wandelaar

Thank you! I'm not surprised. No use continuing...

Not to start a debate, but just to find out what you are actually saying: does the experience of OldDog quality as proof that TCM works?

Congratulations with the results, but as a test that doesn't prove anything. For one thing you combined it with reasonably good lifestyle habits ... exercise, qigong, etc. So what is the cause of what? Further there was no control group. And thus no control for the placebo-effect. Long story short, you cannot know what was tested. Most if not all people who tell me that they know that TCM, homeopathy, astrology, etc. work do so on the basis of personal experiences. They simply don't want to know what it takes to set up a good scientific experiment (see the medical literature for that), because they are happy with the idea that they have finally found something that (in their opinion) works. So I will not start a (probably useless) debate on that.

Based on personal experience?

Personally I don't know what to think of TCM. But as far as the interpretation of the Chuang tzu is concerned it helps to know that what Master Leisurely Ramble is saying here might have been said by any Chinese traditional medical doctor.

Compare to: Source: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/221674894_The_'Qi'_that_Got_Lost_in_Translation_Traditional_Chinese_Medicine_Humour_and_Healing

Just use the ignore list to clear away the bullshit, and you will be OK.

I thought I knew...

@ OldDog Do you know how to interpret the part on internal alchemy?

I'm not a (religious) Buddhist either, mainly because I don't believe in reincarnation and karma. The (religious) Buddhists were not radical enough. But I think the conception of reality of the Buddhists is correct. The taste of facts (how we appreciate them) is of our own making. Now this is not something specifically Buddhist, because it is also found in Stoicism. And in the West we have the saying: De gustibus non est disputandum. Empty of inherent existence means that the things we ordinarily consider as being the solid building blocks of our world in fact are only ephemeral processes that come and go and thus have no inherent existence of their own. This closely parallels the modern scientific outlook on the physical world.

Fear can easily become a self amplifying loop. Thus: - You get a shiver for whatever reason - You think about what could be the reason and your attention for scary signals increases - You get another shiver because of what you imagine could happen. - This is interpreted as a sign that something scary is really happening - The shivers and fear increase and are interpreted as more proof that something is definitely going wrong - And so on...

Then let's wait for those who know about internal alchemy to give their interpretation of what is said here...

It will take some time before I get used to the style of Stosh... But not everything of this text has been discussed yet. Here is an obscure reference to maybe (?) internal alchemy:

It may even have been a ghost. That's one more reason why Stosh is so dead wrong on this issue. How can we be sure there are no ghosts? It doesn't seem likely from a scientific point of view, but the viewpoints of science may change in time. Nevertheless Stosh writes: Yes! But the text isn't about lying, deceiving, manipulating someone concerning concrete everyday facts, but about the interpretation of supposed paranormal phenomena. That's a different thing. Besides: was Master Ramble a friend or parent of Duke Huan? Nothing in the text says so. It may even be that Master Ramble wasn't in a position to flatly contradict Duke Huan and go home safely. So despite all his talk about "telling the truth" it is Stosh himself that is greatly distorting the picture as presented in the text. Master Ramble did what he could do in the circumstances, and was successful at that. He presented an alternative interpretation of the experience that Duke Huan had, and then: So in the story it isn't even clear whether the duke suddenly realised that it all depended on his interpretation what the "ghost" meant, or that he took the new interpretation as his new truth. Between friends one can choose how one would like the other to behave: 1) Always tell the truth as you see it; 2) Help the other to further evolve his own world view; 3) Maybe something else. But the text that this topic is about says nothing at all about what should happen between friends, or parents and children.

@ Stosh Still the same! Lots of strong language, but no arguments to speak of.

There are simple examples from World War II where telling the truth to the Germans would mean the death of many innocent people. But to get back to the text: there would be a problem when Duke Huan was lead to a more unrealistic point of view than he already had just in order to cure him, but that didn't happen. What did happen was that one sick making unrealistic point of view was replaced by another more healthy optimistic unrealistic point of view. And that is some progress.

The deal is clear enough: Master Ramble helped Duke Huan to change his interpretation of events from a sick making point of view to a more healthy optimistic point of view. Master Ramble solved the problem in a realistic manner, taking into account what would be acceptable to Duke Huan as far as changing his point of view was concerned. A perfectly Taoist approach! But the 'help' of Kuan Chung consisted in answering: "Your servant saw nothing." The truth and nothing but the truth, I suppose. But after which Duke Huan didn't change his point of view, and consequently got sick. Prinzipienreiterei doesn't work in real life. As they say: "Jede Konsequenz führt zum Teufel."

Indeed - Master Ramble succeeds in curing Duke Huan. That's what matters. As a Taoist Master Ramble doesn't care about having or winning an argument.

Master Ramble is using Skilful Means (or Taoist tactics) to help Duke Huan with overcoming his illness without having to tell him he is a fool to believe in ghosts. He can do so because of his superior insight into the human psyche, including an appreciation of the placebo-effect.

The implications and nature of the placebo-effect are far from trivial...

Has anybody read the book Yin and yang: the Taoist harmony of opposites by J.C. Cooper? I can't find much information about it.

You may have your fun. haha But since you quoted me, I did get an email-notification. Of course I already read what I could about the author and her books to get an idea of her take on things. But specifically about the book of this topic I found almost nothing.

An early description of the placebo-effect?

There is a timeless aspect to who you are that was before you were and will be after you are gone, but that is not the person you are right now. It is the person you are right now that has to live right now. Don't disengage with that.

Here is a free pdf from Pregadio: http://www.goldenelixir.com/files/The_Way_of_the_Golden_Elixir.pdf Looks good, but there appears to be no paperback version...