wandelaar

Reading the Chuang tzu one gets the impression that Chuang tzu doesn't like and actually discourages long-term planning. Is that correct? And if so, can a person or organization do well without some form of long-term planning?

Seemingly even a thread that is about a thread that is about Trump leads to trouble...

Please please, stop everybody! Or I will have to start still another topic complaining about the large amount of posts in this thread!

Then half of my proposal is already realized. Time and energy spent on participating in the Trump thread can no longer be spend on other topics of a more Taoist and/or spiritual nature. So the obsessive involvement in the Trump thread must lead to a change of focus. A further issue are the posts that show up in "Activity". If the posts in Off-Grid are also only invisible by signed in members than the other half of my proposal is also already realized. Thanks for the information.

Do posts in the pit (that is in Hun Dun or Primordial Chaos) show up in "Activity"? If not, than I think it would be a great idea to remove discussions like in the Trump thread to the pit. People have a right to discuss what they like and they can also do that in the pit, but - in my opinion at least - they don't have a right to turn a forum devoted to Taoism or spirituality in general into a forum with an almost exclusive focus on contemporary politics. The structure of the forum should reflect that the main focus is Taoism (or spirituality in general) and that discussions on contemporary politics are still possible but should remain a side-issue.

Yes - but where can I find it?

What is the pit?

Perhaps I should have highlighted the red parts?

Yes - that's correct. I personally see no problem in Bums discussing Trump. But - as you say - it has become an obsession. Some Bums participating in that topic no longer know when to stop as both parties want to have the last word. And so the thing is spinning out of control, and the middle way as regards the positions taken and the time invested is lost.

Took a look at Activity to see what is happening. I counted 23 posts in the Talk Trump-topic against 4 posts in all the other topics...

Thank you - but I am not asking how I think about it, because I already know how I think about it. Could you give an example of a thread that you consider political, and explain why you do so?

But then what is a political thread if it ain't a topic that "reflects ideologies and viewpoints, contrasted with one's own view of reality"?

There will be some rare cases like Aetherous , but generally people don't change their political opinion because of online discussions. More often they become more convinced of their political opinions. But in that you will not succeed, because - as I said - generally people don't change their political opinion because of online discussions. And you agreed to that! So why do you think it is different for the respect you think Trump deserves. Very few people are doing something wrong because they think it is wrong. So Trump is also probably thinking that he is doing the right thing. Apart from politics maybe our main difference in this is that I no longer (or not yet again) see the playful aspect of interacting in political discussions. Did you always like political discussions? Or was there a in between time when you rather avoided them?

I have again put some time in reading parts of the 'Talk Trump'-topic to see whether I am wrong after all, and whether the topic could still be useful, interesting and/or funny to participate in. But no - I am not joining the discussion. It's just the biased piling up of (pseudo)arguments for ones own preconceived opinions (while largely ignoring to seriously consider the arguments of the other camp) one sees in most political discussions. I have seen enough of that in my younger days. Apparently Aetherous changed his mind about Trump, so I cannot say that the discussion was completely futile. But my overall impression remains that there is no real discussion going on. It is all about winning the argument (by whatever means), and not about getting to the truth of the matter. And as usual in such heated discussions fallacious arguments abound. And the backfire effect is still in place, although one cannot rule out the occurrence of an occasional exception as the case of Aetherous proves. It would give me a full-time job if I did step into the 'Talk Trump'-thread, and started correcting all the nonsense I found there. But that would only fire up the efforts of those I criticized, to criticize me. And as I would doubtlessly be in the minority I wouldn't have the time and energy to decently answer and consider all the criticisms hurled at me. So it would be a losing battle no matter whether I was right or wrong. Better not to start at all. There are much better ways to keep myself informed about political topics than (heated) internet discussions.

Now did Master Chuang actually give an answer that could be applied in practical circumstances?

Very odd, very very odd!

Is there a video on YouTube or elsewhere where one can learn to pronounce the characters of the Tao Te Ching?

Thanks for all the comments. It's good to hear what others think about all this. So instead of joining in the discussion I will just read and think about what others have to say here. But one thing I want to say: politics are important, and I try to keep informed myself. So don't worry about that.

When we could discuss politics with a playful attitude, that would be fun. But can we?

I am currently reading Lin Yutang's translation of Lao tzu with commentary from the Chuang tzu. Very good!

And did the large amounts of time and energy that are invested in the Trump thread help that come about? Or did it rather lead to the effect that the Bums posting in that topic become all the more convinced of the correctness of their own political points of view, as is to be expected on account of the backfire effect? In my opinion the Trump thread is a clear example of not knowing when to stop, and consequently achieving the opposite of what one wants. And that goes for both camps in the discussion.

Replace God by Tao and you have it. As Tao is the foundation of everything it is also the foundation of you, and me and everybody. But there is no good or bad about it. Lots of enlightened people misused the power they had over their followers.

https://books.google.nl/books?id=YNFiAgAAQBAJ How about this one? What do the Bums think of this book?

Yes - but where do we go now? Couldn't find chapter 59 of the past series...

So what specific topic do I have to go to?