wandelaar

That connection with Lao tzu and Chuang tzu is also discussed in the book by Roth. I have so many books already that their study is now actually driving me away from practicing the methods myself. That's why I don't want to buy many more, however interesting they might be.

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_construction_of_gender Who is forcing you to accept their ideological preconceptions?

I think it is a sad thing, and it doesn't make me laugh.

@ Daemon I have already studied the scientific research concerning meditation. What I was saying is that the exact form of the type of meditation commended by Lao tzu and Chuang tzu is unknown because our historical and textual sources are not clear enough about it. We can only make some educated guesses.

I don't think there is enough information about it in the original and historical sources to allow for detailed instructions.

Thank you, but I have already bought Original Tao by Roth.

Does anybody know something about this book? https://www.amazon.com/Yin-Yang-Elisabeth-Rochat-Vallee/dp/1872468438

It's the believers that are wrecking this topic. I wouldn't have started this topic if I wasn't open to new evidence.

And the voidisyinyang-show goes on and on. No matter what the topic is about, or who is listening....

This passage seems to concern the unfavorable comparison of Kungsun Lung to Master Chuang, but what arguments are there actually brought forward to justify this comparison. Wouldn't it be more in the spirit of Chuang tzu to equally value both of them for the special characteristics they have. After all, the turtle is no better and no less than the frog.

Then what would you call the kind of investigation as used in the book Original Tao by Harold D. Roth?

@ Daemon What in your opinion happens when a hypothesis is disproved? This is the crucial question that when honestly answered will lead you to a more realistic view of science. My own conception of science is close to the ideas of: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imre_Lakatos The best way to get at the kind of meditation Lao tzu and Chuang tzu (or those writing in their name) commended is studying the literary and historical sources. It's not exact science, but I like to call it science nevertheless as it is the most scientific approach conceivable given the material at hand. Whether that kind of meditation works is an entirely different question.

The few useful posts in this topic have by now been effectively drowned in irrelevant preaching by the believers....

OK - to make it all work we have to find out which site or application to use. And maybe we need some help from the moderators. That is: if they also consider it a good idea to have some application for testing PK running on The Dao Bums as well. But lets start simple. Searching on the internet I found this site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Random.org You could for instance use Coin Flipper or Dice Roller. This will do for personal tests, but we will have to find a way to view the results directly on this website later.

Last attempt: this topic is not about chi gong, videos, medical issues, magicians, fake, etc. It's about setting up a simple experiment with an online random number generator, and finding some people willing to test their supposed PK ability. Why make it more difficult than it is?

The point of this topic is to set up a PK experiment that anyone claiming to have PK power can do. Now as there happen to be online random number generators the experiment doesn't have be done in an expensive far off laboratory, but can be done at home just as easily as writing a post on The Dao Bums. And if we arrange the experiment properly the results will be available here for all to see. What more could one wish for?

Yes - it's important to choose a real random number generator. Otherwise the PK would have to be much stronger to influence the results.

I usually write "Lao tse" in place of "Lao tzu" and "Chuang tse" in place of "Chuang tzu". But why? What reasons are there to choose the one or the other?

My position on the existence or non-existence of the paranormal is probably the same as yours. I consider paranormal phenomena unlikely to exist. My point of disagreement concerns your implicit definition of the paranormal. Paranormal doesn't mean "human capabilities that are without empirical foundation", but "human capabilities that are impossible from the viewpoint of current scientific understanding". So when there would be a reproducible experiment proving the existence of paranormal events they would not thereby stop to be paranormal. For paranormal phenomena to stop being paranormal our current scientific understand of ourselves and the world would also have to change dramatically. And that would probably take some time, possibly years or decades. In the meantime paranormal phenomena would than have the status of anomalies. Yes - that's the science used in the book. The book is using textual and historical evidence, as opposed to believing the legends told within esoteric traditions.

That's not the way science works. But we don't have to discuss that, if you don't wish to. Those kind of discussions are generally useless anyway. Yes - that's what I meant.

@ Daemon I think one could achieve extraordinary results by extraordinary methods, but I doubt (that is: am not convinced) that one could thus achieve paranormal effects. Is that what you mean?

@ steve It depends on what you want. If you want to meditate as part of following Lao tzu and Chuang tzu, I doubt that anything more than the most simple forms of meditation is necessary. But if you want to be able to do extraordinary things you will probably need extraordinary methods. I don't think Lao tzu and Chung tzu were promoting that we should become wizards.

For a scientific book that tries to reconstruct the form of meditation of the early Taoists see: https://books.google.nl/books?id=rJd7o9Ub960C

Where is the crying emoticon?

Criticism can be very useful, and one would do oneself a disservice by ignoring all and any criticism at one's own opinions. In fact one can learn much more from well meant criticism than from likes and applauds. But it's the criticism of people who don't know what they are talking about or who are trying to win a debate by whatever means to boost their own ego that irritate me. Such discussions tend to take up huge amounts of time and energy without any positive result. I much rather put those guys on my Ignored Users list, so as to block that type of discussion already at the beginning. As Lao tzu said it's best to solve problems before they arise.