wandelaar

Personally I prefer keeping a middle road in my practices, so I didn't deeply study the possible dangers of extreme forms of meditation and/or chi gong. But as more and more Bums report about what went wrong in their own practice I think it is time to research meditation sickness and related deviations. So this topic is devoted to the study of meditation sickness and related deviations. Bums are invited to provide information and links to further sources about what happens in meditation sickness and related deviations, and what can be done about it. Please don't (mis)use this topic for promoting personal pet theories, you can open other topics about those if you like. Here I prefer well reasoned and researched comments. I haven't placed this in my personal practice topic because I also want non-members to be able to profit from this topic.

A great song indeed:

It's clear that the lyrics are secondary to the music in case of Iron Butterfly's master piece, so it should rather be considered as not a song at all, than as a bad song. But no need to discuss this any further. Bums can listen to the composition on my earlier link to YouTube, and thus form their own opinion of the quality of the composition.

Or leave something to the imagination...

The Garden of Life. What more do you want?

In my mind there is a difference between broad and deep study and/or practice. One cannot have both. I think I know enough by now to see what subjects are worth deep study (and practice), and that will take up a lot of time. So the (maximal) time I have left is very relevant. By the way: Iron Butterfly's In a Gadda da Vida is a master piece! No doubt about that:

That would be the case in the ideal world where one would have infinite time and energy at one's disposal. In actual practise one looks around during one's younger years and tries this and that, but as one grows older and acquires more experience and knowledge (and hopefully some wisdom) it becomes clear that time is running short and that one would do better to focus on the few practices that actually seem to work. And then one no longer bothers about all those other possible and impossible paths that are offered in the spiritual marketplace. So there is a purely practical limit to one's "open, learning inquiring mind". At least that is the point that I think I have currently reached.

@ Spotless You have given a clear description of your experience, and comparable descriptions are to be found in the psychological literature on religion and mystical experiences. I think that the Buddhist idea of the non-existence of the individual self as an autonomic entity is very relevant here. Happily modern psychology is coming to the same conclusion. So although I didn't had a mystical experience myself I think it can be understood as basically the dropping away of the illusion of the existence of an individual self. No need to use mythological or alchemical symbolism. But sadly in our Western society the role of the individual is hugely overvalued, so that the idea of there being no individual self is generally seen as crazy by ordinary people. And that's why some people get the experience and don't recognise it for what is, and consequently get a panic attack, think they have gone mad, or worse.

What do you mean by the whole system?

Was it also very different from the mystical experiences as described by the great mystics and as described in the psychological literature about mystical experiences?

Being approached as a teacher has to be earned. I'm too old to throw away my time, energy and money on following people who pose as teachers without being able to show that they are worth the appellation. For me it's the other way around: only when somebody has accomplishments to show that he is worthy of being called a teacher, then I will regard him as a teacher and show him the kind of respect that goes with it.

That's impossible. With an empty cup there would no longer be a reason to prefer one teacher to another, or to no teacher at all. Most of the stories I read on this forum that are supposed to prove some point of view don't convince me at all, so there is every reason for me to be sceptical about teachers claiming to know this or that on the basis of their own experience.

I think one has to differentiate between unconditional love as a mere feeling (without any implied compulsion to act on it), and real life love that cannot do without acts that prove it's continued existence.

You have also to reckon with the fact that what a teacher considers to be knowledge need not be knowledge according to your own criteria. So even when you are sure that the teacher is of impeccable character, that still doesn't imply that you yourself would have reached the same conclusions (or acquired the same knowledge) when you would have lived through the same experiences as your teacher. Some paths can be bullshit according to your own criteria while being the pinnacle of spirituality according the your teacher, without your teacher necessarily being an idiot or a charlatan.

@ Everything Do you ever watch the news, or care about what is happening in the outside world?

You definitely have a point there. If you don't understand and/or are able to do something than that may mean several things: 1. It's bullshit. 2. It's isn't bullshit, but it is currently beyond one's understanding and/or capability. 3. It's not one's cup of thee, and it only "works" for a certain type of people. So it is indeed delicate to decide what is what. There is always an element of trust and/or distrust involved. I believe distrust isn't altogether a bad thing, but one should be careful not to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

How could that even be possible? Frames limit - that is their power, and that gives them meaning. Saying and approving everything is saying nothing at all. In my opinion the crucial thing is that we as persons must have the guts to leave a particular framework behind if it no longer fits. That's the basis of common sense, science and spiritual development.

Thanks. Understanding why thinking and analysing hinders wu wei will also have to be part of scientifically understanding wu wei. And I don't expect to reach wu wei by means of thinking about it and analysing it. But I just like to think about it and analyse it nevertheless.

Those are good examples.

Time for some basic common sense: all good things become bad when you take too much of it. So it's silly to think that gazing at the sun at noon has to be OK, because one can also watch a sunrise or sunset without a problem. And for those who still care about what happens on the physical plane:

@ Everything Nice to see your posts becoming much more readable so fast!

@ Everything Do you truly want to be read? If so than: 1. Wait until you have something to say before you start typing away. 2. Write in comprehensible sentences. 3. Use some lay out instead of solid unreadable blocks of text.

In fact that would only be common sense, while holding on to a system that's clearly at odds with one's own experiences would just be silly. So the problem is not so much that many people today choose to deviate from the old time orthodox teachings but that mystical experiences don't speak for themselves (whatever those experiencing them might say). Like all experiences even mystical experiences only mean something specific after being interpreted, where the interpretation might well be unconsciously woven into the experience itself. Currently there happen to be so many interpretations that it's hardly possible any longer to discuss mystical experiences and their meaning(s) without creating a big cacophony and metaphysical confusion or dispute.

@ freeform Your position on the non-fundamental character of universal love is logically impeccable, but you cannot win this discussion. Mystical experiences are often seen as objective observations of absolute reality, and not as the inner experiences of fallible human beings that they actually are. That's why critical analysis of those experiences is often brushed aside as irrelevant. And those who had the experience of universal love during a mystical experience will often continue to believe in it no matter what others might say about it. In my opinion mystical experiences do point to something real, but what that is cannot be established on the basis of those experiences alone.

For a scientific viewpoint: https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/science-says-why-we-cant-look-at-the-sun/ As to sunset see here: https://earthscience.stackexchange.com/questions/7661/why-can-i-look-directly-at-the-sun-during-a-sunset-but-not-at-noon