wandelaar

Without a translation it has no (clear) meaning to me. I can't read the original Chinese text.

Because Lao tse disapproves of discussions. But one has to develop one's philosophy somehow and that's hardly possible on our own. So the Socratic method may be some kind of middle way between keeping silent and loosing one's temper. This one? https://www.amazon.com/Socrates-Enlightenment-Path-William-Bodri/dp/1578631912

Maybe this book is relevant to the relation between Lao tse and Socrates: https://www.amazon.com/Tao-Socrates-Eastern-Western-Philosophy/dp/1934849510/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1525693427&sr=8-1&keywords=tao+of+socrates But I don't own it and haven't read it. Is anybody here familiar with this book?

I have looked up some other translations of chapter 41, and it makes quite a difference whether you translate tao by 'path' or by 'Tao'. How to deal with that?

I think Lao tse would also take the optimistic approach whenever possible, but he wouldn't make a dogma or unconditional belief out of it. When necessary Lao tse considers the use of force acceptable, but it has to be used with the utmost caution. So there is a balanced approach even here.

Same with me - but I still find it difficult at times, particularly when that means an opponent will have the last word with a statement I consider provably wrong. I think it basically has to do with a concern about my own status within the group, something that's probably a leftover of human evolution. That's one of the reasons I think follow your own nature cannot be the whole story. We still have to educate ourselves on some points. Further I always like to have some real (physical) books concerning things I consider important on the way. I prefer a real book above e-books or links, because a real book becomes a visible reminder of something important (whereas an e-book or link can easily drown in a mass of other information that is just as easily stored as it is forgotten).

@ cheya Thank you! But I recently counted that I already have 9 books with a translation and commentary of the Tao Te Ching. So I have decided that it's time to see what I can do with it.

That's not what I mean. I already have some idea of the general meaning of the chapter, and that partially corresponds to the posts of others here. But I like to read more about what the individual paradoxes are trying to say.

Nice to see all those different perspectives. It's much more relaxed now using the Socratic Method and having no position to defend.

But are there no specific meanings to the sentences?

So what is your interpretation of: "The bright path seems dim"?

Can "carries the seed of the opposite" also mean seeming to be its opposite, or do you mean something deeper?

Lets take the first one: "The bright path seems dim". Not overdoing things would than mean: "Taking a Taoist path will be anything but spectacular, and don't make a show of it either". So a Taoist path will seem to be the path of an outcast or insignificant nobody from the perspective of ordinary men. (Unless of course you happen to be the emperor or another high official, but even than Lao tse advises to proceed in a humble fashion.) Do you see something else in the paradox beyond my rational explanation?

This is also a question I have been wondering about. Given the meaning of the broken and unbroken lines (and possibly of the changing and unchanging lines) how can you somehow arrive at the meaning of the trigrams by just considering the pattern of lines in the trigrams. It seems to me that the meaning given to the trigrams largely ignores the meanings already given to the lines. And - at least in my mind - this results in an illogical jumble of meanings that obstructs my further understanding of the I Ching. But I don't like this conclusion, so maybe someone here can make me see how it all fits together?

@ Michael Sternbach That's right: some optimism may be helpful to actually achieve more in your life that you would have achieved without it. But I have no problem with a modicum of optimism as regards daily life, that is not what I protested against. This topic concerns the unverifiable claim that the ultimate nature of reality is awareness and that the physical world is just a dreamlike illusion. Well - maybe it is, and maybe it isn't. So let those who want to believe believe, but don't accuse those who don't want to believe of dogmatism (as was done in the article). That is the point I wanted to make. Further: unverifiable beliefs aren't always helpful, and in some cases can actually have quite serious undesirable consequences. I am thinking of religious wars and terrorism.

The feel good philosophies of the irrefutable type (and that's what I am talking about) all deal with subjects or situations that are impossible to verify. And that's also the reason why you can ignore them all, without thereby invalidating the know how to live your daily life. So I don't choose any one of them, because they are all highly unlikely to be true. And even if one of them was true, there is still no way of knowing which one it is. So I am kind of a Skeptic as far as those unknowable things are concerned.

@ thelerner I have no need for feel good philosophies when I know them to be probably false. I don't like deliberately fooling myself. The idea of my naming a few possibilities was to show how they can be invented on the spot. But there are countless possibilities, all different. All you need to invent one is some imagination. You wrote: That's right. The way of Lao tse and Chuang tse is to acknowledge the fact, and life with it. That's why I like it, and that's what I am trying to do.

I am wondering how we are supposed to discuss on this forum?

Yes - it would be a nice natural explanation, because 12 months fit into a year. So the number 12 is suggested by our natural environment as having something to do with cycles of life and change. And because symbols consisting of 12 lines may have been too complicated to work with, using (pairs of) hexagrams may have been a good alternative.

https://translate.google.nl/#auto/en/knikkerhoofd https://translate.google.nl/#auto/en/marmeren kop https://translate.google.nl/#de/en/Marmorkopf And now for something completely different: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marblehead,_Massachusetts

Inderdaad! Marmeren kop mag blijven, wat voor taal we ook spreken....

Same with me. Sometimes I help other people, sometimes I don't. It's inconceivable to me that I should fully participate in developing a perspective that radically deviates from the path I am currently going. Say - some young man is dreaming of a criminal career, should I help him to achieve his goals? Or less extreme: somebody wants to promote a way of life that I have reason to believe would eventually lead to disaster. In such a case I am not prepared to "help" such a person realize his dreams. Even in completely harmless cases there are limits to the time and energy I want to invest in other people. Yes - actually I'm a bad one.

Do you mean I should enter discussions with the purpose of helping other people to develop their own thoughts and perspectives?

As I am Dutch I hope my improvised "English" is readable...

Could the number 12 = 2 * 6 have anything to do with it? See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/12_(number) It's a natural choice for time reckoning, periodical phenomena and changes in nature. And as 12 would possibly be to cumbersome, 6 might be considered second best?