too early to say at this point. We'll see. As to ideological debates, I've had enough of them. I made my point, and you made yours.

My fear is coming true. With the expulsion of the right wing Bums the focus has not returned to Taoism and spirituality but has swung the other way to left wing apologetics. The problem here isn't with right or left wing Bums: the basic problem lies in the fixation on political issues and the addiction to ideological battles about who is right or wrong. Such discussions seldom if ever result in people changing their opinion, and thus they don't help in creating a better world (from whatever perspective). Yes - I hear the protests rising: But we can't let the right wing bullshitters have their way! No indeed we can't, but we will not stop them by preaching, shouting, or debating either. It is my impression that people who turn to Trump do so in large measure exactly because they are sick and tired of being criticized and preached to by the radical left. So we are achieving the exact opposite of what we want.

@ Earl Grey Thank you for the information. There is probably at the moment too little information/research to decide the issue, so I will leave it at that.

The article is clearly biased. But yes - the relation is subtle and complicated. For if there were large direct effects, than mass shootings would happen on a massive scale. The latter isn't the case so the general effect of playing shooter games has to be small. But this might be different for already disturbed individuals. Has any relevant research been done on the latter?

Don't forget the role of computer games, and then there is the copycat thing.

@ MildMouse23 Ah - this is just as bad as the right wing rants you are protesting against. We don't need ranting from whatever side.

Well - that's the problematic thing about all this. It's like cutting off one leg to save the rest of the body. On the other hand something had to be done. Anyhow, I think that for a Taoist there is or should be no place for triumphalism at this point. The Taoist general does what has to be done on the battlefield, but he doesn't take any pride in it and he mourns the casualties. Personally I think that it would have been better to ban political discussions and not people, or to close those parts of the forum where political discussions are being held. After all this site isn't devoted to politics. But then again I am not the owner of this site, and I can understand that Sean is pissed off as he sees his site being invaded by his political opponents. A right-wing Sean (if such were possible) would be equally pissed off when his site was taken over by left-wing radicals. - So it's mixed feelings all over again.

Unnecessarily bringing in political issues can destroy otherwise healthy and productive discussions about Taoism and spirituality. There are (or should I say were) some definitely right-wing Bums here on the forum who had much valuable things to say regarding Taoism and spirituality. It is my opinion that in such cases it is much better to leave politics out and have a fruitful discussion, than to bring politics in and end with name-calling and disturbed relations. Political discussions should be handled with extreme care, or when the participants ain't capable of that better be left out completely. There are more than enough non-spiritual forums on the internet where out-of-control political discussions can be held.

@ Wizz Thank you - much food for thought!

Perhaps the basic stance should not be one of debating but one of inquiring. Debating implies winners and loser, in the case of inquiring all participants could win (even those or perhaps especially those who find out that they have to correct some of their previous views). But its difficult and I often don't live up to it myself...

@ OldDog Lao tsu had some moral rules of thumb to offer, but Chuang tsu hardly so. That's why I think that social and political issues could - in principle - be discussed from a Taoist perspective, but that this would be a very delicate matter indeed. The necessary subtle reasoning would probably fall on deaf ears given the current heated and polarized political atmosphere.

We had some topics about the Trump-topics and what to do about them some time ago, maybe some relevant comments of Marblehead can still be found there?

@ VonKrankenhaus Are you asking me?

Thinking about it somewhat more the suggestion to simply close "The Pavilion" part of the forum looks like a less partisan solution to the problem. The general rule could then become that politics is no longer discussed on this forum unless explicitly in the context of Taoism and/or spirituality. I am afraid there is no simple and pain free way out of the dilemma, but shutting down "The Pavilion" might be the lesser evil.

Ideally Trump (as being an important political phenomenon of today) should be discussed here from a Taoist perspective. But that doesn't happen. As soon as Trump is mentioned Bums (with few exceptions) simply forget their Taoist teachings and practices and start ranting for or against. It's a sad thing indeed.

Mixed feelings about this. I don't like limitations on free speech. But mainly sad that it had to come this far. Trump is the complete opposite of a Taoist ruler with his continuous bragging, delusions of grandeur, lying, name calling, intimidation of opponents, inability of considering legit criticism, and general lack of common sense. This guy behaves like a spoiled child, not as a wise man. Which is a very dangerous thing for a president of the US. I hope we get through his presidency without to much damage to the US and the world at large. Seeing this guy idolized by a great many Bums has been an unpleasant reminder of the simple fact that otherwise very sensible people can greatly err in political matters without being aware of it. So I have mostly avoided participating in Trump-related discussions considering them as a hopeless waste of time. But I didn't like how those discussions (if you may even call them that) took up so much of the energy and attention of the Bums to the detriment of what this forum is actually meant to be about. I mentioned this reprehensible derangement of attention in a few topics. Well - to conclude there are many else places on the internet where Trumpists can vent their opinions, and a forum on Taoism and spirituality isn't the most likely place to do so. Sean has a right to restrict the borders of what his forum is about. I think there is (or should be) a place here for talk about politics in relation to Taoism, but I am not sure that such is still possible in the current highly polarized and poisoned political climate...

Always nice to hear some jazz, whether it is Sunday or not.

Correct - this is all somewhat speculative. But of one thing I am fairly certain and that is that technology evolves much faster than our physical constitution. There is a misfit here, and Lao tzu and Chuang tzu were already aware of it.

I refer to a time when we were somewhere in between animals and man, and when there was not yet such a thing as human society or language. We only need to learn about Tao because we live in a world where our natural instincts no longer suffice to tell us what to do. Lao tzu and Chuang tzu promoted the simple life because then we have to learn and train less and we can live more according to our natural instincts. It looks to me that he had great fun writing stories and discussing with (or making fun of) the fellow philosophers of his time. What more reason do you need to get out of bed and go on living? Yes - my mindset has changed over time. I have had to tone down my expectations of life from wanting to become the next Einstein to being a complete nobody. But that's a very long story, and not very interesting.

Well OK. That's only needed because we no longer live like animals. Our natural instincts no longer suffice to keep our cool in modern society. According to my understanding there indeed is no point in waking up in the morning, and there doesn't even need to be a point to it. As long as one feels the drive to keep on living one doesn't need a point to wake up in the morning, and when the drive is gone no point to keep on living will make one go on for long. Maybe the Tao of no Tao is best, but I am too dogmatic for that. So yes I made a choice.