wandelaar

On happiness and ancient Chinese philosophy (including Taoism) see: https://personal.eur.nl/veenhoven/Pub2000s/2008e-full.pdf

It leads nowhere. Time spend on discussing postmodernism cannot be spend on something else. And there are much more interesting things to discuss here. I have a lot to (un)learn and don't want to waste my time.

I have said too much about postmodernism already. It's useless to add anything more. Besides the thing has already been demolished several times. See in case you are interested: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_postmodernism But postmodernism is immune to criticism, so why waste any more time on it?

You are right about there being such assumptions. I had to think hard about what you were talking about, but then I realized that it still happens that somebody questions something that for me is almost axiomatic. Then when there are new arguments brought forward I will reconsider the assumption. I don't see how we could live completely without assumptions (at least not as a human being) but one could perhaps live without unrecognized assumptions.

I still have a hard time dealing with concrete problems in a Taoist manner. That's not as it should be, I know. The solutions should come naturally. But that's not the way it works for me, I have to first understand the approach and then let it sink in. Only after that can it become second nature. So that's the approach followed in the topic: find rational cues for my unconscious to play with in the hope of stimulating it to come up with Taoist solutions to the concrete problems of life. I like to hear what other members of this forum think about it. Some ideas to start with: - Getting things done in a Taoist manner means not focusing on the supposed "things" in the situation and not focusing on your own "doing" but instead on the relations between the things and empty spaces (or non-things) and on the natural evolution of the processes involved.

Yes - that's the doctrine of the two truths. Conventional and absolute truth. It's also found in Buddhism. And probably in all religions with a mystical component. It doesn't sound nice 'two truths', but I guess we have to live with it or stop living altogether.

What I protested against is the idea that there is nothing to choose because all Ways are fundamentally the same, or because what we think are our own choices is actually Tao acting through us, or that everything is good as it is because it derives from Tao, or.... In a metaphysical sense that might all somehow be true but in practical life it doesn't get you anywhere. It's like people coming up with Gödel's theorem when you only want to pay for the bread you just bought.

I agree with that. So my plan is to give both reason and intuition their place. In this topic I am trying to capture in words what are the basic principles of the Taoist approach to life. Even Lao tse and Chuang tse tried to do just that, so I guess it's not wrong headed to try to do so. Next phase would be learning the principles by heart. Followed by forgetting all about it. Sounds crazy, but the idea is to let the unconscious mind play with the discovered principles as it sees fit, but only after the rational mind has done all it could in figuring out what the principles actually are. Frankly I don't believe there is nothing more to Taoism than getting rid of the unnatural remains of our education and upbringing. Even Lao tse according to legend read every book he could lay his hands on before he began advising against bookish knowledge. And Chuang tse's butcher first had to become thoroughly acquainted with animal anatomy (in the practical sense) before he could effortless cut up an ox. The spiritual core of all sages may be the same, but their practical behavior bears the stamp of their particular religious background. And I see nothing wrong with that. It's exactly the way Taoism differs from other ways that attracts me.

See: http://www.stonewaterzen.org/about-zen/shikantaza/ But I have no problem with Zen meditation, and I plan to return to my daily practice of zen meditation as soon as possible.

Sounds like Zen practice to me. I did that some time. One hour per day, just sitting. Problem is I don't have the will power to do everything at the same time. Now I am concentrating on the Taoist way of life, and so there doesn't remain any time and energy to continue my daily meditation, taking a walk in the evening, etc. The television and radio are already gone, so that's no distraction either. I do think meditation will have to become a regular part of my life to fully apply and appreciate the Taoist way of life. But I don't believe that will be enough. If that were the case Zen and Taoism in practice would be indistinguishable, but they have a decidedly different flavor. It's like a different meal cooked from the same ingredients. And I think it's not in the spiritual core but in the practical application that the difference is to be found.

I'm still hoping to reach that point sometime.

It's the same misunderstanding over and over again. Why would Lao tse and Chuang tse have recommended their own approach if it didn't really matter which way you follow anyhow? Yes - that's the appropriate response! If every way was OK then preferring just one would also be OK. I don't like the half-hearted post-modern form of relativism that's used to muddle clear thinking and to attack taking a stand. If you really take relativism seriously your own relativism (as an ideological stand) will dissolve also. And that's where post-modern relativism is insincere, it's selectively used to attack ideological opponents without even realizing it is thereby taking an ideological position itself. If you take relativism seriously only the idea that we are all in the same position as far as absolute knowledge is concerned remains. But then again that search was hopeless to begin with. So after passing the stage of full relativistic doubt you just go on with one illusion less, but daily life just continues and there are still choices to make and stands to take. So for an honest relativist there doesn't change that much. But I fear we have to wait till post-modernism crumbles under it's own absurdity. It's beyond criticism. So I just said what I didn't want to say - because it's a hopeless battle - but I felt I just had to. And so we see that we do what we think we have to do, whether we believe in absolute knowledge or not.

@ Lost in Translation Are you saying I'm already acting naturally in my own way? And it would thus be unnatural for me to learn the way of Lao tse and Chuang tse. But I'm not quite happy with the over-intellectual way I'm living now. I feel practicing Taoism could somehow loosen up my approach to life. And besides that I see it as an interesting experiment to test the practical real-life value of Taoism, not in some special environment, but in daily life itself. You could call that a motivation, but why I feel that way and whether that's the whole story I don't know.

@ Rocky Lionmouth I have saved your post, you made some good points to think about.

I don't get it. There is no why to my motives. So there is nothing to examine. There are just things I like and things I don't like. Maybe a biologist or psychologist could say something more about it, but to me they are just a given, or inner motive force. All I myself could say about it would be (doubtful) rationalizations.

@ Rocky Lionmouth Sorry - but I don't understand your post.

Are there some more general principles?

@ Lost in Translation You are definitely right about me being a guy of the more philosophical type (I can't help it). And as there is room in the philosophy of Chuang tse for all kinds of people maybe I shouldn't be so obsessed about the practical applications of Taoism. Is that what you are hinting at?

That's also an important point, being a philosophical Taoist implies being able to see situations from multiple perspectives and thus not being hindered by narrow thought patterns in finding solutions to life's problems.

@ Lost in Translation I am not a native speaker. So I may be using English words in an unusual manner. Where I wrote "should" I didn't mean "morally should". What I meant was that actions that don't come naturally are not in the spirit of Lao tse and Chuang tse. And that is a simple fact. There is no moral obligation to act in the spirit of Lao tse and Chuang tse, but because I like philosophical Taoism I'm trying to put it into practice. It's a free choice. It's rather like somebody trying to become a rock star. They should be able to play rock music. Not in any moral sense, but because that's what it's all about.

I did some years of karate until I became to old to keep up the heavy training with mostly younger guys. Martial arts and Chinese paintings are two ways one can see Taoism put into practice. But to be viable as a way of living Taoism should also be applicable in ordinary daily life.

Sorry - wrong button.

@ dawei Thank you. I have read a lot of other translations already so I don't plan to use Derek Lin's as the one definitive translation if such a thing were possible. My first impression is that Derek Lin has some nice practical explanations to offer as to what it means to follow Tao in daily life. And that is exactly what I am looking for.

Well - that kind of unlearning started the moment I as a kid began to think for myself (questioning almost anything ).

That's right. Killing one creature saves the lives of other creatures that would otherwise have been killed by the creature you killed. Good and bad are inextricably mixed up. Absolute goodness is impossible in the world as it is. Taoism recognizes the world as it is. That makes Taoism more rational than other religions that make ethical demands that are impossible to satisfy.