wandelaar

Thank you, but I have no experience with either Javascript or Python. We could do something else though. Could you consult the I Ching about the question on how to proceed with this topic?

Here's what Chad Hansen has to say about it:

That will again depend on the type of Taoism. I don't think a philosophical Taoist needs believing in any religious sense.

@ Michael Sternbach I can think of two uses of the proposed method: 1. An alternative method for throwing the I Ching. 2. A way to scientifically verify whether or not something special is happening with the chances of finding specific hexagrams. Personally I am most interested in 2. because it would be a revolutionary scientific discovery when the chances of random experiments would behave radically different from normal in case they are used in throwing the I Ching. That would then be the long sought after repeatable experiment proving the reality of paranormal phenomena beyond doubt. Sadly I am not very experienced in computer programming myself...

Has anybody here seen something like the proposed method of throwing the I Ching before? It would be very strange when something like it wasn't thought of and researched before. But in that case it would be interesting to see what were the results then.

No - it's more dynamic than that. My own wisdom is developing as I grow older, and at the same time I come to understand more and more (but still not everything) of the wisdom of Lao tzu and Chuang tzu.

Being obsessed about it would go against Taoism (at least for someone beyond the early stages of exploration). But simply asking the question as Lost in Translation did and discussing possible answers might be a way to learn more about what it means to be a Taoist.

No. It's not pure factual (or even specialist) knowledge. Chuang tzu (and Lao tzu) give the impression of being ahead of me as regards their view of life, and I appear to be heading in their direction. The things that I gradually come to discover about and value in life are already in their books. So that is what I meant by "there are people that I consider wiser than myself". They have progressed further along the road.

@ Limahong No use to post all those comments: you are on my list of ignored users. However I did take a look just now to see what was happening. But I still see no common ground as a basis for discussion.

A Taoist seeking immortality might indeed wish to ignore or belittle other forms of Taoism as unwanted for distractions from the supreme purpose of reaching immortality. A philosophical Taoist on the other hand might wish to remove all supernatural aspects of Taoism so as to arrive at a common sense view of life that doesn't need any form of belief. My own opinion on this is that philosophical Taoists who take the Chuang tzu seriously must try to be able to understand all legit forms of Taoism by viewing things from the particular perspectives of those forms of Taoism. One must be able to actually play with ones perspective on things to reach the freedom of mind that the Chuang tzu recommends. The practical use of this is a greatly expanded spectrum of possible forms of engaging with the world as compared to getting stuck in one sectarian perspective only.

Lets take the silly hats for an example. Suppose somebody claims to be a Master Taoist and founder of his own superior lineage of Taoism on the basis only of wearing a silly hat of his own design, and then subsequently sells more of those hats to his followers for high prices. In that case I see no problem in calling that a farce. This example was willingly extreme, and there may very well be lots of doubtful cases in between complete nonsense and legit form of religious, philosophical or esoteric Taoism. I only wanted to make sure that such complete nonsense as the given example in my opinion should not in any way be called valid.

Yes - but there are people that I consider wiser than myself, and in those cases I put much more time and energy than usual in trying to make sense of what they have to say.

I tried yoga lessons (including visualizations) a long time ago, but it didn't work for me. As to Chuang tzu, I take his advise very seriously but in those cases where I can find no sensible interpretation of his words I follow my own way.

If there were an absolute criterion for validity it might be that one form of Taoism is more valid than another. But who is to judge about the absolute criterion for validity? (The same problem is discussed somewhere in the Chuang tzu). So I think it is not so much that all different forms of Taoism are equally valid (for how could we know that?), but that all forms of Taoism are valid on the basis of their own criteria of validity. And that proposition is much easier to accept, because than we don't have to betray our own form of Taoism. Objectively speaking the degrees of validity of for instance esoteric and philosophical Taoism are not equal but incomparable. The only thing that can be said is that all forms of Taoism (apart from complete nonsense) are valid from the perspective of their own criteria of validity. And the last thing is a simple fact. Labeling is an absolute necessity in daily life. One could not talk about anything without words (= labels).

Don't see any problem in defining a Taoist as long as one recognizes there are different types of Taoists that each need their own definition to be precise. But in my opinion one goes against the very basics of Taoism by claiming to be a real Taoist as opposed to Taoists of other persuasions, because in that case you value the claim to a label and corresponding status above the experience itself.

@ Lost in Translation Again you will have to specify what kind of a Taoist you mean: - Is he* on some esoteric path? - Is he a religious Taoist believing in gods, spirits, immortals and all that? - Is he a philosophical Taoist? - Is he someone who just wants to call himself a Taoist for whatever reason, without caring about what it means? As to philosophical Taoists I think it's all about a certain view of life and a corresponding personality structure. Because the basics of early Taoist philosophy are extremely simple ("don't overdo things", "don't imagine you are something special", "recognize the world as it is") it happens that even some ordinary western people know and live by those basic rules without even having learned about philosophy (let alone eastern philosophy). Taoist philosophy is just a bunch of aphorisms. It's the intellectuals (like myself) who have a lot to learn, or rather to unlearn. As to personality structure, being a simple person is a great advantage when you want to be a philosophical Taoist, because then you are almost there already. So I think being a philosophical Taoist is not so much about doing certain things. It is more about thinking about and experiencing life in a certain way. And yes - that will then show in what you do. * I'm not going to write "he/she" every time, when I write "he" it's to mean "he or she" when both apply.

As to the Taoist logic that's used in the Chuang tzu, that's mainly a form of analogical reasoning. So I finally found an answer to this topic.

Is there something that might be called Taoist logic?

Here's one in English:

@ cheya I don't plan to do internal alchemy myself. I just wondered how much of it would be approved by Chuang tzu himself.

The method I propose here can be used for serious real life consultations and interpretations of the I Ching so it does not misuse the I Ching for materialistic purposes. Unless of course you ask the wrong questions. The only extra benefit of my method is that we get a picture of the relative frequencies (a histogram) of all hexagrams in stead of just one hexagram. The picture then gives us scientifically interesting information about whether there is a deviation from pure chance in the results of the I Ching. I don't know whether the proposed method of throwing the I Ching has already been described by someone else.

In the proposed experiment each throw of the I Ching would consist of many thousands of randomly generated hexagrams. Because of the large number of hexagrams generated the number of times a particular hexagram turns up will be a measure for the likelihood of that particular hexagram to turn up for the question or situation investigated in the circumstances as they were at the moment. So in stead of just one hexagram this method gives a picture of all hexagrams with their measured likelihood of appearing in case a more conventional method had been used. Now if the hexagrams turn up purely by chance than no consistent pattern will be visible in the pictures (or histograms), but if the I Ching selects particular hexagrams appropriate to the questions or situations for which it is consulted than each (or most) pictures would have to show that with each throw (consisting of many thousands of randomly generated hexagrams) some hexagrams are much more likely that others. Is the general idea clear now?

Does the Chuang tzu in its current form contain pieces that don't fit in with the general philosophy of Chuang tzu? What do the Bums think about it?

Because of the quote I tried the following: During breathing in I imagined the breath to come in via my feet and legs to my belly. I noticed that my attention was thereby displaced from my head to my lower body, and that in that way my head with all its raving thoughts calmed down. So apart from possible esoteric meanings the extra technique from the quote is actually of help in my daily meditation.

I put that part in because forcing oneself to live like a Taoist would be missing a crucial part of being a Taoist. As I understand it now the joy and effortlessness comes from: - Realising that you are on the exact road that you want to be on. - Applying the playful game of changing your perspective as it befits the situation. - Enjoying the creative solutions that your subconsciousness comes up with when it is no longer restricted by egocentric considerations. - Appreciating the little pleasures the world affords us at (almost) no cost when you no longer care about cheap and expensive, big and small, important and unimportant, etc. - Being able to take it easy because you no longer feel the need to prove yourself. There are probably some more, but you get the idea. A very good book on being a Taoist in daily life is: https://www.amazon.com/Tao-Daily-Life-Enlightenment-Illuminated/dp/1585425834 (I don't consider myself a full-blown Taoist as yet, but I think I understand and sometimes experience what the sages were after.)