wandelaar

No use debating the obvious. We have been through that before. There are descriptions of meditation practices in the Chuang tse and some more concealed ones in the Tao Te Ching. Examples have already been given in another topic not too long ago and links have been posted. If Stosh wishes to defend there aren't any meditation practices worthy of the name in the Chuang tse or Tao Te Ching he is free to do so, but that's not what I started this topic for. So I will ignore it. I want to learn something more about the actual form those meditation practices most probably had. When there are any other ideas apart from the ones already posted about the most probable form of the meditation practices we are talking about here, I like to read about them.

A "working understanding of life" is a philosophy. Philosophy doesn't need to be impractical.

It looks like this book is the most relevant for finding out what kind of meditation Lao tse and Chuang tse recommended: https://books.google.nl/books?id=rJd7o9Ub960C As to philosophical and religious Taoism, they may not have existed as separate movements at the time of Lao tse and Chuang tse (and even Taoism itself might not have existed as a separate movement at the time) but that doesn't mean that the different terms philosophical and religious Taoism are still meaningless today.

This article might be relevant: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/269597290_Bimodal_Mystical_Experience_in_the_Qiwulun_Chapter_of_Zhuangzi (The pdf can be downloaded.)

I have looked up the titles given by dawei on the internet, but those books unhappily are not what I am looking for. The texts of Kohn are full of references to things I don't want to know about. Currently "knowing when to stop" has a high priority for me, so I don't plan to delve into the hundreds of esoteric Taoist methods and schools. I'm on the road of philosophical Taoism and just want to know what meditation practices are most probably referred to in the Chuang tse and the Tao Te Ching, and the investigation has to be based on the texts themselves, on references in other ancient texts, on archeological finds, etc. Certainty will not be possibly, but the reconstruction of the meditation practices in the Chuang tse and Tao Te Ching has to be as scientific as possible. At least that is what I am looking for.

So the "the dregs of the ancients" ain't so bad after all.

Yes - I also consider Chuang tse a sage. But what does he (or one of his followers?) write: So his own work would also be "the dregs of the ancients" ?

Was Chuang tse a sage? If so then...

So "following nature" could be described as not violating one's nature?

It turned out to be the best solution, but it could just as easily have failed. If the lock had been seriously damaged I doubt that a simple magnet would have worked. Maybe then dynamite would have been the solution of choice? What I am most pleased about is that I didn't consciously reason my way to it, but that the solution just popped up in my head some time after I had thought about how to solve the problem myself. Those ideas always come up when I am doing something else (no longer thinking about the problem), so they are as much a surprise to me as they are to someone else.

Problem solved! Wondering how I could repair it myself it suddenly occurred to me that I could try to "help" the lock by externally applying a magnet. First the lock didn't appear to react at all but then I noticed the key did, so I tried to open the lock by means of the key with the magnet on it. And then it just opened.

Latest developments: Today I phoned again and this time I was connected to the firm that is to repair the postbox. So I again gave my phone number and was told to wait for a call. The woman I was talking to couldn't say when the repair was expected to take place. I just had to wait..... Part of me is smiling at the stupidity of this whole thing, and part of me is slowly getting more angry as time goes on. Al the same it is a nice experiment to test how much I can handle before losing my temper.

Does Chuang tse discourage anything that goes beyond some simple forms of meditation as spiritual exercises? Are there other relevant parts of the Chuang tse?

Looked at bluntly this advice is no advise at all, or rather a declaration of the impossibility of giving any general advise concerning what to do.

I think this refers to a very problematic issue: the difference between natural and unnatural. Is it unnatural to wear glasses? If so I wouldn't be able to read books any more. But perhaps that's natural as older people are no able to do everything younger people can. But than is it even natural to read books anyway? And so one quickly gets stuck in a quagmire of philosophical problems. But as the way of Tao is supposed to be "following nature" it's an important issue anyway. How do other Bums see this?

Sounds like you would be an ideal blues hero.

It certainly makes a difference for me. It's fun. It's rather that I consider not ultimately useful but indifferent things as the ideal playing ground for grown up children like myself.

I still appreciate some excitement in my life. As a little child I liked building fortresses of sand on the beach knowing full well that they would soon be washed away by the upcoming tide. Now as a grown up I am building fortresses of thought and the excitement is no less, even when they eventually will prove to be pointless.....

The text sounds like Stoic advice: do your best but find contentment within yourself, however external circumstances might evolve.

The idea seems to be that we as individuals are all relatively unimportant in the greater scheme of things, what could be used as a foundational insight for the humble, non-assuming, non-aggressive, "don't overdo things"-approach characterizing the Taoist way of life.

I still see a problem in being without goals: I just don't like being without goals, and achieving nothing. It feels like a wasted day when I go to bed without have accomplished anything. Couldn't it be that wanting to achieve something is part of our inborn nature, at least for some of us. And that forcing ourselves to wander aimlessly when we feel an inner drive to accomplish something is literally unhealthy for some of us.

Uhh

No - don't think so. For one thing atoms have a finite size so the physical square will not have perfectly straight sides. Perfect squares only exist in the imagination of the mathematician (and perhaps in some platonic world of forms). And to be useful in mathematics they have to be perfect, for else the theory would become extremely complicated. That makes this paradox stand out as something fundamentally different from the others. In the everyday world perfection is at best useless and more likely counterproductive. But in the world of mathematics imaginary perfect objects are indispensable to arrive at an elegant and useful theory. But when the "great square" is the Earth the paradox would become a simple fact as the Earth indeed has no corners. But I don't know whether that was already known at the time.

I am currently reading a relatively new translation (in Dutch) of the Chuang tse, and in the chapter 2 debating controversial questions is considered completely useless. Some extra (relativistic) reasons are given there besides "outbreaks of hostility".

That brings up another possible application: as the reaction of the student to the twisting of his nose is likely to be immediate it shows how his conscious ego need not be involved in the way he behaves. But as his reaction is clearly his nevertheless, the illusion of an autonomic ego is experientially disproved.